Safe Sport Dropping Coughlin Investigation

[el henry]

....

I also wanted to note a current example of an investigation into abuse done after the death of one of the parties. There is the inquiry into the cases against Dr. Richard Strauss, who was a sports medicine doctor at OSU, & died by suicide over ten years ago. It was assigned to an independent outside committee to investigate. So although there may be disagreement about how much can be investigated after the death of one of the parties, in fact it can still be done & has been done. If SafeSport chooses not to do it, perhaps USFSA ought to use a (completely independent) third party who performs this type of research to provide further information.

The OSU investigation is not at all the same.

It is being conducted *by. the. University*. Not by an organization such as SafeSport. And it is being conducted to determine *if the University failed in some aspect* and not simply if the physician abused persons.

SafeSport did the ONLY thing it could do with an investigation *of Coughlin* with the death of Coughlin. It closed that investigation.

If USFS wants to commission an outside group to determine if there were systemic failures, as OSU did, USFS has every right to do that.

That’s what folks who feel there needs to be more investigation should be asking for, not holding open an investigation of a deceased person.

 

[Vagabond]

@VagabondIf an incident occurred and someone was afraid to report it, or didn’t know how to report it, or didn’t think it was an incident until they heard that someone else had also complained, that's a systemic failure.

But you don't know that any of these things is true. While there might have been a systemic failure, there doesn't appear to be any actual evidence of it that would justify reopening the investigation.

 

[Tinami Amori]

@Vagabond The facts support my opinion, because (according to Brennan) two of the complaints weren't filed until the first one was filed and the first suspension was imposed.

If an incident occurred and someone was afraid to report it, or didn’t know how to report it, or didn’t think it was an incident until they heard that someone else had also complained, that's a systemic failure.

I am not looking for a fight, just stating "my ifs" since there are many "ifs".

What if the complainers are not actually the people JC engaged in "an interaction" with? What if, hypothetically, JC was flirting (one way or another) with under-aged girls, and the girls did not mind, and welcomed it.... But the "complainers" were some prudish older people who did not think "it is right" by their morals? So that can mean that "one complained" about "what she witnessed" and others followed? And yet the girls are fine and think nothing of it....

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

I am not looking for a fight, just stating "my ifs" since there are many "ifs".

What if the complainers are not actually the people JC engaged in "an interaction" with? What if, hypothetically, JC was flirting (one way or another) with under-aged girls, and the girls did not mind, and welcomed it.... But the "complainers" were some prudish older people who did not think "it is right" by their morals? So that can mean that "one complained" about "what she witnessed" and others followed? And yet the girls are fine and think nothing of it....

I seriously doubt the complaints were escalated the way they were based on that scenario.

 

[Tinami Amori]

I seriously doubt the complaints were escalated the way they were based on that scenario.

ok... but at least it would be good to know without naming names what is the "nature" of JC's supposed "misconducts".. at least that! Because if it was something serious, it should have been reported to police, at least by Safesport.. If it was "subjective in terms of behavior, based on someone's idea of wrong or morals" then it is another story.

 

[BittyBug]

What if, hypothetically, JC was flirting (one way or another) with under-aged girls, and the girls did not mind, and welcomed it.... But the "complainers" were some prudish older people who did not think "it is right" by their morals? So that can mean that "one complained" about "what she witnessed" and others followed? And yet the girls are fine and think nothing of it....

Whatever your beliefs, the rules of SafeSport and therefore the PSA and USFSA make it very clear that sexual innuendo of any kind is never appropriate between an adult and a minor. It is not a matter of being moral or being a prude - it is the code of conduct for the sport and it exists to ensure the safety of minors.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Whatever your beliefs, the rules of SafeSport and therefore the PSA and USFSA make it very clear that sexual innuendo of any kind is never appropriate between an adult and a minor. It is not a matter of being moral or being a prude - it is the code of conduct for the sport and it exists to ensure the safety of minors.

ensuring "safety" means someone is harmed/in danger... physically or morally. but if the "object" does not see it or feel it as "harm", but maybe even "pleasure"?

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

ensuring "safety" means someone is harmed/in danger... physically or morally. but if the "object" does not see it or feel it as "harm", but maybe even "pleasure"?

If the behavior is directed at a minor it doesn't make any difference whether said minor sees danger or pleasure. Code of conduct says no because of the high and real risk of predators.

 

[UGG]

I really doubt he would kill himself if he was being accused of flirting when he was 19. Lets really think about this.

 

[BittyBug]

ensuring "safety" means someone is harmed/in danger... physically or morally. but if the "object" does not see it or feel it as "harm", but maybe even "pleasure"?

You are focusing on an exception - someone who might welcome such advances. But as long as there are minors who would not be as receptive, who might feel coerced because the other person is in a position of authority, or who simply might feel uncomfortable in the future going to their rink because they'd be afraid of some unwanted advances or looks, there is the potential for harm and therefore the need for rules to ensure the safety of everyone.

 

[Tinami Amori]

If the behavior is directed at a minor it doesn't make any difference whether said minor sees danger or pleasure. Code of conduct says no because of the high and real risk of predators.

But then if it is a situation where it is "against hypothetical rules in case of some hypothetical danger to someone" and not an actual harm, then whoever has a problem with it, should talk to the guy, and say "hey... stop or i'll report".. and not ran to "authorities" and snitch..

You are focusing on an exception - someone who might welcome such advances. But as long as there are minors who would not be as receptive, who might feel coerced because the other person is in a position of authority, or who simply might feel uncomfortable in the future going to their rink because they'd be afraid of some unwanted advances or looks, there is the potential for harm and therefore the need for rules to ensure the safety of everyone.

How about talking first and saying "don't do it", and if it continues, then that's another story... But we don't know what it was... which is a problem.

 

[once_upon]

I think that an investigation should continue to determine what the practices are in the rink with other coaches he was affiliated with. Are they deliberately overlooking or accepting an environment that would allow inappropriate sexual interactions between other coaches and students?

John no longer can answer the questions as he chose to take that information to the grave. But if there are situations within the coaching camp that would potentially allow other situations to occur, that's what I would want to be addressed.

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

I don't assume the worst but there were three charges. It is highly unlikely that 3 people were just being prudish. So all the "what if" attempts to minimize this are really just starting to disturb me.

 

[skatfan]

But then if it is a situation where it is "against hypothetical rules in case of some hypothetical danger to someone" and not an actual harm, then whoever has a problem with it, should talk to the guy, and say "hey... stop or i'll report".. and not ran to "authorities" and snitch..

How about talking first and saying "don't do it", and if it continues, then that's another story... But we don't know what it was... which is a problem.

This doesn't work with the power imbalance of adults to minors, or coaches to students, etc. The point of professional ethics is prevent abuse and misconduct, not to allow it until someone stays stop. It is to make people who see such things also have to report them and not ignore them because maybe the minor thinks it is ok, when it is never ok.

The whole point of Safesport is to create a safe cultural system where such things as professional ethics are normative, and that people who do not follow them are not allowed to remain. This is not snitching when those who are vulnerable cannot safely confront those in power - it is providing a way for them to have a voice.

 

[Tinami Amori]

This is not snitching when those who are vulnerable cannot safely confront those in power - it is providing a way for them to have a voice.

oy..... a 16/17-year old girl is not "vulnerable" if she has a crush on a coach and flirts with him (if hypothetically this is the case), she is "vulnerable" if she is rejected and her feelings are hurt.

But in general, if someone says something to you that makes your feel uncomfortable (like for example an older coach asking you out, or commenting on your body), what is the harm of at least once telling him "you don't like it"? Maybe he'll stop... No harm done. He tried, you said no. end of story...

What the heck is wrong with this society?? some people can't civilly ask another not to bother them and make it a "court case"..... another one can't handle facing legal issues and hangs himself..... Why such extremes..

 

[UGG]

You have no idea if the situation was something as simple as a third party witnessing what they thought was inappropriate flirting. So why do you keep talking about this scenario? It is really doubtful this is what happened.

"19 year old skater accused of flirting with minor"...doesn't really sound like a headline for suicide.

 

[Tinami Amori]

You have no idea if the situation was something as simple as a third party witnessing what they thought was inappropriate flirting. So why do you keep talking about this scenario? It is really doubtful this is what happened.

Of course i don't! there could be 100's variations, mine is just one example to contra other type of assumptions how "serious" the offense was... that's why it's important to find out at least basics of the accusations (as i said).

If the issue turns out to be as the scenario i suggested, this is like a 21-st Century "Romeo and Juliette"..
Instead of Caps and Monts, we have 2 factions - zealous #metoos and "love is beautiful at any age".. A 15 year old in-love with a 35-year old... They can't live without each other, but people stand in the way, blow it out of proportion, he gets "banished", she is kept away, the SS, the media, the press, the SFSU, people talking... he hangs himself, she becomes a nun..

We're sorry for the Mont/Cap vendetta 300 years later... But back then betraying a family was a deadly sin.. and now we're laughing at how silly it was. Well.... maybe 200-300 years later people will be laughing at "prudishness" of "age restrictions"..

 

[misskarne]

Sadly, I'm hardly surprised to open a thread about this issue and find @Tinami Amori being disgusting about it and romanticising statutory rape. Can we stay on topic, please?

 

[UGG]

If he killed himself over flirting allegations, he had other mental issues happening in his life and it was most likely unrelated to skating.

 

[once_upon]

I think the important things to keep in mind

3 accusations - not 1 and therefore unlikely to be a flirting/rebuke situation or a clutching pearls observation

And more importantly to me is this coaching camp tolerant of inappropriate interactions between coach and students (and reportedly minor students)

Ethics.

 

[Willin]

I really doubt he would kill himself if he was being accused of flirting when he was 19. Lets really think about this.

If he felt his career/life was ruined, that might have been enough. And, given how small a community skating is, even if he was cleared his career might have been over. But it might not have been. Suicide is not rational. It's not a sign of what he did or did not do.

That being said, since there's more than one accuser, one would assume that this wasn't a situation comparable to that of Alex Naddour, where the complaint was over one event that was ultimately a "he said, she said" situation. What Coughlin did, or was accused of doing, we'll never know.

I would like to see the investigation continue because if he did do what he did, USFSA should want to figure out how it happened and how they can prevent it in the future.
More selfishly, or perhaps for justice, I would like to see the investigation continue because if the Coughlin is guilty I want the name of the victims to be cleared in the skating community. Some of the attacks of the victims were despicable, and though I doubt the a**holes that attacked them would believe even hard evidence from the investigation, I would hope those individuals would reconsider their behavior and that USFS would reconsider their affiliation with those people. I don't care that Dalilah is one of the US's best pair's coaches. The safety of athletes and giving them a safe place to come forward is more important to me.

 

[skatfan]

oy..... a 16/17-year old girl is not "vulnerable" if she has a crush on a coach and flirts with him (if hypothetically this is the case), she is "vulnerable" if she is rejected and her feelings are hurt.

But in general, if someone says something to you that makes your feel uncomfortable (like for example an older coach asking you out, or commenting on your body), what is the harm of at least once telling him "you don't like it"? Maybe he'll stop... No harm done. He tried, you said no. end of story...

What the heck is wrong with this society?? some people can't civilly ask another not to bother them and make it a "court case"..... another one can't handle facing legal issues and hangs himself..... Why such extremes..

You are completely ignoring professional ethics and placing the burden on the teenager and not the person getting paid to be a professional. That is a boundary crossed. You ignore the professional realities that many professions (including my own) require of us. If I were to ask out a minor, let me tell you there would be professional repercussions, which is exactly what would happen within the Safesport world too. Not everything sent to Safesport is a crime, but a lot of them are likely violations of professional boundaries that must be enforced to create a safe culture.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Three complaints does not prove systemic issues one way or another, since we have no idea what the complaints are. The complainants could be in three separate training cities and whatever happened was out of the public eye, or they could have been attendees at the skaters banquet or at competitions on the road in multiple countries. The question is whether the adults in the room who had professional obligations to be aware had reason to be aware and were not, if they were aware and did nothing, or if they received reports, buried them, or the people up the chain buried them.

As far as a career or reputation being ruined irreparably, as @Aerobicidal pointed out, both Morozov's and Fajfr's businesses are booming, and there is a line-up miles long of people in Hollywood and the European film industry who will defend Roman Polanski with their dying breaths, and he drugged and raped a young teen-aged girl. Clearly Coughlin felt otherwise.

 

[Tinami Amori]

You are completely ignoring professional ethics and placing the burden on the teenager and not the person getting paid to be a professional. That is a boundary crossed. You ignore the professional realities that many professions (including my own) require of us. If I were to ask out a minor, let me tell you there would be professional repercussions, which is exactly what would happen within the Safesport world too. Not everything sent to Safesport is a crime, but a lot of them are likely violations of professional boundaries that must be enforced to create a safe culture.

I am not ignoring professional ethics... I agree with you. Any exhibition or actions of “personal relationship” in a work place/professional environment is not acceptable, regardless of age. I agree with this part of professional ethics; even a married couple if they work together should act professional and not display “personal” and not break those boundaries, making others uncomfortable.

But as far as “safe culture”… to me it is an assumption that if there is a love interest between a young girl and an older coach, the “girl” is automatically in “danger” and will somehow be “harmed”. Any person, regardless of age, if subjected to unwanted advances, actions, or bullying, is harmed and/or in danger. But if the “love interest” is mutual, then it is not “danger” but “pleasure” for both.

Why do people assume that if an older coach falls in love with younger skater, he/she has evil motives, and will abuse/manipulate/harm the student? What if they are both sincerely interested in each other, and the younger lover will learn a lot from the older lover, will be treated with understanding and patience younger mates rarely have, plus receives all the sexual benefits from lover’s maturity and experience?

Why is there an assumption that an older mate will dominate and abuse younger mate? That is not true.

Why is there an assumption that a 16/17 year old girl is stupid and does not know how to handle an older man? It is very easy, if one uses one’s brains, to handle any man, and have him in the right place, especially an older one, who is thrilled to have young/pretty/exotic girl in love with him, or thinking she is in love with him.

It sometimes works quite well for a girl of 16/17 to have a coach of 30+ for a lover, especially if they both like each other. More free lesson time, special attention to programme, music, costumes, heart and soul into the work.. Stands up for you in conflict with other girls, their mothers, rink’s administration. Gives rides to/from rink, pays for your meals when out at competitions, saves on hotel room when you don’t need one and can stay in his. Your mother does not need to take off work, to go with you to competitions, because he’ll take care of everything…. And if a girl has a dance partner, and there are issues, the coach is always on girls side..

What "safe culture" when there is no danger? (well, except for the older coach, who gets dumped when the girl falls in love with the next guy, or switches rinks).

 

[once_upon]

Whoa...exchange sex for more time in coaching, program development, food, other expenses of training/competing...talk about crossing ethical lines. That's selling oneself disguised as "love"

 

[synchrogirl17]

Why do people assume that if an older coach falls in love with younger skater, he/she has evil motives, and will abuse/manipulate/harm the student? What if they are both sincerely interested in each other, and the younger lover will learn a lot from the older lover, will be treated with understanding and patience younger mates rarely have, plus receives all the sexual benefits from lover’s maturity and experience?

.....

It sometimes works quite well for a girl of 16/17 to have a coach of 30+ for a lover, especially if they both like each other. More free lesson time, special attention to programme, music, costumes, heart and soul into the work.. Stands up for you in conflict with other girls, their mothers, rink’s administration. Gives rides to/from rink, pays for your meals when out at competitions, saves on hotel room when you don’t need one and can stay in his. Your mother does not need to take off work, to go with you to competitions, because he’ll take care of everything…. And if a girl has a dance partner, and there are issues, the coach is always on girls side..

There are just so many things wrong with this post...

I am referring to hypothetical situations here, not this specific case.

When people are concerned about romantic/sexual relationships between coaches and young students, they are not just talking about straightforward abuse (rape, assault, verbal abuse). The point is that there is an imbalance of power, both in terms of age and within the coach-student relationship.

Having been in a relationship with a 10-year-age difference from the age of 18 (and not even with a coach), I can assure you that this imbalance exists. My partner was not physically or verbally abusive, but even now, 10 years later, I struggle mentally with the effects of this relationship. I was simply too young to effectively manage such a relationship and I ended up feeling trapped for years.

Coaches have a responsibility to provide a safe environment for their athletes, especially when they are underage. And starting a (possibly illegal) sexual relationship is not doing so.

As for the last part of your post, in many countries this would be viewed very negatively. It almost sounds like you are suggesting that girls might as well “buy” special treatment with sexual favours... I hope you can see how wrong that is in a professional sports relationship. And what exactly happens to the girl if this relationship goes sour? Their career could be ruined and they are left with emotional scars.

Again, this is not related directly to the Coughlin case because we do not know the hard facts.....

 

[synchrogirl17]

Whoa...exchange sex for more time in coaching, program development, food, other expenses of training/competing...talk about crossing ethical lines. That's selling oneself disguised as "love"

I know, right? This post made me sick

 

[Tinami Amori]

I was simply too young to effectively manage such a relationship and I ended up feeling trapped for years.

Ok, so you were too young to manage older man, other girls are not... In some marriages women are bosses, in some men are... some play piano, some play violin.. The assumption that an older mate manipulates the younger mate, is subjective. Each situation is different.

50 years ago it was unheard of and "wrong" to have inter-racial relationship..... 20 years ago it was unheard of and "wrong" to have same-sex relationship... The "age issue" will pass too.... and 100 years from now people will be laughing and rolling eyes at today's assumptions used in "limiting people based on age"...

 

[synchrogirl17]

Ok, so you were too young to manage older man, other girls are not... In some marriages women are bosses, in some men are... some play piano, some play violin.. The assumption that an older mate manipulates the younger mate, is subjective. Each situation is different.

Thank you for comparing my emotional trauma with a choice of musical instruments. You truly seem like such a lovely person...

Every situation is different, but coaches always hold some degree of power.

 

[synchrogirl17]

Ok, so you were too young to manage older man, other girls are not...

And I never said it was a man.