Re-opening rinks with social distancing

[MacMadame]

Also, unless a personal waiver (seen at a few rinks) is written very carefully -- from my understanding (I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV), negligence on the part of the rink or coach could void the waiver...?

I went to a USFS seminar on insurance and the lawyer giving it said flat out that waivers are not worth the paper they are printed on from a legal standpoint. (But to get people to sign them anyway because they can serve as a deterrent for being sued.)

In the US, you can't sign away your rights. If the rink or event organizers are negligent, it doesn't matter what you signed.

In terms of how much officials care about businesses that open up in violation of public health orders, what they are doing where I live (and as far as I can tell, most places) is that if a business gets reported, law enforcement goes out to visit and educates them. If they still won't shut down, they look at ways to pressure them without arresting them. This includes threats to withdraw any licenses required to run that business. So a liquor license for a restaurant, for example. And if that doesn't work (or there isn't anything they can use as leverage), then there are fines.

A business can't stay in business without their licenses or with heavy fines. A thrift store near me opened up early and ended up getting over $20k in fines.

 

[ZilphaK]

I went to a USFS seminar on insurance and the lawyer giving it said flat out that waivers are not worth the paper they are printed on from a legal standpoint. (But to get people to sign them anyway because they can serve as a deterrent for being sued.)

In the US, you can't sign away your rights. If the rink or event organizers are negligent, it doesn't matter what you signed.

In terms of how much officials care about businesses that open up in violation of public health orders, what they are doing where I live (and as far as I can tell, most places) is that if a business gets reported, law enforcement goes out to visit and educates them. If they still won't shut down, they look at ways to pressure them without arresting them. This includes threats to withdraw any licenses required to run that business. So a liquor license for a restaurant, for example. And if that doesn't work (or there isn't anything they can use as leverage), then there are fines.

A business can't stay in business without their licenses or with heavy fines. A thrift store near me opened up early and ended up getting over $20k in fines.

Yup, yup, and yup. Thanks for the confirmation on the waivers. I thought that to be true when looking in to USA Hockey concussion waivers. If a kid smacks his head on the ice, is woozy getting up, skates back to bench slowly, and then the coach doesn't do what he's supposed to do to assess the injury or pressures the kid about "the big game, our reputation as 12-year-old phenoms of the South Bumpus Region is on the line" and the kid goes out, gets head smacked again and Really Bad Things Now Happen, that waiver could most likely best be used to wrap a cheeseburger.

BONUS: Pressuring a child to take part in competition or practice in spite of an injury could also be a SafeSport violation.

 

[Sk8yDad]

At this point, a Parent can decide to get their kid a haircut, skate or even attend a protest.
It's not other people's business.

 

[overedge]

At this point, a Parent can decide to get their kid a haircut, skate or even attend a protest.
It's not other people's business.

It is other people's business. Because that kid could come in contact with the v*r*s without knowing it, or without displaying symptoms, and be transmitting it to other people.

 

[Sk8yDad]

The kid could get it at the grocery store, Costco, the Mall, lake or any other "approved place" in PA as easily as a skating rink. If a rink is limiting contact among skaters and following CDC protocols, it may be an even safer place than a dirty and crowded Wal Mart. Finally, many rinks will not survive and there won't be any skating period because of extremely arbitrary governmental decisions. Skating rinks are not magically any safer in Delaware, Georgia, Florida, etc (that are open), than PA.

 

[overedge]

The kid could get it at the grocery store, Costco, the Mall, lake or any other "approved place" in PA as easily as a skating rink. If a rink is limiting contact among skaters and following CDC protocols, it may be an even safer place than a dirty and crowded Wal Mart. Finally, many rinks will not survive and there won't be any skating period because of extremely arbitrary governmental decisions. Skating rinks are not magically any safer in Delaware, Georgia, Florida, etc (that are open), than PA.

I don't see how this relates to your statement that what a kid does is up to them and their parents. By that logic, everywhere should be open with no protocols whatsoever.

 

[MacMadame]

Skating rinks are not magically any safer in Delaware, Georgia, Florida, etc (that are open), than PA.

A lot of people could argue convincingly that skating rinks are equally unsafe in all 3 places. But even if they are safer in one place than another, there is nothing arbitrary about that.

There's a reason we have state laws and county laws and city laws instead of all laws coming from the Feds. Protocols and what is and isn't open would necessarily be different in different parts of the country because the v*rus has hit different parts of the country differently.

 

[spinZZ]

The kid could get it at the grocery store, Costco, the Mall, lake or any other "approved place" in PA as easily as a skating rink. If a rink is limiting contact among skaters and following CDC protocols, it may be an even safer place than a dirty and crowded Wal Mart. Finally, many rinks will not survive and there won't be any skating period because of extremely arbitrary governmental decisions. Skating rinks are not magically any safer in Delaware, Georgia, Florida, etc (that are open), than PA.

What you say is true. But this is not an issue of risk elimination (reducing the risk of infection to zero is not viable), but an issue of risk reduction (not just for one individual, but for the population at large). That's why no state mandated a total lockdown, but allowed essential businesses to remain open. What is an "essential business" is somewhat arbitrary, varies from state to state, sometimes unfair. Similarly, as states open up in phases, what businesses fall into each phase is somewhat arbitrary, varies from state to state, sometimes unfair. But a free-for-all re-opening would likely be disastrous.

 

[Theoreticalgirl]

A hockey coach at a rink near Philly got "in trouble" (not sure how) for "sneaking" kids onto the ice. (From my "source.) PA Department of Health has taken over fielding complaints, giving warnings and taking action.

As they say around these parts, Inquiring Minds Want to Know

 

[Sk8yDad]

I can't speak for all states. The Protocols in Pennsylvania are arbitrary and capricious.
They are administered by a proven incompetent administration that killed the most vulnerable seniors in nursing homes. This administration also gets to choose which businesses are allowed to live or die. It's unjust.
Our state should be as open for business and skating as other states.

Based on what I know, I do feel it is up to a parents to make choices for the well-being of their children. Most parents are responsible and more capable to do this than incompetent politicians. Again, choosing to patronize a Wal Mart or a clean skating rink, the rink is a safer place for kids and people the kids will associate with at a later time.

 

[Theoreticalgirl]

I can't speak for all states. The Protocols in Pennsylvania are arbitrary and capricious.
They are administered by a proven incompetent administration that killed the most vulnerable seniors in nursing homes. This administration also gets to choose which businesses are allowed to live or die. It's unjust.
Our state should be as open for business and skating as other states.

Based on what I know, I do feel it is up to a parents to make choices for the well-being of their children. Most parents are responsible and more capable to do this than incompetent politicians. Again, choosing to patronize a Wal Mart or a clean skating rink, the rink is a safer place for kids and people the kids will associate with at a later time.

Speaking as a PA resident living in Philadelphia, sounds like you have a bone to pick with Governor Wolf and/or Dr. Levine. If anything, PA's ability to manage the health crisis has been severely hindered thanks to selfish folks who don't give a rat's ass about the well-being of the public as a whole.

 

[Sk8yDad]

I agree because most of the people you describe live in Philadelphia.
That's unfortunately making life miserable for the rest of the Commonwealth.

 

[ZilphaK]

As they say around these parts, Inquiring Minds Want to Know

Yeaaaaah...I'd like to know the details, too. Saw it on a hockey discussion board but those people don't know how to gossip the right way.

 

[ZilphaK]

Based on what I know, I do feel it is up to a parents to make choices for the well-being of their children. Most parents are responsible and more capable to do this than incompetent politicians. Again, choosing to patronize a Wal Mart or a clean skating rink, the rink is a safer place for kids and people the kids will associate with at a later time.

It. Is. Not. A. Matter. Of. Choice. Skating. Rinks. Are. Not. Allowed. To. Be. Open. Right. Now. In Pennsylvania. Because. We. Are. In. The. Midst. Of. A. Global. And. Regional. Pandoomic. You might not like it, but saying it's a choice to allow your kid to skate in PA right now is like saying it's your choice to allow them to drive a car on the Schuylkill Expressway at 12 years old or have a few drinks at the bar with you to celebrate 8th grade graduation. These laws are in place precisely because, while some parents are, of course, responsible, time and time again parents have also shown themselves to be very irresponsible to the point of jeopardizing the health and welfare of minors -- always a vulnerable population -- even those minors who are their kids and who they also love very much.

At times, even reasonable parents make shady, dumb, and unethical decisions on behalf of their children -- decisions that are physically, emotionally and psychologically damaging to kids -- and nowhere do we see examples of that more clearly than in youth sports. Google it. There are thousands and thousands of articles out there about parents who have made their kids' lives hell because of youth sports, causing kids to hate the sport, and overbearing parents irreparably damaging their relationship with their child, and driving up costs all around because every 8 year old is Olympics or pro bound, and there's a coach, program, travel team, tournament, scout ready to swoop in and drive up costs for everyone.

You know how I know this is true? Because I know people are sneaking their kids in to rinks right now, and it's shameful. Coaches are sneaking onto ice, and I can't see how this is anything but a violation of PSA ethics. Businesses are putting themselves in jeopardy. This is exactly the kind of thing that gets warned about -- kids and parents getting so wrapped up in youth sports that child and parent identity gets unhealthily enmeshed and they can no longer "think outside the box" to make reasonable -- and in this case -- correct decisions.

This craziness is exactly why kids' sports are not to be trusted to manage themselves and why the PA Departments of Health are taking time to be thorough with more specific guidelines and holding back until they're pretty sure they are going to get it really right considering all the factors, and bravo to them.

No matter anyone's personal experience or thoughts or feelings or Google doctorate, the fact is that this is going to be an ongoing situation for months to come and we're all crossing fingers for the fall and hoping the second wave doesn't bring us to our knees. We get a short reprieve right now. This is what has always been predicted, and very smart people with lots of degrees all pretty much agree we take it slow, stay away from each other, and that businesses that make money on indoor recreating -- places filled with all kinds of bodily fluids (see previous conversation: snot and blood flying out of the nose while spinning) -- take it especially slow, and that includes skating rinks. Good grief.

The entirety of PA is a spit away from Philly, NJ and NYC, location of one of the world's biggest hot spots. That makes PA vastly different than Georgia, Florida and wherever else.

And yes, going to Walmart is stupid, but that's always been the case.

 

[Debbie S]

MD is starting phase 2 on Friday at 5 pm, but it's likely not every county will choose to do so. Initially, "indoor fitness centers" were listed as being in phase 2, but it appears they've been moved into phase 3 (and ice rinks has its own category). And it's likely that even when we can start phase 3, the larger jurisdictions will wait longer. At this point, I'm just hoping we can start club ice in Sept as planned. It's possible one rink (in a county that has had fewer cases) may open sometime this summer.

I think DE began the process of reopening this week, so their rinks may reopen sooner.

 

[Rock2]

I agree because most of the people you describe live in Philadelphia.
That's unfortunately making life miserable for the rest of the Commonwealth.

This sentiment is percolating in Ontario, Canada. I'm in Toronto - big hot spot but improving. A few scattered warm spots in the south part of the province but the north is practically v*rus free. My parents live up there and they say there's real division and resentment because Toronto is effectively holding up the show. The government is trying to sort out a regional plan but it's more complicated than it sounds when it comes to creating artificial borders.

As for the thread overall, geez this is complex, no? Issues of policy development, regulation and then enforcement. None of it will be done perfectly and is all further complicated I'm sure by a huge crunch in resources.

 

[ZilphaK]

This sentiment is percolating in Ontario, Canada. I'm in Toronto - big hot spot but improving. A few scattered warm spots in the south part of the province but the north is practically v*rus free. My parents live up there and they say there's real division and resentment because Toronto is effectively holding up the show. The government is trying to sort out a regional plan but it's more complicated than it sounds when it comes to creating artificial borders.

As for the thread overall, geez this is complex, no? Issues of policy development, regulation and then enforcement. None of it will be done perfectly and is all further complicated I'm sure by a huge crunch in resources.

That's a problem here, too. PA, NY, NJ, DE, MD, VA can really be treated as one huge training site with skaters and coaches traveling to rinks (nightmare for contact tracing) and then to work, shopping, etc. when things open up. As I've said, it can feel like hot spots are a long way away, but even here in "middle of nowhere" PA, you're an hour or two from "somewhere" and the travel interaction is heavy. The governor closed us down pretty quickly, and thank goodness.

 

[MacMadame]

Again, choosing to patronize a Wal Mart or a clean skating rink, the rink is a safer place for kids and people the kids will associate with at a later time.

Science does not support this statement. The issue is time of exposure. Going into a grocery (or any retail store) where you are constantly moving and not in the same vicinity as a possibly infected person for more than brief moments of time is very different from being in contact with the same group of people for an hour. If someone at the rink is infected and is there for an hour, they will have time to leave a huge viral load in the air and on surfaces. And the other people at the rink for an hour will be breathing it in at a minimum. (But also probably touching things, then touching their face.)

And this is another reason we have a public health system that makes rules for everyone. Because not everyone understands the risks and without that understanding, will make decisions based on misinformation and/or misunderstanding.

 

[Sk8yDad]

Science does not support this statement.

The "science" is interpreted and analyzed in PA by the PA Department of Health.
Unfortunately, our Secretary of Health has NO training in infectious disease control. Dr. Levine's background was in Pediatrics as the Chief of the Division of Adolescent Medicine and Eating Disorders at the Penn State Hershey Medical Center. These are not the qualifications to understand pandemic issues facing Pennsylvanians. There is no confidence in this administration on understanding "science."

Finally, "science" was don't wear a mask one day, now wear one the next day.
Sweden has no lock down at all and they would likely tell you they are using "science" to make their decisions.
Predicting the weather is science too. If Columbus followed the "science" of his time, he would not have discovered America. The "science" of kids skating at rinks cannot be much different for the "middle of nowhere PA" than for those in neighboring Delaware.

We have gotten a bit off track from my original comment that no kid or parent in PA is going to jail for allowing their child to skate. This is especially certain when our government struggles to maintain order and safety of its citizens from violence in our cities. We have bigger issues facing us than people wearing masks, being five feet away from one another or kids skating. Some Skating Mom or Dad doesn't need to be bullied for letting their kid skate. Nor should a skating coach be shamed because he needs to pay his mortgage or a rink owner for trying to make a payroll and stay out of bankruptcy.

 

[MacMadame]

It's not "science" just because you don't understand it. The advice on masks was changed because new information came to light about how C19 is transmitted. Kids skating somewhere that has few cases is different than kids skating somewhere with lots of cases. For example, if there are too many cases, contact tracers get overwhelmed and can't shut down hot spots effectively.

ETA and the science of the time supported Columbus. It's a myth that educated people still thought the world was flat. That's why he got his expedition funded.

 

[Debbie S]

USFS has released a technical notification that waives testing requirements for the qualifying season (assuming we have a season). Skaters can register to skate up 1 level if they choose. Also applies to the Collegiate Championships which are scheduled for early Aug, which I doubt we'll have. It does not apply to Adult Sectionals or AN.

 

[ZilphaK]

Sorry, it's not bullying to point out when someone is doing something wrong, dangerous, unethical, and double shame on anyone who is given charge of mentoring a child, parent or coach. Sneaking kids into rinks is bad parenting and if a coach is proven to have put a child in jeopardy it's going to be a legal issue and a SafeSport report. Lots of people are struggling financially and still doing what's right. And I'm going to say it, but as a predominantly white and wealthy sport, this kind of "I'm gonna do what I want " smacks of the kind of race and class privilege people are protesting against. If people feel bullied for being told they are wrong, here's what to do: Listen, reflect, do better.

 

[el henry]

I agree because most of the people you describe live in Philadelphia.
That's unfortunately making life miserable for the rest of the Commonwealth.

Bullfeathers.

I live in Lehigh County. I am fine with every single restriction that Gov. Wolf and Dr. Levine have instituted. And I know plenty of folks here in the Lehigh Valley who feel that way.

Of course, we have folks who get their views from the Tea Party Tattler just like anywhere else. People who didn't like Gov. Wolf before don't like him now. Hey, that's their right. But they need to realize that the majority of the folks in PA feel otherwise.

And we're going into the yellow tomorrow, so the "but muh freedoms" crowd can go on to their next Q sourced story

And I have no idea when the rinks are opening

 

[mjb52]

In general, I am trying to stay out of these discussions, but some of you should read this story: https://tinyurl.com/yct5stoy - this is about a questionable study that was published in prestigious journals based on very questionable data. It's not fair to bully people who have questions about the reliability of the information that is out there right now. It's important to raise questions - people raising questions about this paper is how the issues with this study were discovered. Here is more info about just how unreliable and questionable the data behind the study was: https://tinyurl.com/ybowojqo - this is coming from the Guardian, a generally left-ish paper btw

 

[overedge]

@Michalle the links you posted aren't working because of FSU blocking words related to the v*r*s. Can you try reposting them as tinyurls? https://tinyurl.com/

 

[mjb52]

@Michalle the links you posted aren't working because of FSU blocking words related to the v*r*s. Can you try reposting them as tinyurls? https://tinyurl.com/

There's something I have to do for the next hour but I'll repost with tinyurls once I'm done.

 

[MacMadame]

In general, I am trying to stay out of these discussions, but some of you should read this story: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...s-paper-that-halted-hydroxychloroquine-trials - this is a questionable study that was published in prestigious journals based on very questionable data.

And the responsible thing was done. Recommend not using the drug except in a hospital setting until more was known.

 

[mjb52]

No, that's not what was done. Actual clinical trials to test this drug's reliability were halted around the world based on a very questionable study using data from a company that appears to have no credibility at all.

 

[MacMadame]

If they were halted, why did I just read about one that published initial findings yesterday? (This is a rhetorical question.)

If you think something might be harmful, you have a duty to mitigate that potential harm. Pausing a study to make sure it's being done safely is not a horrible thing that proves science is arbitrary.

 

[mjb52]

Have you read either of these articles? The fact that legitimate scientific studies were halted based on information from what appears to have been a pure scam artist is a big deal. The fact that this study was published at all, especially in two of the most trusted medical journals, and relied upon by the WHO, is a big deal. I don't know what you think you are accomplishing by trying to pretend that isn't true. The final section of this article is very specific about why this is a significant issue: https://tinyurl.com/y7q99w94