Royalty thread #15: A New Era

once_upon

once_upon

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I guess we asked a young woman on Monday - your accent is beautiful where are you from. She is from Australia to the west (east) of Melbourne about an hour and we talked about our cruise. How she was so excited about the tree lighting and the fabulous park lights..

But we would have never asked - no where are you really from
 
skatfan

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Louis said:
Part of the reason I don't assume this was racist is that this happens to me all the time. I don't think it's necessarily stupid nor offensive. When I open my mouth, people know I am not from London. I don't blame them for asking where I'm "really" from.
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You need to read the whole tweet section. First the Lady questioned the woman about where in Africa her people came from, and was not satisfied with “I don’t know” and finally said “there aren’t records.” The woman was born and raised in Britain (so British accent) told the Lady so, and was still questioned about where she was really from. It definitely was a racist frame of mind - a black woman in traditional African dress cannot be from “here” even when told so.
 
MacMadame

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skatfan said:
You need to read the whole tweet section. First the Lady questioned the woman about where in Africa her people came from, and was not satisfied with “I don’t know” and finally said “there aren’t records.” The woman was born and raised in Britain (so British accent) told the Lady so, and was still questioned about where she was really from. It definitely was a racist frame of mind - a black woman in traditional African dress cannot be from “here” even when told so.
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She also touched the woman's hair without permission.
 
antmanb

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This is like racism 101. Anyone who doesn't get it is being deliberately obtuse. A white person asking a black British born person, with a London accent where they are from, who is not only not satisfied by the answer of the specific Borough of London they are from, but goes on to ask where in Africa they are from is being racist.

Asking 7 times where someone is really from, when they tell you they're born and raised in Britian is not acceptable. Ever.
 
PRlady

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I’m also guessing Lady Hussey is at that stage of old age where the screen disappears. Some of the things my mom said in the early stages of dementia were :yikes: But if that is so, the palace should have have gracefully retired her.
 
D

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We have to keep in mind that there is no recording or transcript, and the conversation as reported is one person's memory of it some time later. The BBC is irresponsible for presenting the exchange as exact dialogue, without a disclaimer - it certainly looks like a transcript, rather than an approximate recollection. I believe it's directionally accurate but am not taking it as exact. I agree Hussey went too far: Fulani was uncomfortable, and the conversation should have stopped at that point.

That said, intentions matter. I think it's just as likely that Hussey was trying to celebrate diversity as she was being racist. Someone dressed in African garb representing an Afro-Caribbean charity probably has a personal story / connection, and I think that's what Lady Hussey was trying to draw out (however awkwardly). People in the US, where I was born and where my accent is standard, ask me where my family is from all the time simply based on surname. Replace Africa with Italy, and replace London with Philadelphia, and I've had this conversation countless times despite being second/third generation. My grandparents had it even more frequently. I think asking once is OK. Our histories are a part of us. Of course, anyone can choose not to discuss, and that choice should be respected.

I do think "where are you from" is a loaded question that's better avoided. In this globalized world, people are "from" all sorts of places, and as I said, I often feel like I'm from nowhere. Where do you live, where did you grow up, do you have a personal connection to Africa / Italy / whatever, all fine in my book. With a little bit of tweaking, this conversation could have easily not gone off the rails.
 
A

attyfan

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Louis ... you credit people who tried to save lives during COVID with nefarious motives because you didn't approve of the methods they used -- and you are doing the same thing with people who object to some of Musk's actions re: Twitter, but you create good motives for someone who is either racist or ill. Someone might have had good intentions for asking "where are you really from" once or twice, but this case involved repeating the same question 7 times, with no attempt at re-phrasing or otherwise making clear what information they are trying to find out.
 
taf2002

taf2002

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El Rey said:
Do I think the person effected is overreacting? Yes.
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I certainly don't think she was overreacting. She was a lot more patient than I would have been. I would not have answered 7 times. My 3rd or 4th reply would have been something like "moving on" & walked away.

The seamstress I use for hemming pants also makes clothes from scratch & sells them in her store. She imports the most beautiful fabrics from Nigeria. I would love for her to make me a dress or blouse - so colorful! - but I'm afraid I would be accused of culture appropriation. I was expressing my admiration one day & she offered to make me something. I was thinking about a jacket to wear over a solid color. I need advice - would this be alright?
 
PRlady

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taf2002 said:
I certainly don't think she was overreacting. She was a lot more patient than I would have been. I would not have answered 7 times. My 3rd or 4th reply would have been something like "moving on" & walked away.

The seamstress I use for hemming pants also makes clothes from scratch & sells them in her store. She imports the most beautiful fabrics from Nigeria. I would love for her to make me a dress or blouse - so colorful! - but I'm afraid I would be accused of culture appropriation. I was expressing my admiration one day & she offered to make me something. I was thinking about a jacket to wear over a solid color. I need advice - would this be alright?
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If she is Nigerian or African herself and offered, no problem. If she’s not, I still think it’s ok. My favorite jacket as a kid was one my aunt brought me from somewhere in Asia. Granted times were different, but everyone admired it.
 
MacMadame

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taf2002 said:
I certainly don't think she was overreacting. She was a lot more patient than I would have been. I would not have answered 7 times. My 3rd or 4th reply would have been something like "moving on" & walked away.

The seamstress I use for hemming pants also makes clothes from scratch & sells them in her store. She imports the most beautiful fabrics from Nigeria. I would love for her to make me a dress or blouse - so colorful! - but I'm afraid I would be accused of culture appropriation. I was expressing my admiration one day & she offered to make me something. I was thinking about a jacket to wear over a solid color. I need advice - would this be alright?
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I go through this every time I think about buying some Indian fancy clothes as I love some of the styles and want to wear them to a Holiday party. Even though people from India have said it's okay, I so far have not done it.


I do think that sometimes people get carried away with yelling "cultural appropriation" though. I remember back in 2016 when some white woman wrote an essay about how she wasn't going to let her little girl dress up as Moana because we should save that costume for POC kids. And many of the other white women in the group said "Oh yeah!" In the meantime, the POC said they didn't care if white kids dressed up as Moana but the other women were in full White Savior mode and didn't listen.

Not to mention: Moana is Hawaiian, not Latino or Black, or any other ethnicity. Lumping all these groups together as if they are all the same bugged me. My take is that either only Indigenous Hawaiians can dress up as Moana or everyone can.

OTOH, many indigenous Hawaiians did object to some aspects of the Maui character and definitely objected to how Disney made his Halloween costume as they felt it was disrespectful to their culture. Note that they were not saying no white boys could dress up as Maui but that certain aspects of the costume were problematic.

So if someone from that culture says this is problematic and cultural appropriation, I would listen to that. I'm not going to listen to some white woman with White Savior complex.
 
D

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attyfan said:
[...] but you create good motives for someone who is either racist or ill.
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You're leaving open the possibility that it's not racist, which is good. In addition to racist or ill, there are other possibilities: rude, oblivious, belligerent, insensitive, etc.

attyfan said:
Someone might have had good intentions for asking "where are you really from" once or twice, but this case involved repeating the same question 7 times, with no attempt at re-phrasing or otherwise making clear what information they are trying to find out.
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I agree, the behavior is wrong, and she did not represent herself or the Palace well. I don't see it as necessarily racist, though, and it's disappointing that the headlines have gone straight to "Palace racism row."

I don't want to drag covid into yet another thread, so I'm going to ignore that rather than respond. I do have a response, though, and can post it on the worldwide health forum if anyone is really interested (guessing not). :lol:
 
Karen-W

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DFJ said:
Does she ever not look amazing?
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Oh, there have been some outfits that have been rather pedestrian. But, I'm in love with her wearing Queen Mary's emerald choker and drop earrings. They were last worn by Diana and Kate does them justice.
 
I

ilovepaydays

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overedge said:
Even if the question hadn't been racist, it would still be rude to ask the same thing seven times in a row.
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This my main thing about this. Is it that hard to, when asking “Where are you from?”, to just continue to go with whatever they answered?

I think this is one of major reasons why “making small talk” seems to be dying in the U.S. - the discussion may initially be perfectly fine, but I think a lot of people don’t want to do it if they risk having to tolerate people being rude or TMI with it.
 
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ballettmaus

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MacMadame said:
She also touched the woman's hair without permission.
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Ew. I never understood why anyone would think it's okay to touch someone else without permission, whether it's someone else's hair or pregnant belly or something else. You just don't do that.

attyfan said:
Someone might have had good intentions for asking "where are you really from" once or twice, but this case involved repeating the same question 7 times, with no attempt at re-phrasing or otherwise making clear what information they are trying to find out.
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Unless the parties are joking, I can't think of a situation where the where someone is "really" from would be asked with good intentions. The "really" part of it implies to me that the asking party thinks the other person is not truthful. If you want to know where someone is from originally, ask where they're from originally, although, I'd probably always ask where the family is originally from or where the other person's roots are. There are plenty of ways to express interest in someone's heritage without being offensive or expressing doubt about that person's honesty.

On that note, my parents and I got our Christmas trees last Saturday and my parents spoke in German as they were trying to maneuver a tree onto the car's roof. One of the sales persons asked me not where we were from but what language they were speaking. Of course, if someone speaks English that is not an option but I thought that was a very polite way to ask, too. (And for the record, that was not in a "political correct" urban area but in Virginia's back-country, not too far from the West Virginia border).
 
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Andora

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Kate's lovely, but that dress's neckline and the choker are kinda fighting each other. (And the photo shops I've seen using her dress as green screen is HYSTERICAL)

But on the idea of seeing more crown jewels, I've had a sad evolution on this. I used to love seeing the different tiaras and jewellery, but after catching up on old John Oliver episodes, I'm reminded of how many items came to the family through years of colonialism. I think the days of parading these items should be numbered, especially as many nations want their diamonds back.

Anyways, Old Lady Hussey should have been retired when the Queen passed away. I'm sure it was considered respectful to keep her on, something-something stupid monarchy protocols, etc. She shouldn't have been at this event, full stop. She embarrassed the BRF with fairly bad timing considering Megan & Harry's Netflix trailer coming out, reminding us this isn't new. And the usual suspects defending this type of behaviour show their own racist asses clearly.

I get intention is important, but it doesn't overrule how our actions affect others, nor excuse our actions themselves. Period. This shouldn't still be up for debate.
 
MsZem

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I don't think that shade of green works on Kate, and the makeup, at least in some pictures, looks overdone. I wish she'd recycled a Jenny Packham dress instead ;)
 
once_upon

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DFJ said:
Dress her in a garbage bag, no jewelry and her hair in a pony tail and she'd still look great. She's one of those lucky enough to pull off anything.
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I dont disagree that she is beautiful and stunning, but she also has a staff to help pull off those looks.

A designer garbage bag, and a hair stylist to put that ponytail into a the perfect look, attention to details - nails polished with a natural look, etc.

If you found her living on the street or frazzled with three kids and no help..
 
A

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