Prince Andrew

[Vagabond]

 

[millyskate]

Of all reports, Andrew is a man of poor character whose actions have finally caught up with him.

In conversation we probably need to remember that times have changed fast. In 2000, I was in college and a freshly appointed head of department was known to have had relationships with 6 students beneath the age of 16 and plenty more above (16 was the age of consent in the UK at the time).

Two members of staff out of about 70 opposed the nomination, stood their ground and resigned. They were vilified and their reputations and careers suffered.
All the other staff members backed him massively and ridiculed suggestions that he wasn’t suitable.

Out of the 400 students I can only remember one who spoke out against his nomination and that was me. And my motivations weren’t what they would be today: I was close in age to the victims and struggled to see them as such. I just thought a man who had so little regard for his wife and child could likely not be trusted with the interest of students.
I’m sure there were one or two other students speaking up but they sure were a clear minority.

I remember his whole department - about 150 students - gave him a standing O when his nomination was finally approved. And I remember being made to feel “stuck up” for having such outdated principles (stuck up was today’s “bigoted”)

Very sadly it comes as a surprise to probably no one that overly wealthy people including royalty used prostitution back then. And with the victim here being over the age of consent both in the UK and NYC at the time, the event wouldn’t have been judged then as it is today. We now have a better understanding of the dynamics of human trafficking, but they were not taken into account even as recently as 20 years ago.

I didn’t know FSUers back in 2000 but I wonder if they would all have been as brave as the two staff who resigned. I wonder if they would have been among the 5 or so students timidly suggesting that their new head of dept was maybe not trustworthy.

Or if any would have been among the crowd of 150 giving him a standing O.
I would find it more comfortable if I heard more people admitting that they’ve only recently come to realise this behaviour is unacceptable. Some FSUers have, I remember one in particular realising their taste in films back in the 80s and 90s included examples of what we now know to be abuse.

I find that kind of self-reflection more powerful than the incessant throwing of stones at Prince Andrew for something that however dreadful, occurred in a different context. He will face his trial now and so did the infamous head of dept from my college, a few years ago.

Back in the day the 2 resigning tutors caused enough of a stir for their to be a piece in a news review chat show on ITV and I remember the journalist concluding “if it had been just 1, then fine give love a chance but with 6 you start to wonder”.
How deeply the public conscience has changed!

 

[Japanfan]

I didn’t know FSUers back in 2000 but I wonder if they would all have been as brave as the two staff who resigned. I wonder if they would have been among the 5 or so students timidly suggesting that their new head of dept was maybe not trustworthy.

Or if any would have been among the crowd of 150 giving him a standing O.
I would find it more comfortable if I heard more people admitting that they’ve only recently come to realise this behaviour is unacceptable. Some FSUers have, I remember one in particular realising their taste in films back in the 80s and 90s included examples of what we now know to be abuse.

I think I would be as brave as the two staff who resigned, TBH. I always was a non-conformist.

 

[millyskate]

Edit: it appears that my memory was faulty and the 6 cases the head of dept had admitted to concerned students between 16 and 18. He successfully argued consent at trial despite evidence he made the victims drink to achieve his goals, groomed them in various ways, threatened a victim who wanted to change teacher and even carried a bottle of whisky in his car stored ready for purpose.

The judgement was given in 2015 and caused only moderate mutterings. That’s how recently public opinion has changed.

 

[taf2002]

When I was 18 a man in his 40's propositioned me & I was so upset & disgusted that it led to a long conversation with my mother. I had always thought of her as being sheltered & naive but she told me about men in the real world (without dissing all men) that really opened my eyes & helped me protect myself against predators. So in college I think I would have been a dissenter of milly's example whether I made my views public or not. Idk if I would have spoken up. I wasn't as outspoken then that I am now.

 

[hoptoad]

I read in a couple of sources, which may or may not be reliable, that Giuffre was paid $15,000 by Epstein to have sex with the Prince.

Who's Virginia Giuffre and what are her allegations against Britain's Prince Andrew? - TittlePress

A New York judge ruled that a sexual lawsuit brought against the British royal by America’s Virginia Giuffre…

tittlepress.com

If Giuffre was paid for the sex, and accepted payment, was she then acting as a professional prostitute rather than a 17 year old who was being trafficked? The age of consent in NY was apparently 17, so if Giuffre accepted payment, and agreed to relations with Andrew, then Andrew would not be guilty of statutory or forcible rape. It appears Giuffre's grievances are primarily with Epstein and Maxwell. She is now going after Andrew, who has deep pockets, as she has already sued and settled with Epstein, and presumably Maxwell was covered in the financial settlement. The previous settlement was for $500K.

Andrew and his team need to settle this out of court. I would suggest offering 3-5 million, with a non-disclosure provision and half paid up front, the balance in escrow. If the settlement leaks, Giuffre loses the balance of the settlement. Giuffre would be paid a huge amount for three sexual encounters, the prince might have a hope of returning, over time, to good standing as a royal, and the royal family could move on. Everyone comes out of this messy situation better than they are today.

What oddly specific suggestions. Are you experienced in these types of negotiations?

 

[millyskate]

When I was 18 a man in his 40's propositioned me & I was so upset & disgusted that it led to a long conversation with my mother. I had always thought of her as being sheltered & naive but she told me about men in the real world (without dissing all men) that really opened my eyes & helped me protect myself against predators. So in college I think I would have been a dissenter of milly's example whether I made my views public or not. Idk if I would have spoken up. I wasn't as outspoken then that I am now.

I really can’t take the moral high ground here because while I despised what the head of dpt was doing and very critical of him my compassion didn’t extend to the victims and I was at the time of the opinion they were free will participants who had nothing to complain about.

I was a strong-headed teenager who sent a older admirers packing (like you I thought it disgusting) and thought the students sleeping with their teachers were conniving and manipulative, in it to gain favouritism and popularity. I must admit I used to be quite vocal about that too.

 

[once_upon]

Victims of sex trade are especially vulnerable to the gifts bestowed on them by those who are buying sex. Like victims of domestic violence, it is not easy to leave the situation.

If your income is based on having sex, and you were underage when the relationship was begun, leaving would be very difficult. Grooming is so subtle the victim often feels guilty thinking about leaving the relationship.

 

[b-man]

What oddly specific suggestions. Are you experienced in these types of negotiations?

If you are referring to the $15K allegedly paid to Guiffre, It's listed in the link I attached. I am experienced in reading.

 

[kwanfan1818]

When I was incollege in the '70's, it would have been a given among my contingent to have been outspoken and pounding the pavement with signs over this professor. And there were some non-tenured faculty who were right there for some.similar appointments. (It was a given for a vocal.set of tenured faculty.)

 

[hoptoad]

If you are referring to the $15K allegedly paid to Guiffre, It's listed in the link I attached. I am experienced in reading.

I was referring to your suggested settlement. I have no personal expertise in this area, though it seems that there is no area of human experience that someone on FSU doesn't know all about.

Andrew and his team need to settle this out of court. I would suggest offering 3-5 million, with a non-disclosure provision and half paid up front, the balance in escrow. If the settlement leaks, Giuffre loses the balance of the settlement. Giuffre would be paid a huge amount for three sexual encounters, the prince might have a hope of returning, over time, to good standing as a royal, and the royal family could move on. Everyone comes out of this messy situation better than they are today.

 

[b-man]

I was referring to your suggested settlement. I have no personal expertise in this area, though it seems that there is no area of human experience that someone on FSU doesn't know all about.

OK. More unnecessary innuendo. You are neither as cute or witty as you think. I negotiated contracts and settlements for the Government for 30+ years.

 

[hoptoad]

Eh, impulse posting as we await actual skating news.

I haven't really followed the Epstein or the various royals sagas closely and truly have no idea what a fair outcome is here, other than I'm skeptical about non-disclosure agreements in general. I'm sure the lawyers will figure something out and perhaps you are correct on the outlines.

 

[miffy]

Did I ever tell my story here about my dad telling Prince Andrew off?!

 

[Lemonade20]

Did I ever tell my story here about my dad telling Prince Andrew off?!

Share!!!

 

[miffy]

Share!!!

Haha ok

Prince Andrew was probably an older child/younger teenager and was skiing, accompanied by 2 adults who my dad thinks were a protection officer and a tutor. Neither were telling P.A. to stop being a pain so he was showing off and trying to push his way to the front of the long queue for the ski lifts. My dad took it upon himself to very firmly tell him to stop it and go to the back of the queue. He looked astonished but he did

(Btw my dad isn’t anti royals, he had lunch with Prince Charles once, as he took over my dad’s cabin when he left the navy, and he says Charles was a very nice man.)

 

[MacMadame]

The judgement was given in 2015 and caused only moderate mutterings. That’s how recently public opinion has changed.

Maybe in the circles you traveled in, but I went to college in the 70s and my experience was like @kwanfan1818. There was a professor who slept with his students and we were all disgusted by him not his victims and would have spoken up if the opportunity arose. Not only that but there was a professor who was dating a student and the college got rid of him and only let him back when the student was no longer a student and they were married. But his career was never the same after that.

ETA I forgot but the reason we were discussing the first case was that one of the students went to TPTB to report him and we were trying to figure out what else we could do.

 

[Oreo]

My bf/partner is a retired royal protection officer (see over on Harry/Meghan thread). He told me the only person he's ever wanted to punch out in his life was Prince Andrew. It was over some exceptionally bad behavior at Buckingham Palace to the point where Sarah Ferguson came out afterwards and apologized to the officers. He used to do things too like drive his Land Rover like a crazy in Windsor Great Park (up the Long Walk near the horse statue), and on one occasion he knocked over another protection officer who broke his leg. There are loads of stories.

Completely unrelated, I used to work in the event planning world, and the board of trustees (who were lovely people) from Lakefield School in Canada came out to where I live for meetings. Andrew was an honorary trustee (no longer!) because he once attended the school. During one of the trustees' dinners, while I was eating in the "servants quarters" with the security staff, US Dept of State reps, etc., their radios went off and the protection officer said something like "oh, bl---y h--l!" It seemed Andrew wanted to have a lie in the next morning. The schedule for the next day had to be readjusted, putting 63 people out of place (including me) to make it happen. When I told this story to my bf, his comment was: "The Queen would never have put people out like that."

 

[Winnipeg]

He sounds like a real pain.

 

[overedge]

(Btw my dad isn’t anti royals, he had lunch with Prince Charles once, as he took over my dad’s cabin when he left the navy, and he says Charles was a very nice man.)

I have a friend who used to be an executive in a charity that had Charles as its royal patron. This person has very progressive political views, so I just about fell off my chair when they told me that they really liked Charles The charity tied into a lot of Charles' interests, mostly around heritage preservation, and he was very supportive of their work - always willing to come to an event, linking them up with potential sources of funding, mentioning the charity at other speeches and appearances, and so on. And he was very pleasant and easy to deal with in their personal interactions.

Having said that.....the charitable world is fairly interlinked, and there were some royals who had reputations across the sector for making a fuss when asked to do anything, even when it was something they had a personal interest in, or something very minor, or something that wasn't unreasonable to ask of a royal patron. Let's just say that Andrew had a reputation as being one of those royals.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Thanks Oreo. JERK is the best word I can think of for him. Why didn't he lose his position long before now?
And my question is WHY? I get it, he is a jerk, with creepy behavior which he must like. My question is still why. Obviously, he is a trainwreck. Has he no respect for his mother and his and had none for his Father? Is allegiance and behavior proper behavior too much to expect? The guy had/has more opportunities than 99% of the country. And he takes it and smashes it all into his mother's face. That is just unconscionable. Couldn't this matter have been handled with $$ (I don't have a pound sign). And now there is news that he is running low on funds (poor baby)

He has been in a position to do a lot of good for a lot of people.

The poor queen. I feel so badly for her. She is a marvel! She doesn't need this shit! She has had a long journey that she has navigated almost perfectly. And then his siblings! Geesh.

Could someone put him in the Tower and "lose the key"?

Let's start a petition

 

[Vagabond]

Oreo's post prompted me to hunt for what I remember the Queen herself has rpeortedly said about Prince Andrew. I have put the salient bit in italics below.

“It Was Catastrophic”: Inside Prince Andrew’s Misguided Bid to Explain Away Epstein

In the wake of Jeffrey Epstein’s arrest and apparent suicide, Prince Andrew moved from the fringe of a swirling underage-sex scandal toward its white-hot center. His clumsy attempt to clear his name, in a no-holds-barred interview with BBC ‘Newsnight,’ set the stage for his royal demotion—and...

www.vanityfair.com

Andrew was a mischief-maker from the start. His nanny, Mabel Anderson, called him Baby Grumpling “because of his temper tantrums and obstinacy,” and palace staff referred to him as “that young imp,” Cawthorne writes. Ever the practical joker, Andrew gave the queen mother a whoopee cushion; punched his father, Prince Philip, in the eye while the two were sparring; sprinkled itching powder onto the bed of his mother, the queen; and climbed up on the palace roof to twist the television antennae so Her Majesty couldn’t watch her favorite shows. He hid “the knives and forks when a footman was laying the table” and tied “sentries’ shoelaces together, knowing they wouldn’t be able to move, literally or chastise him,” Cawthorne added. “Even the Queen sighed, ‘He’s not always a little ray of sunshine around the home.’”

To his friends, Andrew is “funny, incredibly humorous, tells wonderful stories, delightful,” says one. “He’s royal. Impressive.” Others are less taken by him. “In the end, Andrew’s fatal calling card is pomposity, arrogance, and stupidity,” says one royal chronicler. “He’s very bad at taking good advice, but very good at taking bad advice.”

Dude sounds like a right royal schmendrick, if you ask me.

 

[overedge]

Emily Maitlis, who did the famous TV interview with Andrew, has some interesting insights on Andrew. I remember she also wrote a piece a few weeks after the interview aired about how Andrew showed her and her crew around part of the Palace, and was genuinely nice in telling them about the paintings, art, history, etc.

Prince Andrew: Emily Maitlis says duke's interview answers are critical to sex assault case

The BBC Newsnight presenter says details of the 2019 interview are being pored over by both sides.

www.bbc.com

 

[maatTheViking]

I'm pretty sure there are lots of naughty children, while terrors as they grow up, manages to grow up to NOT be sexual predators... I'm not sure how what he did as a child is relevant for this case.

 

[Lemonade20]

I'm pretty sure there are lots of naughty children, while terrors as they grow up, manages to grow up to NOT be sexual predators... I'm not sure how what he did as a child is relevant for this case.

How he was as a child is very telling because it creates who he is today. He is apparently used to getting his own way, every single time. He doesn't see anything wrong with his actions and thinks the world revolves around him. So yes, his childhood is a factor.

 

[Vagabond]

I'm pretty sure there are lots of naughty children, while terrors as they grow up, manages to grow up to NOT be sexual predators... I'm not sure how what he did as a child is relevant for this case.

If the case goes to trial, his likability now will be a factor in how the jury views the case. All indications are that he is no more or less likable than he was when he was a boy and that he is, in fact, still very immature. (Go back and read the bit about his teddy bear collection upthread.)

 

[attyfan]

I doubt that Andrew's childhood will come into evidence. The interview, however, probably will be used .... and, IMO, after hearing some of his statements, jurors won't believe his denials when he claims he did not know that the plaintiff was a victim of sex trafficking.

 

[b-man]

Doing research, I came upon interesting disclosures from Carolyn Andriano, now 35. At age 14, she was recruited into the Epstein/Maxwell fold. I immediately was disgusted at Maxwell, preying on a 14 year old. However, reading further, Andriano wasn't recruited by Maxwell, but by Giuffre!!!

Remember, Giuffre's suit against Andrew is for assault, and infliction of emotional distress. Andriano tells a different story. While Giuffre was in London with Epstein and Maxwell, she messaged Andriano who was in Florida, That she had dinner with the Prince/ Andriano asked if Giuffre was .able to visit the palace. Giuffre replies, I got to sleep with him, and repeated, bragging, that she got to sleep with the Prince. If Andriano repeats this in a Giuffre vs Andrew, trial, Giuffre's claims of assault and emotional distress would be demolished. However, it would also confirm that, contrary to Andrew's assertions, he did have sex with Giuffre, a 17 year old. So Andrew has painted himself in a corner, he can win. the case, only by admission of relations with a 17 year old. I still expect an out of court settlement.

Andrew 'may call Maxwell victim for DEFENCE to prove accuser wasn't a victim'

PRINCE Andrew’s lawyers may call one of Ghislaine Maxwell’s victims in a bid to fight the rape lawsuit he’s facing. Accuser Virginia Roberts Giuffre said she is unlikely to accept…

www.the-sun.com

 

[Vagabond]

Are they that far along in the proceedings? Anyway, I am done here, for now. Though I reserve the right to return if things get interesting.

Doing research

I thought you were done here. But, since you have been doing research, I trust that you have already answered your question.

 

[b-man]

I thought you were done here. But, since you have been doing research, I trust that you have already answered your question.

The Sun article was news to .me, and probably others. Your analysis?