Save Women's Sport - the pearl clutching begins

[Asli]

I feel very strongly on this subject, obviously because my kid has been messed with. So I apologize to anyone whom I hurt with my posts. I didn't mean to.

 

[BlueRidge]

I feel very strongly on this subject, obviously because my kid has been messed with. So I apologize to anyone whom I hurt with my posts. I didn't mean to.

you are good to care.

The lesbian stuff is sad. But I encountered it a few years ago when I was told by the president of the National Organization for Women that she had all the organization's Lesbian Rights signs destroyed because they were not inclusive.

I just accept that lesbians are regarded as cis-gender oppressors who are still living in the 1970s.

You get old, such is life.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

I can't comment in this thread anymore because the experience of reading it makes me ill. I'm going to be ignoring it for my own mental health.

 

[Asli]

The lesbian stuff is sad. But I encountered it a few years ago when I was told by the president of the National Organization for Women that she had all the organization's Lesbian Rights signs destroyed because they were not inclusive.

Kafka's universe has got nothing on our world.

 

[BlueRidge]

Since we kind of got the thread far off from the subject I just want to give my reasons for why I think there should not be an issue with transwomen participating in women's sports.

It seems to me that physical differences among competitors in any sport are a given, so the fact that a transwoman may have some physical advantage really shouldn't be seen as different from any other physical differences among women competing in a sport. Some women are taller in a sport that favors height, or stronger in one that favors strength. These aren't things that trump other factors necessarily depending on the sport, skill may not be so dependent on such factors and all may even out. But ultimately there are physical differences among individuals and when you are the one who doesn't have the advantageous physical feature it can seem like an unfair built in advantage the other person has. This is just how sport is.

Secondly, there's no conceivable situation in which a large mass of transwomen are going to push cis-gender women out of a sport altogether. In any given sport there may be a few women competing who are trans. This is not a threat to cis-gender women; it doesn't take the sport away from them.

I respect those concerned for women's sports which women have had to fight to get on an even footing with men's sports. But as I said above I really caution people to beware of how this issue is being exploited by the far-right for political gain. They are trying to generate a moral panic around transwomen competing in women's sports and much harm will be done if they succeed. People should weigh whether their concerns are worth possibly giving unintentional aid to such vile efforts.

 

[MacMadame]

Gender is a social construct and it is frightening to see people not only assert that it is the central identity one should have but gather in mobs on the internet to bully those who don't see it that way. To me elevating gender over sex is oppression, it alienates people from their bodies, and forces them to search for labels when they should be able to live their lives, presenting and expressing themselves in the ways that work for them not line up with the latest labels that activists have devised.

I don't know where you are getting this but I know at least 5 trans women in real life, some trans men and several non-binary people, and many more trans and non-binary people whose YouTube channels I follow, and not one of them is elevating gender over sex and they all say that there are many ways to be a woman and they all need to be accepted.

And they have felt alienated from their bodies from a very early age before they even knew the term trans. It's not something forced on them by nebulous activists.

But if we are generally critical of puberty blockers for little Russian skater girls, why are they good for anyone else? Surely the physical risks are the same.

We are against puberty blockers for skaters because it's cheating. And depriving people who do not have body dysmorphia of the sort of teenage years that they would normally have had.

It's the same reason we don't give Advil to people who feel fine or hypertension medicine to people who don't have high blood pressure. It's not because they are so incredibly dangerous (my hypertension meds are literally just a mild diuretic). It's because it's inappropriate to take medicine for conditions you don't have.

It's also why I'm sure you wouldn't be critical of giving puberty blockers to girls who have Precocious Puberty.

It is not necessary, in order to champion and protect the rights of transwomen, to minimize the vulnerability faced by their cis sisters.

As a cis woman, I am well aware that trans women are more vulnerable than me just as black cis women are more vulnerable than me. It doesn't take away from my own oppression and vulnerability to recognize that others have it even worse.

Exactly. This is the way the word "gender" has been used for decades, especially in "gender studies" and if a group wants to express something different, it's better to use a different word. If NewSpeak uses many words, including "men" and "women" in different meanings, it becomes impossible to communicate.

And some cultures have had more than two genders for thousands of years. This is a very weak argument. Next, you'll be telling me that they can't be used as a singular without destroying decades of language.

Language changes, notions of gender change. We learn and grow and that requires change. The argument that these concepts are newer and therefore invalid is the exact same argument made to deny women their right to abortion.

1. Now puberty blockers are apparently being given hastily and to a large spectrum of children, some of whom could have gender dysphoria for a number of reasons other than being transgender.

No, they aren't. Puberty blockers are extremely hard to get in the US. Many families have to move to another state to get them just like women have to travel to other states to get an abortion.

And once you go through all the hoops as an adult to be allowed to transition, it's not all smooth sailing either Many doctors won't prescribe hormones to new patients and some won't prescribe them at all. So you have to find someone who takes your insurance and is willing to start you on hormones. And this is in liberal California. I'm sure there are states where it's much worse.

Unless you have a supportive family and really good medical insurance (in the US) and live in the right part of the world, you are going to have a really rough road moving from childhood to adulthood and transitioning.

2. Investigative journalism has uncovered that there is no data about the consequences of these blockers and the doctors themselves are saying they don't know what they're doing and are just hoping for the best.

Again, this is not true. People have been getting puberty blockers to stop early puberty for decades. It's true that there is less data on using them on trans kids but nothing we know about using them on other kids suggests that they are dangerous.

Meanwhile, hetero cisgirls are told they are oppressors.

By whom?? There are always nut cases who express extreme views, especially in academic circles. But 8-year-olds are not being told that they are the oppressors on the playground. And trans kids are being bullied in middle school and high school.

The lesbians here for instance, have lost the places that used to belong to them. They are always swarmed by insistent male people mostly presenting as men, but can't be denied access because they say they are women. Most haven't gone through any kind of transition, they are dressed as men and yet the women are supposed to "pretend" that they are women and be attracted to them.

More TERF talking points. I don't know a single trans woman who wants to date people who don't want to date her. Or cares that some people aren't attracted to them. It's not part of the so-called "doctrine" that cis lesbians have to date anyone who says they are a woman.

So... how many people read "gender self-identification doctrine" and thought "gay agenda." @allezfred is correct. The same arguments that were (and sometimes still are) used against gay people are now being used against trans people, particularly trans women.

In the end I deleted most of my post, because I don't think I'm ready to engage in this discussion, but thanks for speaking up here. I also found this post quite hurtful, as well as some of the other posts.

Hurtful, infuriating, saddening, and exasperating. I swear some of these "facts" have come right from Praeger U, Abigal Schrier, and the like.

Btw, one of the reasons that there is a big growth in people who now identify as trans is because many non-binary people identify as trans. There are a lot more non-binary people than trans women and men. Of course, this makes my pedantic little head hurt but I'll survive.

Also, only 0.03% of trans people de-transition. And not all of them do that because they made a mistake. Some of those do so because they can't take the abuse thrown their way for being trans and decide to go back into the closet. This is so very sad to me.

So 0.03% of 0.06% decide transitioning is a mistake. This makes it difficult to take seriously the argument that girls are being forced into transitioning even if it was as easy to do as people putting forth that argument are making out.

 

[millyskate]

Unless you have a supportive family and really good medical insurance (in the US) and live in the right part of the world, you are going to have a really rough road moving from childhood to adulthood and transitioning.

You speak as if "these parts of the world" are anecdotal. The US situation is far from standard.
In the UK, there is concern that children can obtain puberty blockers, amongst other powerful medications, simply by contacting charities online, without the knowledge of their parents or assessment by a medical professional other than those partnering with the charity with the sole purpose of supplying these medications to those who request them. People have been fairly easily circumventing whatever safeguards are theoretically in place.

Asli lives in France afaik. I have no clue how things work there but I very much doubt it's anything like what happens in the US. Very few if any health systems are anything like what is in the US.

Regarding the issue of transgender participation in sport, there are a few questions that immediately sprung to my mind that I have not seen raised anywhere, and I wonder why because they were truly the first thoughts that came to me.

- In abusive regimes, young athletes being pressured or forced to transition in order to bring medals home seems like an obvious horror waiting to happen. We know that sport is a political weapon and individuals are used as pawns by other people and entities. I can't imagine that not happening, sadly. And then people turning round and claiming it couldn't have been predicted.

- This might even be the case on a less overt level with abusive coaches. A teenage athlete, who might be unsure and questioning whether to transition, could get influenced / pushed to transition before they are ready by the prospect of sporting success.

Do people really think it's far fetched? We know there was almost institutionalised falsification of paralympic classifications by multiple sporting bodies, to win paralympic medals. We know that athletes are being doped against their consent in multiple settings. We know that in East Germany, athletes were given hormonal drugs so powerful that they contributed to their choice of undergoing a sex change later in life. The prospect of forcing athletes to transition only seems like the next step.

It's not just my instinct that tells me criminals will try and push through any open doors.

-In Scotland, a couple of years ago inmates were allowed to self-id to determine what prison they'd be sent to. Immediately, male sexual offenders started claiming they identified as women to prey upon women in female prisons and also get an easier time. They succeeded, abused women, then at the end of their sentence promptly retransitioned to male. Victims are not being heard.

Anger as trans inmates revert to males when they leave Scottish prisons

Concern after new research suggested that men who changed their gender to female in jail are switching back to their birth gender after release.

www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk

Lawful to imprison trans women sex offenders in female jails, judge rules

High court for England and Wales rejects challenge of former inmate who claims she was sexually assaulted by trans prisoner

www.theguardian.com

"Holroyde said the statistics were too low and had insufficient detail to provide a safe basis for conclusions, adding: “I can accept, at any rate for present purposes, that the unconditional introduction of a transgender woman into the general population of a women’s prison carries a statistically greater risk of sexual assault upon non-transgender prisoners than would be the case if a non-transgender woman were introduced. But that statistical conclusion takes no account of the risk assessment which the policies require.”

Trans prisoners ‘switch gender again’ once freed from women’s units

Female prisoners in Scottish jails have told how transgender inmates serving sentences alongside them switched back to their male birth gender after being rele

www.thetimes.co.uk

-In the NHS, patients are allowed to self-ID to determine the ward they'll be assigned to. Soon after the policy was introduced, a woman was raped by a trans patient and the NHS did everything they could to claim it hadn't happened / it wasn't possible as no man was on the ward (in the UK, only men can be legally convicted of rape). In the end, they had to admit to it because the incident was caught on CCTV.... in this incident the woman who was a victim was the least of everyone's considerations.
You ask who is being told they are oppressors. This woman, victim of rape, was being treated as one.

Hospital ‘dismissed claim of rape by trans attacker’

Hospital staff told police that a patient could not have been raped because her alleged attacker was transgender, the House of Lords has been told. Officers investigating the attack, which allegedly occurred a year ago, were told that “the rape could not have happened” because no male was there. Nei

www.thetimes.co.uk

Women are not scared, generally, of transgender women in their spaces. They are scared that when no safeguards are put in place, criminals will take advantage of the situation, because that's what criminals do.

ETA: This article in a publication destined to inmates expresses it well.

Trans prisoners go back to living as men after release

Women in prison have described how some transgender prisoners in female jails make little effort to live as women, and go back to living as men after they are released. A researcher interviewed 15 …

insidetime.org

"Whilst the women interviewed had mixed views, most said they supported people who were genuinely transgender, but felt sceptical as to the motives of those who changed their gender identity whilst in custody. One woman said she now believed that a trans prisoner who she befriended whilst inside, but who returned to living as a man after release, had been “a man wanting an easy escape from the male estate”. Another said: “I’ve not a problem living with trans people, it’s living with people who are manipulating the system and pretending to be trans.”

I'm not sure what you believe regarding these issues: should they be not discussed at all because inclusion is more important? I do get that impression, that in several circles the untold position is "it is better not to discuss problems at all, because the benefits of inclusion outweigh any harm caused to individuals". If such is the position, I wish it was honestly spelt out. Rather than gaslighting people who raise the problems by telling them they don't exist - like the NHS told the rape victim.

I understand how much people wish there were easy answers. But there aren't IMO - these are complex questions and we need to proceed with care.

 

[allezfred]

Not all transgender people are saints. There are good and bad transgender people, just like in every group in our society. Minority rights shouldn’t be dependent on every single person in that minority behaving perfectly.

Again Ireland has had one of the simplest gender self ID laws in the world for seven years. If I or anyone else here wanted to, we could quite easily go out and change my gender officially. I do not need to see a doctor. I do not need to live for a certain period as a woman. I do not need to take any medication. And yet in that time, there is no evidence at all to suggest that people are changing genders to game the system or gain access to women’s spaces. Or men’s spaces for that matter. What it has given is transgender people a tool to get on with living their lives in peace.

Of course, women as a group face discrimination in our societies which are still very sexist, but transgender people are not the problem here.

 

[millyskate]

And yet in that time, there is no evidence at all to suggest that people are changing genders to game the system or gain access to women’s spaces. Or men’s spaces for that matter. What it has given is transgender people a tool to get on with living their lives in peace.

It sounds like in Ireland at least, the process is official and relates to a person's identity. Not something you can declare ad hoc at the time of admission to a space like a hospital or prison. Or half way through a prison sentence. This might help with reducing the risks.

Because clearly outside of Ireland, there is evidence that people are gaming the system as described in the articles above.

The judge says “I can accept, at any rate for present purposes, that the unconditional introduction of a transgender woman into the general population of a women’s prison carries a statistically greater risk of sexual assault upon non-transgender prisoners than would be the case if a non-transgender woman were introduced."

Do you believe that women should just absorb this increased risk without discussion?

We know that there is a much higher rate of sexual offending amongst men than women. This is one of the reasons why single sex spaces were created. Not enough research exists to establish whether amongst the population of transgender women, rates of offending align more with those of women or of men. Initially the evidence of the Scottish prisons example pointed towards the later, but it then transpired it was corrupted by the proportion of non-transgender men gaming the system precisely because they were sexual offenders.

Do you believe women should again, just take the risk? I understand that is a valid position, but I wish it was expressed under the form of "inclusion is more important than avoiding an increased risk to women" rather than pretending there isn't an increased risk to women. In some cases, there clearly is and in others we can only speculate at this stage.

 

[allezfred]

Do you believe women should again, just take the risk?

How great is the risk of a woman in a prison or hospital being attacked by a transgender woman versus the risk of a woman being attacked by a man in a prison or hospital (or her own home)? Bearing in mind that in Ireland and I am guessing the UK is similar transgender people (men/women) represent 0.0something percent of the population?

What you and those articles are suggesting is that transgender people shouldn’t have the right to change their gender because one or more of them might do something criminal. Apply that to an ethnic minority or a religion and we would rightfully call it something else.

 

[BlueRidge]

I don't know where you are getting this but I know at least 5 trans women in real life, some trans men and several non-binary people, and many more trans and non-binary people whose YouTube channels I follow, and not one of them is elevating gender over sex and they all say that there are many ways to be a woman and they all need to be accepted.

And they have felt alienated from their bodies from a very early age before they even knew the term trans. It's not something forced on them by nebulous activists.

I wasn't talking to about transpeople here. I was talking about the current way that people talk about gender.

You tell me what gender is if it isn't a social construct that was created by society to buttress the existing power structure. What is it?

Gender is about conforming to categories required by the patriarchy to enforce women's oppression. That hasn't changed yet the way people speak about it is as if it were a free floating quality that had nothing to do with social structures. Do you really believe it is the latter? Where did it come from then? Do you believe that it never had a part in women's oppression? Why are we trying to label everyone by gender and trying to fit everyone into gender categories? How when we do that are we not recreating the same thing that dominant power structures have always done?

Speaking of mimicking the dominant power structures, a lot of people employ a concept of a hierarchy of oppression in which only the people in what they consider the most oppressed group should have a voice when issues of concern to them are discussed. This creates a situation where people who are members of oppressed groups who have experiences of oppression have their experiences denied and their voices belittled. All women have experienced gender oppression but now when we discuss gender we are told that because we are not at the higher rung of the hierarchy of oppression we should have no voice because we only speak as oppressors. This is contrary to the concept of intersectionality which I guess has fallen out of favor as I don't see it being used anymore.

One of the most vicious posts I've ever had aimed at me on this board told me I had no experience of gender oppression because I'm not like transwoman who get killed for it. I'm only the oppressor not the oppressed. This is vicious and denies the experiences of people whose lives are shaped by forces of oppression in patriarchal society.

I'm not accepting the need for us to skew the historical and present day experience of gender oppression to deny how it has affected all women. The implications of doing this are profound and do not lead to a more just society.

 

[Asli]

I don't know a single trans woman who wants to date people who don't want to date her. Or cares that some people aren't attracted to them.

I said that lesbian bars are swarming with male people mostly presenting as men, that haven't gone through any kind of transition, dressed as men. How do you deduce that any of these people are trans women and not heterosexual men?

When women-only spaces are opened to anybody who says that they are women, this is what happens. This is now a day in the life of my 19-year-old daughter.

Obviously at least hormonally transitioned lesbian trans women belong in a lesbian bar. However, that is not the scene you will find if you walk in there now.

It's not part of the so-called "doctrine" that cis lesbians have to date anyone who says they are a woman.

It is part of the doctrine that you can't "discriminate" against some women with penises and if you don't want to sleep with such a person because she has a male body, then you are a transphobe, a fascist and a genital fetishist.

I think you are years behind in the knowledge of the life of lesbians. Being a lesbian now has to be according to gender and not according to sex.

The penis of trans woman is now supposed to be a female genital organ. It is called a "girl dick."

You can be expelled from a dating site for saying you are looking for a "biological female".

These facts aren't disputed. On the contrary, they are proudly spread. They have been so much part of the ordinary landscape for several years that I don't know what link to give about them.

In any case, I don't want to subject any other trans gender or lesbian women to accusations of transphobia after Richards and Navratilova, so you can find your own videos, articles and tweets. They are literally everywhere.

 

[On My Own]

The idea that women’s sport is under attack by transgender people is a right wing talking point.

They are using right wing talking points when it comes to transgender people in the classic way of the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

And it also proves my point of the TERF/gender critical movement being aligned with the right wing.

Just a small interjection. The TERF/gender-critical movement doesn't have to be aligned with the right-wing in order to have its own talking point about women's sports. The rhetoric of "women have been oppressed by men, through the use of gender and patriarchy as the tools of oppression" is in fact of a Marxian tradition. Thence springs the need to classify trans-women as men, and to ensure they don't use patriarchy as a tool of oppression in women's spaces (this extremism is in fact also a part of the same tradition). This wouldn't be the same basis with which the right-wing criticizes trans-inclusion in women's sports. They may look the same on surface, but they aren't the same talking points.

Politics isn't necessarily on a straight-line in terms of classification. There are many schools of thought and clusters, which might all be lumped into the usual "wings". What you're seeing on this thread is precisely the bickering between two clusters on the same "left-wing".

That's all I have to say. I don't have an opinion on the matter. It doesn't affect me in any manner.

 

[millyskate]

How great is the risk of a woman in a prison or hospital being attacked by a transgender woman versus the risk of a woman being attacked by a man in her own home? Bearing in mind that in Ireland and I am guessing the UK is similar transgender people (men/women) represent 0.0something percent of the population?

What you and those articles are suggesting is that transgender people shouldn’t have the right to change their gender because one or more of them might do something criminal. Apply that to an ethnic minority or a religion and we would rightfully call it something else.

Could it be that this problem is too complex to divide into polarised positions?

I could say "Your position sounds like "only a few additional women are likely to be victims so it doesn't matter as overall inclusion is more important".

But no, clearly I know you are probably more nuanced than that because I know you a little as a person.


Would it be acceptable to prevent men with charges of sexual assault against women to apply for transition post arrest if this would facilitate them joining a women's unit? Or at least only consider for women's units those who had a history of transitioning prior to the arrest? That, for instance, sounds like a reasonable first step to me towards acknowledging the complexity of these issues.

 

[antmanb]

I said that lesbian bars are swarming with male people mostly presenting as men, that haven't gone through any kind of transition, dressed as men. How do you deduce that any of these people are trans women and not heterosexual men?

When women-only spaces are opened to anybody who says that they are women, this is what happens. This is now a day in the life of my 19-year-old daughter.

I'm sorry but you've posted this twice now and I think at best you're being hyperbolic and at worst you're simply lying. I have more friends in my circle who are lesbians than gay and not a single person in that friendship group has reported anything like this in any of Manchester, Liverpool or London.

You make it sound like lesbian bars are now mostly full of men calling themselves women and this is just bullshit. I fully believe that there might be one off occasions where this might happen but to insinuate that lesbian bars are swarming with men calling themselves women to gain entry is not something i believe any more than I believe there are public toilets that are swarming with men trying to use women's toilets by calling themselves women.

As a gay male, in the two lesbian bars in Manchester, I have to be signed in as a "guest" and i'm only allowed in if there aren't too many other men in the bar. Sometimes I'm allowed in, sometimes I'm not. I can guarantee you the bouncer on the door is not an academic, an expert in the law, or anyone else making nuanced arguments. A transwoman who, to that small minded bouncer, looks like a man is not gaining entry to that bar. She could have the laws printed out and give them to the bouncer and she is not getting in full stop. Such is the whim of bouncers on the door of any bar, let alone the bouncer on the door of a gay/lesbian bar.

 

[BlueRidge]

Fundamentally I think a lot of the conflict on this subject comes from people defending transpeople by pitting them against cis-gender women and acting from a conviction that if cisgender women's concerns are allowed to be heard and considered it will harm transpeople.

I think this is really wrong headed and there is a real need for people to stop denying that all women and therefore cis-gender women experience oppression and need to be supported and heard even when they are wrong about things; if people would listen to the women who feel they are being denied agency here those women might also listen to how in fact trans rights do not threaten them.

I hear a lot of misogyny and denial of the entire history of women's oppression in the arguments people are making here. Sit down and shut up is certainly what women have always heard; bear the burden required of you for the sake of others, accept that your voice is not the one that should rise above. Even when it is other women who are implying this it is still a case of people being told that as women they do not have standing on this subject.

 

[BlueRidge]

I'm sorry but you've posted this twice now and I think at best you're being hyperbolic and at worst you're simply lying. I have more friends in my circle who are lesbians than gay and not a single person in that friendship group has reported anything like this in any of Manchester, Liverpool or London.

You make it sound like lesbian bars are now mostly full of men calling themselves women and this is just bullshit. I fully believe that there might be one off occasions where this might happen but to insinuate that lesbian bars are swarming with men calling themselves women to gain entry is not something i believe any more than I believe there are public toilets that are swarming with men trying to use women's toilets by calling themselves women.

As a gay male, in the two lesbian bars in Manchester, I have to be signed in as a "guest" and i'm only allowed in if there aren't too many other men in the bar. Sometimes I'm allowed in, sometimes I'm not. I can guarantee you the bouncer on the door is not an academic, an expert in the law, or anyone else making nuanced arguments. A transwoman who, to that small minded bouncer, looks like a man is not gaining entry to that bar. She could have the laws printed out and give them to the bouncer and she is not getting in full stop. Such is the whim of bouncers on the door of any bar, let alone the bouncer on the door of a gay/lesbian bar.

I don't think Asli is lying but I admit to feeling skeptical that what she describes is widespread. I am glad to hear your experiences.

I think that a lot of women are reacting to be asked to accept that people with male anatomy--which they do not desire to alter--are women. We're being treated as though we are ridiculous and reactionary for not simply accepting this. This creates more than a bit of disorientation that can send people to extremes.

Do people really think it is so clear and easy to accept that anatomy is irrelevant to what sex a person is? I've read in mainstream articles about people saying that women can have penises. I can accept that their are intersex people who are female who have penises, but this isn't what is being asked of us. We are being asked to set anatomy aside entirely and adopt the idea that gender is what makes one a man, woman, or non-binary and that biology is irrelevant. Yet biology is something all of us live with everyday and it is a part of who we are.

I feel like the focus on gender is denying people's wholeness. We are biological beings. Biology isn't social destiny but it is real and impacts how we live and who we are. We're being asked to accept that this is not true and that our physical selves are as irrelevant as old clothes. I think that a confused uproar is totally predictable on such a thing.

just an aside, but one can be a lesbian and have never set foot in a lesbian bar. I am one.

 

[PRlady]

I would only add to BR’s brilliant exposition that historically, traditions that most fully embrace the mind-body dichotomy tend to be the most anti-sex - from Christianity to some forms of Buddhism. If your soul is what matters and your body is just that lustful and material thing carrying your soul around, denying and disfiguring the body’s agency often follows. These traditions are generally very patriarchal and situate the “problem” of the sin of lust in women.

For 99% or more of humanity, your body is you. Having to medicalise it or operate on it to make it look like what your soul feels is a sad solution and I’m sorry for people who have to undergo it, like I’m sorry for myself and anyone who has had to endure painful procedures. But the fact that for a very small minority of people the body’s essence is not who they feel they are is not a reason to treat bodies as random accidents, extrinsic to real personhood.

 

[allezfred]

I'm sorry but you've posted this twice now and I think at best you're being hyperbolic and at worst you're simply lying. I have more friends in my circle who are lesbians than gay and not a single person in that friendship group has reported anything like this in any of Manchester, Liverpool or London.

You make it sound like lesbian bars are now mostly full of men calling themselves women and this is just bullshit. I fully believe that there might be one off occasions where this might happen but to insinuate that lesbian bars are swarming with men calling themselves women to gain entry is not something i believe any more than I believe there are public toilets that are swarming with men trying to use women's toilets by calling themselves women.

As a gay male, in the two lesbian bars in Manchester, I have to be signed in as a "guest" and i'm only allowed in if there aren't too many other men in the bar. Sometimes I'm allowed in, sometimes I'm not. I can guarantee you the bouncer on the door is not an academic, an expert in the law, or anyone else making nuanced arguments. A transwoman who, to that small minded bouncer, looks like a man is not gaining entry to that bar. She could have the laws printed out and give them to the bouncer and she is not getting in full stop. Such is the whim of bouncers on the door of any bar, let alone the bouncer on the door of a gay/lesbian bar.

Further to this, because of the panic and hysteria being whipped up around transgender women I know of some lesbians who do not fit feminine stereotypes being challenged when they want to access female only spaces such as bathrooms.

This whole “debate” around transgender issues is being used to pit different groups against each other by some very dark forces.

 

[PRlady]

Further to this, because of the panic and hysteria being whipped up around transgender women I know of some lesbians who do not fit feminine stereotypes being challenged when they want to access female only spaces such as bathrooms.

This whole “debate” around transgender issues is being used to pit different groups against each other by some very dark forces.

It is. Which doesn’t mean that these complex issues shouldn’t be civilly debated, meaning responding that someone’s honest thoughts make you vomit is not productive.

I know that some of this is indeed generational, but not always. There are old gender-positive people and young gender-critical people. But right wing antagonists shouldn’t be the reason to shut down discussion as if there is only one acceptable point of view elsewhere. Calling people TERFs only makes me want to find an acronym for anti-feminist transactivist extremists (AFTAE?) and doesn’t get us anywhere, it’s just a way of saying shut up, your concerns don’t matter.

 

[Wyliefan]

If your soul is what matters and your body is just that lustful and material thing carrying your soul around, denying and disfiguring the body’s agency often follows.

Just to clarify a point, that's Gnosticism, considered a heresy in mainstream Christianity. (Although unfortunately, as you noticed, it does tend to keep sneaking back and acting as a very bad influence.)

 

[PRlady]

Just to clarify a point, that's Gnosticism, considered a heresy in mainstream Christianity. (Although unfortunately, as you noticed, it does tend to keep sneaking back and acting as a very bad influence.)

You’re right. And it tends to sneak in in fundamentalist sects looking for reasons to maintain patriarchy.

 

[Wyliefan]

Exactly.

 

[just tuned in]

Straight, white, cis woman here.

I wonder if people who feel like they are inhabiting the “wrong” (wrongly-sexed) body would, if available, take a drug or undergo a procedure that would safely change their brain structure or brain chemistry so that they felt like they were in the “right” body. I wonder if that is possible and why scientists are not working on that. Find out which area of the brain determines sex self-ID and see if there is a difference in that area in cis vs trans people. I wonder if trans people would prefer that vs the difficulty in changing their bodies, plus all the crap they have to endure during and after transitioning.

 

[Asli]

1. I think we are already exchanging ideas and experiences and discussing this subject more freely and with less vitriol than the beginning. Probably also because most people on this board don't have a vicious bone in their bodies.

2. I hate being on the same side as the right wing. I had thought anyone to the right of social democrat was inherently wrong.

3. Since I've never posted anything on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram or any other social media, I don't know the etiquette of replying when someone you don't know says you are lying about some visceral experience of your own daughter, because he himself has had another experience in another setting in another country. I wasn't lying, but I can accept to multiply by a factor of 0.75 the experiences that a teenager and her friends are reporting from their evenings. Not that they're lying either, because it is too vital to them, but because of their youthful exhuberance.

 

[antmanb]

3. Since I've never posted anything on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram or any other social media, I don't know the etiquette of replying when someone you don't know says you are lying about some visceral experience of your own daughter, because he himself has had another experience in another setting in another country. I wasn't lying, but I can accept to multiply by a factor of 0.75 the experiences that a teenager and her friends are reporting.

Your are totally free to respond to me , I really do try not be an arsehole, and i did say "at worst" it's a lie, and genuinely did think it was more likely to be hyperbole. Since you're relaying what teenagers have said to you I will stick with hyperbole. I think a factor of 0.75 is likely to still be too generous but you obviously know your daughter and i don't. I know Mr Antmanb well so i know very well to take a lot of what he says with a big pinch of salt because he values the (exaggerated) story telling over the strict truth every time and would factor some of what he says at 0.2....and I perhaps unfairly say he often tells stories like a teenager (he's 58)!

 

[Asli]

Your are totally free to respond to me , I really do try not be an arsehole, and i did say "at worst" it's a lie, and genuinely did think it was more likely to be hyperbole. Since you're relaying what teenagers have said to you I will stick with hyperbole. I think a factor of 0.75 is likely to still be too generous but you obviously know your daughter and i don't. I know Mr Antmanb well so i know very well to take a lot of what he says with a big pinch of salt because he values the (exaggerated) story telling over the strict truth every time and would factor some of what he says at 0.2....and I perhaps unfairly say he often tells stories like a teenager (he's 58)!

I can go down to at most 0.75 knowing that she has stopped going to those bars (and therefore any bar) and I know she really, really wanted to go to those bars. Because of covid the kids have had no opportunities to meet like-minded young women. The other friends are all serious and nerdy young women. I don't believe it is hyperbole.

Maybe we should try the places when one of you come down here. The proof is in the pudding.

 

[antmanb]

I can go down to at most 0.75 knowing that she has stopped going to those bars (and therefore any bar) and I know she really, really wanted to go to those bars. Because of covid the kids have had no opportunities to meet like-minded young women. The other friends are all serious and nerdy young women. I don't believe it is hyperbole.

Maybe we should try the places when one of you come down here. The proof is in the pudding.

I forget where you're based Asli is it Paris? I have to say that i've only been out on the gay scene in Paris once about 10 years ago for a friends 40th birthday and the gay male scene was weirdly aggressive, loads of aggressive touching and aggressive/hostile propositions. It's generally the one place that i've felt least safe out of pretty much anywhere else i've visited in Europe. Even Berlin that has a reputation for a more sexualised/fetish scene felt safer and people were much more respectful than Paris.

 

[Asli]

I forget where you're based Asli is it Paris? I have to say that i've only been out on the gay scene in Paris once about 10 years ago for a friends 40th birthday and the gay male scene was weirdly aggressive, loads of aggressive touching and aggressive/hostile propositions. It's generally the one place that i've felt least safe out of pretty much anywhere else i've visited in Europe. Even Berlin that has a reputation for a more sexualised/fetish scene felt safer and people were much more respectful than Paris.

Yes, Paris. I know nothing about this. I'm of Turkish origin. What I observe with my gay couple friends in Paris is that they feel more middle class - conservative as couples than I've ever seen in Turkey. Maybe in Turkey those people are not out.

Also, 10 years ago was a very stressful time for gay people here. There were the parliamentary discussions on mariage equality and the horrible and very crowded "Manif pour Tous" rallies against gay marriage. That was probably the worst atmosphere I've seen in my 25 years in France.

A gay friend of mine who was originally from Scotland had said "I didn't know so many people hated us". I was ashamed of France.

 

[PRlady]

My friend in Israel who now runs a radical human rights organization was the first director of Jerusalem Open House, the only LGBTQ org in the city back then. They fought for years for a Pride parade and when they got it, in two different years a participant was killed by an ultra-Orthodox protester. It’s worth noting that opposing Pride was the one thing the rabbis, imans, priests, ministers and patriarchs could all agree on.

This is only to say that cultural reactions to LGBTQ rights can vary by centuries in the one hour distance between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. So what’s going on in France is in the context of other things that make me go whaaaaat, like age of consent.