Ross Miner Out Of Olympic Team (OFFICIAL)

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Having been around FSU like forever I have come to learn that people would be upset if USFS went with national finish ala the Johnny weir in 2009. If there were numerical weights to criteria people would get upset over the weights. The bitching goes on, just differently.

The 2009 US Nationals were fascinating.

Rippon skated nervously and did not meet pre - competition expectations. He finished 12th in the short and 6th in the free, and 7th overall.

Weir was sick and should probably have applied for a medical bye.

Coming into the event, he was the 2008 World Bronze medal winner and the 2008/09 Grand Prix Series bronze medal winner. With the strongest body of work of all the men, he was the prime reason three US men would get to attend Worlds in Los Angeles.

Ryan Bradley messed up the short but came back strong with a third place in the free, placing 4th overall.

Brandon Mroz came from nowhere and skated with the strongest technical content in the men's free skate, to place second overall.

Jeremy Abbott, the 2008/09 Grand Prix Series Final winner, won both the short and the free.

The biggest question mark, was Evan Lysacek. He skated a solid short (2nd), but blew the free to place 4th, and third overall. He was also only 8 points ahead of Bradley.

Applying last weekend's template to that competition, would the USFSA still have gone with the top three?

 

[starrynight]

The whole #wegetup thing is sort of ironic to me now.

Particularly as before Nationals the USFSA was tweeting out inspirational quotes like 'Dream big and go after it. It'll take hard work but if you believe in yourself anything can happen #wegetup'

Yeah. Nope. That's a lie.

 

[bardtoob]

Agreed, luckily the skaters themselves seem to be acting maturely especially as they knew the criteria which was deemed necessary because of the team event. By making all the dramatic claims in this thread it really is taking away from the actual nationals event. I hope no skater ever reads threads like this.

Alas because you do not want people to act like figure skating is a real sport and have any passion about it.

You apparently have never seen how real sports coaches behavior towards officials. They scream. They kick dirt. They throw things. They get thrown out of stadiums.

Then there is you, who feels upset because people vent on an internet message board. Pathetic.

 

[olympic]

There still seems to be a lot of people smarting over the decision by the selection committee. I think you all are still looking at Nationals as the Olympic Trials: The US has 3 spots, so the top 3 finishers get to compete at the Olympics. Case closed. But, the USFSA is now correctly using Nationals as a key event, just not the deciding event of who gets to go to Worlds / Olympics.

I am fine with the BOW applying not only to champions but 'mid-level' skaters. It is a move towards ensuring the most consistent move on to the bigger competitions beyond Nationals, especially to Worlds where you are trying to keep / qualify 3 skaters / teams.

I don't believe this was mentioned, but Ross was actually given an opportunity by the USFSA this past season over another skater. The USFSA picked him for SA last Fall and he was actually selected over Tim Dolensky, who outranked him on the ISU list. He had been given an opportunity by the same evil organization who now has 'denied him his right to compete at the Olympics.' Well, Ross responded by not doing so well. Adam was there and did well. Head to head. Adam also beat him soundly earlier at Finlandia by 16 points where Ross had a SB. Ross also had an opportunity at the Autumn Classic and whiffed on that opportunity

 

[bardtoob]

The USFSA picked him for SA last Fall and he was actually selected over Tim Dolensky, who outranked him on the ISU list. He had been given an opportunity by the same evil organization who now has 'denied him his right to compete at the Olympics.' Well, Ross responded by not doing so well. Adam was there and did well. Head to head.

So is Skate America more valuable to you than US Nationals? So is a competition further from the Olympics more indicative to performance at the Olympics to you? ...

Way to build an argument then undermine it!

Just to be clear, for you, Adam and Ross did go head to head on Saturday, that is a day and a half ago, and Adam forgot to try to do two jumps while Ross did exactly what he wanted. SA was neither their most recent head to head meeting nor their closest head to head meeting before the Olympics.

... You really almost had me there. Had you used less details then you might have convinced me

 

[bardtoob]

That did it. I have finally worked out why I am so angry with Adam being named to the Olympic Team.

Had Adam fallen on two jumps with full rotation, underrotation, or downgrades to doubles I would have been fine with him going to the Olympics. However, Adam looked like he got too caught up in himself and did not try on two jumps, and it was like watching him in a track race getting passed at the finish line and losing because he started celebrating for himself before crossing . . . and to me that is disgusting! . . . and definitely not Olympic!

. . . and Ross did the opposite.

As far as I am concerned, the USFS Selection Committee rewarded the hare, not the tortoise, and set a very bad example about how winning is done.

 

[annie_mg]

That did it. I have finally worked out why I am so angry with Adam being named to the Olympic Team.

Had Adam fallen on two jumps with full rotation, underrotation, or downgrades to doubles I would have been fine with him going to the Olympics. However, Adam looked like he got too caught up in himself and did not try on two jumps, and it was like watching him in a track race getting passed at the finish line and losing because he started celebrating for himself before crossing . . . and to me that is disgusting! . . . and definitely not Olympic!

. . . and Ross did the opposite.

As far as I am concerned, the USFS Selection Committee rewarded the hare, not the tortoise, and set a very bad example about how winning is done.

Mistakes such as popped jumps can happen because of a lapse of concentration or a last-minute (or rather second) moment of self-doubt. It could be what happened to Adam. It doesn't mean he was "celebrating for himself" too early. I would hardly call what he did "disgusting". Are you disgusted when you watch any skater pop jumps? Skating clean is not easy, and it's a question of holding it together mentally as much as it is anything else.
I find it a little presumptuous for anyone to think they know what goes on in people's minds when they make mistakes.

 

[bardtoob]

I get your argument. However, mistakes such as popped jumps can happen because of a lapse of concentration or a last-minute (or rather second) moment of self-doubt. It could be what happened to Adam. It doesn't mean he was "celebrating for himself" too early. I would hardly call what he did "disgusting". Are you disgusted when you watch any skater pop jumps? Skating clean is not easy, and it's a question of holding it together mentally as much as it is anything else.
I find it a little presumptuous for anyone to think they know what goes on in people's minds when they make mistakes.

... And he did not hold it together. Like I said, doubles, downgrades, underrotations would have been fine.

I don't care if you think that it is presumptuous. It still disgusting to me, and makes me think "fabulous loser".

To be clear, when I say disgust, I mean the most primal negative emotion.

 

[jlai]

That did it. I have finally worked out why I am so angry with Adam being named to the Olympic Team.

Had Adam fallen on two jumps with full rotation, underrotation, or downgrades to doubles I would have been fine with him going to the Olympics. However, Adam looked like he got too caught up in himself and did not try on two jumps, and it was like watching him in a track race getting passed at the finish line and losing because he started celebrating for himself before crossing . . . and to me that is disgusting! . . . and definitely not Olympic!

. . . and Ross did the opposite.

As far as I am concerned, the USFS Selection Committee rewarded the hare, not the tortoise, and set a very bad example about how winning is done.

I don't know what you are upset about at all. I don't want to get back and forth with you for another 5 pages over this, but perhaps if you explain what is wrong and how to fix it, that may help steer the discussion.

The international committee -- did they set the criteria? I don't know. Someone else can answer. If they don't set the criteria, no need to be mad at them.

Do you hate the criteria they announced to the athletes at Champs Camp? Do you simply want nationals to be Olympic trial?
Or do you hate the way they apply it and you think it should be applied your way? Then which is the right way?

These are separate questions. For instance, some of us may be ok with changing critieria for the future so nationals is the Olympic trials. However, some of us are not ok with changing criteria midway once they are announced to the athletes. It's not fair for athletes to go bust their chops to build a body of work internationally, place top 4 at all events, then be told it doesn't matter. But whether the criteria should be the way it is is a separate question.

BTW, why are you directing your anger at Rippon? He is just another hardworking athlete like all of them.

 

[VGThuy]

I wonder what would have happened if Grant had skated well and placed above Vincent. If Adam and Jason ended up performing the same way as they did on Saturday night, I bet this would have been an even bigger and more complicated debate. I do think the ideal team for the U.S. was a Nathan, Adam, and Jason one and having Vincent in 6th would have helped that and Ross helped that until Adam and Jason skated. If Grant was in the mix as well, it'd be an interesting discussion. Using BOW to bypass one skater is one thing, but two? I guess the USFS would have stuck by the BOW even harder and maybe the team would have been the same.

 

[bardtoob]

BTW, why are you directing your anger at Rippon? He is just another hardworking athlete like all of them.

I am disgusted by Rippon because he performed like a fabulous loser, which is his responsibility, and the committee is supposed to select winners to represent the country, which is their responsibility.

 

[vesperholly]

Mistakes such as popped jumps can happen because of a lapse of concentration or a last-minute (or rather second) moment of self-doubt. It could be what happened to Adam. It doesn't mean he was "celebrating for himself" too early. I would hardly call what he did "disgusting". Are you disgusted when you watch any skater pop jumps? Skating clean is not easy, and it's a question of holding it together mentally as much as it is anything else.
I find it a little presumptuous for anyone to think they know what goes on in people's minds when they make mistakes.

100% agreed. Also jumps happen SO fast. Popping isn't always a choice, often it's a physical reaction to a bad edge or pick. It's your body saying, "nope, warning, too dangerous". Attempting to rotate a jump from a badly flawed takeoff is how skaters get hurt. Adam has never been the kind of skater to pop jumps because of "mental weakness" or whatever kind of garbage assumptions that are being made.

But I think some people are just determined to see Adam as a big loser no matter what he did prior to those two popped jumps, either in the season, the competition or hell, the same program.

 

[SmallFairy]

@bardtoob yes, please be done with figure skating!

 

[becca]

As soon as you say "for someone of Chen's caliber" that is not applying it to all skaters.

All skaters have the opportunity to earn such body of work. I just think it should be really special body of work.

 

[BittyBug]

I am disgusted by Rippon because he performed like a fabulous loser, which is his responsibility, and the committee is supposed to select winners to represent the country, which is their responsibility.

You long ago lost it in this thread. I'm not sure what has you so set off, but you might consider stepping away to regain some perspective.

 

[ZilphaK]

IMO, one major problem is that, for decades, the "body of work" was relevant only to the decision of whether to grant a requested medical bye...and event then, the idea of dumping the silver medalist, but keeping the bronze medalist was unheard of. This is simply too new a criteria for anyone to expect people to adjust to it so quickly.

Also, when people talk about the potential influence of this on future skaters: a distinction should be drawn between those kids already interested in skating now and those whose parents are learning about this decision. I don't think many people will pull their kids from a sport they might love. But, when people aware of this are picking sports classes or programs for their kids, there are enough reasons not to choose skating (the cost, for example) and this doesn't help move the balance to the other side.

I think that coaches should be held ethically responsible to have honest, upfront conversations with parents when parents put their kids into figure skating. Most parents to this sport are first-timers who are as confused about mohawks and testing and "the lutz corner" as they are about IJS scoring, let alone the politics of the sport. I think a good many middling skaters get strung along with hopes of "you're going to be the one who is different and beats the odds" when the odds are things like not having the $30,000+ to train every year, or injury potential, or overcoming the risks of eating disorders, or being at a rink where coaching is marginally OK and getting better coaching means moving far away, or what it takes to get a full flight of triples by 15 or 16 and quads for men before they are out of their teens.

I think there are coaches who are complicit in draining parents' pockets on a wish and a dream, and while all sports are "buyer beware" for parents, as a parent who has been in this sport for a while, I find that it is especially difficult to get solid, rational and realistic guidance in figure skating, even when you're asking for it point blank.

When I talk to parents about figure skating, I mention the fun and exercise of the sport, the testing process, show skating, synchro, fun at low-level competitions, and the benefits for hockey players. When parents mention Olympics, or even Nationals, I talk about $$$ first, not talent or dreams or drive. I think responsible coaches would have that same kind of conversation.

 

[bardtoob]

You long ago lost it in this thread. I'm not sure what has you so set off, but you might consider stepping away to regain some perspective.

I wasn't competing. I was discussing for entertainment ...

 

[bardtoob]

@bardtoob yes, please be done with figure skating!

... ... Made my day ...

 

[olympic]

So is Skate America more valuable to you than US Nationals? So is a competition further from the Olympics more indicative to performance at the Olympics to you? ...

Way to build an argument then undermine it!

Just to be clear, for you, Adam and Ross did go head to head on Saturday, that is a day and a half ago, and Adam forgot to try to do two jumps while Ross did exactly what he wanted. SA was neither their most recent head to head meeting nor their closest head to head meeting before the Olympics.

... You really almost had me there. Had you used less details then you might have convinced me

You need to take a deep breath and check yourself.

My big point in my last post was that Ross was given an opportunity by the USFSA over a skater that may have been more deserving. He failed to capitalize on it. The competitions l listed are just demonstrating that there have been head to heads between Adam and Ross. More often than not, Adam came out on top. For me, that is an interesting aspect to consider for BOW

 

[becca]

The reason I say I only would give Body of work for certain skaters is because I think you want to make sure the skater you are sending is clearly better.

I wasn't convinced last year that Brown was better than Zhou. For a lot of good reasons.

Yes Adam has done better internationally than Miner but looking at his GPF skates I don't think Adam has been earth shattering and if Miner skated like that he might end up ahead of both Adam and Brown again.

There was no doubt in my mind that Ashley was better than Mirai but folks saying Mirai should go over Polina. I didn't think it was so clear Mirai was better folks were arguing PCs cuz Polina had been juniors (even though Polinas TES was stronger)

I just think in cases of skaters that are middling body of work is stupid and it can make hard for young skaters to give opportunities.

I don't think I am saying is unreasonable or unfair.

 

[Yazmeen]

I am disgusted by Rippon because he performed like a fabulous loser, which is his responsibility, and the committee is supposed to select winners to represent the country, which is their responsibility.

So exactly what was Ross's "responsibility" when he didn't perform well at SA and his Challenger event? Let's looks at SA and his free program:

• He popped his quad into a double. Not even a triple, but a DOUBLE.
• He put a hand down on the ice after his triple axel to keep from falling
• He stumbled out of his triple lutz
• After that, the "gas" went out of the performance, he appeared to slow down and give up.
• And at the end, he SINGLED a double axel, popped it completely

I want to make it clear my intent isn't to pick on Ross - it's to pick on you. In the commentary during Ross's SA skate, Tara and Johnny VERY CLEARLY brought up that results at Nationals weren't the only consideration for the Olympic team and Tara emphasized that the GP results could be very important in the selection process. Quoth Tara: "That's why every Grand Prix COUNTS." Based on what I saw in Ross's skate, by your "logic," he could also be accused of performing like a "fabulous loser" because it's pretty clear he gave up after the lutz mistake. But at the same time, don't tell me for one minute that Ross didn't know how much that GP could affect his chances at the Olympic team. The look on his face at the end said it all, he knew he blew a serious opportunity.

We get it already, you are pissed off, you appear to seriously dislike Adam, and you are extremely angry that he was chosen over Ross. But you're also not making sense at times, especially with that "loser" argument (not to mention your concept that BOW should have only applied to Chen). You are right up there with caseyedwards melting down about Adam's selection over a man who has managed to do one clean quad over years of skating, which also doesn't make a hell of lot of sense considering the history of casey's quad obsession. And you're doing this for "entertainment?" No, you're doing this because this is driving you bonkers and you desperately want someone to agree with you. Which doesn't look like it's going to happen. And it doesn't change the Olympic team. If it bothers you so much, feel free to bypass the men's event in Pyeongchang; get a massage or take a yoga class and calm down a bit.

 

[starrynight]

What's frustrating to me is that it's not like Ross stumbled into 2nd by default. He absolutely slayed, laid down a huge score. Rippon had to then immediately skate afterwards, in good health and could not match it. I would not be surprised if he was spooked by Miner's skate.

In an objective sport, this would have been heralded as a David and Goliath moment.

But it's only good enough for second alternate below the 6th place finisher. This sort of thing is unheard of in real sports.

Maybe if Ross Miner had more twitter followers or had some viral videos or was worth more endorsement dollars for the fed we wouldn't be in this position who knows? Or maybe if Ross' direct competitors had been unpopular with fans/the media this whole body of work criteria would have conveniently been overlooked?

Because we all know that if a high profile popular skater had a bad GP circuit but stormed home at Nationals we would not be having a conversation about leaving them off the team due to body of work.

Given the nature of figure skating and the speed at which fortunes change, I think the question should be - the Olympics are in precisely 4 weeks time. Who is in form right this very moment? Not who was in form last September at Finlandia or Cup of Russia.

But my eyes will roll out of my head if the US skaters get on twitter during the Olympics and start being #outraged about mean journalists writing articles questioning figure skating's integrity as a sport.

I will also be at my wits end if anyone from USFSA tweets out #wegetup about Ross at 4CC. More like #wekeepyoudown

 

[Tavi]

So is Skate America more valuable to you than US Nationals? So is a competition further from the Olympics more indicative to performance at the Olympics to you? ...

Way to build an argument then undermine it!

Just to be clear, for you, Adam and Ross did go head to head on Saturday, that is a day and a half ago, and Adam forgot to try to do two jumps while Ross did exactly what he wanted. SA was neither their most recent head to head meeting nor their closest head to head meeting before the Olympics.

... You really almost had me there. Had you used less details then you might have convinced me

If Adam and Ross had only competed head to head twice during the period covered by the criteria, and had no other results, there’s a strong possibility Ross would be on the team because right now, because Nationals (Ross> Adam) is a Tier 1 competition and SA (opposite) is Tier 2. But the criteria take into account more than that.

As someone pointed out earlier, Ross was sent to two Challenger series events this season, where he placed 5/6 with low scores. While they are Tier 3 events, they are a way to earn ranking points and medals and show that you're a strong competitor. Despite his less than stellar showings, USFS selected him over others for SA, where he again failed to have a strong showing or competive score. Its clear that USFS thought enough of him to give him 3 opportunities to build his body of work this season - a sign they valued his talent, and more than they gave many others. While he did better in 2017 than 2016 (9/12 on GP), the only place he had a strong showing was at Nationals. Since the criteria take cumulative results and scoring trends for all competitors into account, his good result at a single Tier 1 competition simply wasn’t enough.

I’ve heard that Mark Mitchell said it was unfair that Ross didn’t know he was pretty much out of contention for the Olympic Team before he went to Nationals, that if he had known, he never would have gone, etc. In view of what happened with Mirai in 2014, I honestly wonder how MM could have read the criteria, looked at Ross’s results over the past two seasons, and not figured that out and prepared Ross for the possibility well in advance. Ross has a ton of talent, but I don’t get the sense that he was ever driven like his competitors to take full advantage of every opportunity given to him in order to make that team. JMO.

 

[SmallFairy]

Great post @vesperholly

I'm not entertained by people calling hardworking skaters disgusting.

 

[Areski]

The reason I say I only would give Body of work for certain skaters is because I think you want to make sure the skater you are sending is clearly better.

I wasn't convinced last year that Brown was better than Zhou. For a lot of good reasons.

Yes Adam has done better internationally than Miner but looking at his GPF skates I don't think Adam has been earth shattering and if Miner skated like that he might end up ahead of both Adam and Brown again.

There was no doubt in my mind that Ashley was better than Mirai but folks saying Mirai should go over Polina. I didn't think it was so clear Mirai was better folks were arguing PCs cuz Polina had been juniors (even though Polinas TES was stronger)

I just think in cases of skaters that are middling body of work is stupid and it can make hard for young skaters to give opportunities.

I don't think I am saying is unreasonable or unfair.

I subscribe to this opinion.

This vicious circle discourages skaters and viewers. It makes even potentially harder to get big assignment like Worlds or Olympics in your future when you're not even quite allowed to earn that BOW. Basically smoke screen to allow politicking.

I am convinced that everyone else would else receive < call for that 3A of Jason Brown in SP but they turned a blind eye to that so it was very telling as well who they favour anyway.

 

[VGThuy]

I see the potential of that danger. However, in the Adam v. Ross case, Ross had 11 seasons of doing senior internationals including receiving GP assignments and challenger assignments so he had ample opportunity to earn that BOW.

 

[Anita18]

Having actually been at the arena on Saturday, I give Adam a pass on the anger toward him. I don’t get why people are angry at him at all, actually. Unlike Ashley (who also messed up majorly, although not quite AS much) Adam KNEW he messed up. He ended his program in shock and devastation. He didn’t even take his bows properly. He didn’t seem like he felt was entitled to good scores. I don’t get why people seem to think he is. He didn’t think it was enough, and seemed grateful for the opportunity given to him. I don’t understand what’s so “fabulous” about it. It’s the opposite - he seemed humbled.

 

[Vash01]

Mistakes such as popped jumps can happen because of a lapse of concentration or a last-minute (or rather second) moment of self-doubt. It could be what happened to Adam. It doesn't mean he was "celebrating for himself" too early. I would hardly call what he did "disgusting". Are you disgusted when you watch any skater pop jumps? Skating clean is not easy, and it's a question of holding it together mentally as much as it is anything else.
I find it a little presumptuous for anyone to think they know what goes on in people's minds when they make mistakes.

Skaters do pop jumps into singles sometimes. What was unique about Adam was that hebpopped two in a row toward the end of his performance. After the first pop we should have seen an effort on his part to complete the next jump. Had he rotated the next jump and fallen on it, it wouldn't have been such a disastrous thing, because it would have shown that he was fighting. We didn't see any fight. He had fallen on the quad lutz, but he recovered from that. However, toward the end he didn't bother to recover from the first pop. He did not fight till the end.

I can't read his mind, but I wonder if - 1) he felt that he had done enough to win the silver?, 2) he just gave up on the performance?, 3) did he assume that no matter what, the committee would select him based on BOW because he made it to the GPF? All those are troubling questions for an athlete who must compete at the highest level.

I still understand why the selection committee has more confidence in Adam than in Ross Miner (and I think even Than in Zhou). I understand why they really wanted to send Adam and Jason to the Olympics, but this attitude on the part of a top level skater concerns me.

I hope Adam will learn from this experience. And not give up on a performance, no matter how many mistakes he makes.

 

[attyfan]

I would put the parents into two categories - one those who put their children in skating because they want their kids to have fun and get some exercise. For these parents, whether their children become Olympians one day is not really in the thought process. In the other category are the parents who put their kids in a sport because they believe they will go to the Olympics (a small group to begin with), and these parents are going to believe that their child is going and there's probably nothing anyone could do or say, no matter how logical and well thought out, that would change their opinions.

I don't believe that many parents put their kids into skating because they want their kids to become Olympians. The problem that I see is that parents who put their kids into skating for fun or exercise can't encourage any child that proves to be gifted to excel in skating the way they could encourage a child that proved to be gifted in other sports -- because going for big dreams in skating is more difficult than going for big dreams in other sports (due to costs, etc). Once upon a time, doing well at Nationals could unlock doors allowing skaters to dream big -- people got on skating shows, etc by that means, as well as improved chances for endorsements etc -- especially in Oly years. No more -- and the way that the USFS has treated Ross -- shows that.

BTW, does anyone know what Ross does outside of skating? Job? College?

 

[Skittl1321]

If Adam and Ross had only competed head to head twice during the period covered by the criteria, and had no other results, there’s a strong possibility Ross would be on the team because right now, because Nationals (Ross> Adam) is a Tier 1 competition and SA (opposite) is Tier 2. But the criteria take into account more than that.

As someone pointed out earlier, Ross was sent to two Challenger series events this season, where he placed 5/6 with low scores. While they are Tier 3 events, they are a way to earn ranking points and medals and show that you're a strong competitor. Despite his less than stellar showings, USFS selected him over others for SA, where he again failed to have a strong showing or competive score. Its clear that USFS thought enough of him to give him 3 opportunities to build his body of work this season - a sign they valued his talent, and more than they gave many others. While he did better in 2017 than 2016 (9/12 on GP), the only place he had a strong showing was at Nationals. Since the criteria take cumulative results and scoring trends for all competitors into account, his good result at a single Tier 1 competition simply wasn’t enough.

I’ve heard that Mark Mitchell said it was unfair that Ross didn’t know he was pretty much out of contention for the Olympic Team before he went to Nationals, that if he had known, he never would have gone, etc. In view of what happened with Mirai in 2014, I honestly wonder how MM could have read the criteria, looked at Ross’s results over the past two seasons, and not figured that out and prepared Ross for the possibility well in advance. Ross has a ton of talent, but I don’t get the sense that he was ever driven like his competitors to take full advantage of every opportunity given to him in order to make that team. JMO.

I think if Adam/Jason/Max were all buried in the 8-10 range, and Ross was 2nd- Ross would probably be going. But Adam wasn't exactly buried, he was just off the podium.