Pairs Discussion Thread 2019-20: “Two skating as one”

Japanfan

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J/C may do a lot of interesting things but most of the time it looks messy or unfinished. S/H and T/M are far more clean in the positions they strike whether its in their lifts or other movements across the ice
I think that is true, although I've not thought of it before. J/C are an exciting pair, but their skating is a bit lacking in refinement IMO - even though Vanessa is always costumed to perfection.

And while J is quite sassy on the ice, no pairs lady at present has sass equal to the Sass of Sui.
 
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vanillashake

Banned Member
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270
I am doubtful that the strategy will work. Not competing could cause them to lose momentum. Some skaters can come back after being away for awhile, such as S/Z and V/M, both of whom won Olympic Gold after their return. But both teams were already highly decorated and had proven themselves as contenders for the top spot on the podium -S/Z were able to skate first in the SP field at the 2010 Olympics and hold that position to the end of the competition.

I don't think J/C have that sort of momentum. I think they were just building towards it last season. If last season was actually their peak, then they may have peaked at the wrong time, in the middle of the Olympic cycle.

Also, competing keeps a skater/team on the judges' radar. S/Z and V/M didn't need to do that, but IMO, J/C do.

I have long been a fan of J/C and would love to see them get an Olympic medal. Given that S/H are the favorites for gold at this point in time, the primary battle could be for gold and silver.
The only problem is skating is so largely reputation and momentum based. Everyone who follows the sport knows that. S/Z and V/M had already built up their ultimate legend of legends status, otherwise returning would have been a tougher road even if they still had the same level of skating. Same for Gordeeva & Grinkov, Miskutienok & Dmitriev, and Torvill & Dean in their comebacks (and only 1 of the 3 managed gold even then). And even theirs would have gone awry if they had one bad competition at the right time and did not kickstart the re-momentum perfectly.

Bold move by J/C for sure and brave on their part. I wish them the best.
 

SleepyShawn

Member
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42
It’s definitely possible for J/C to come back strong after missing some competitions. Look at where Sui and Han ended up after missing Worlds last year and so many GP series in their career (of course, this is a rare example, even across all 4 disciplines, but it’s possible). It’s certainly a big challenge for sure but I’m not going to be too pessimistic about it. Definitely disappointed as I was really looking forward to two of them going head to head at NHK this year.
 

whiteskates

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401
James/Cipres are on their way out, I think. They have been around for a long time and there is a limit to how long you can last in a sport that requires as much as figure skating does. Although I have sometimes felt there is something missing in their skating, a bit of sloppiness on the elements and presentation etc. I have loved watching them because they look so good and have had good programmes. Will miss them when they leave.
 

Japanfan

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21,761
It’s definitely possible for J/C to come back strong after missing some competitions. Look at where Sui and Han ended up after missing Worlds last year and so many GP series in their career (of course, this is a rare example, even across all 4 disciplines, but it’s possible).
But Sui/Han had one World Champion title behind them when they came back, had twice earned silver at Worlds, and had five 4CCs titles. They had already made their mark. The same cannot be said of J/C, no offense intended - I very much like this pair. The judges will remember that Vanessa got rattled after the collision at last year's world. Yes, she's human, but skaters distinguish themselves when they are able to rise above adversity. There are so many examples of that (skaters performing with injuries, Eric Radford finishing a program with a bloody nose, skaters performing after rattling circumstances, such as a sudden change in skate order, or the man on the ice potentially causing Michelle Kwan to lose her focus.)

It may also be that J/C felt particularly pressured at last year's worlds having had such a stellar stellar. And perhaps that pressure contributed to J getting rattled.

I don't think J/C are quite on Sui/Han's level yet. That's why I'm disappointed that they won't compete on the GP or at Worlds. I think they need to stay in competitive form in order to grow. S/H and T/M will certainly be aiming to stay in contention for the top spot through to 20/20. And while J/C sit out a season, there are other pairs who may move up the ranks. A lot can change in a year, and J/C may find themselves further back in the pack than they hoped to be when they return.
 

SleepyShawn

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42
But Sui/Han had one World Champion title behind them when they came back, had twice earned silver at Worlds, and had five 4CCs titles. They had already made their mark. The same cannot be said of J/C, no offense intended - I very much like this pair. The judges will remember that Vanessa got rattled after the collision at last year's world. Yes, she's human, but skaters distinguish themselves when they are able to rise above adversity. There are so many examples of that (skaters performing with injuries, Eric Radford finishing a program with a bloody nose, skaters performing after rattling circumstances, such as a sudden change in skate order, or the man on the ice potentially causing Michelle Kwan to lose her focus.)

It may also be that J/C felt particularly pressured at last year's worlds having had such a stellar stellar. And perhaps that pressure contributed to J getting rattled.

I don't think J/C are quite on Sui/Han's level yet. That's why I'm disappointed that they won't compete on the GP or at Worlds. I think they need to stay in competitive form in order to grow. S/H and T/M will certainly be aiming to stay in contention for the top spot through to 20/20. And while J/C sit out a season, there are other pairs who may move up the ranks. A lot can change in a year, and J/C may find themselves further back in the pack than they hoped to be when they return.
That’s true, but I’ll try to stay positive and hopeful for them even the chances are small ☺

And I do agree on rising above adversity is an important quality for great skaters to distinguish themselves. Following your examples, I can also think of other situations such as Evgenia Tarasova got cut on the shin by her partner right before competitions at 2017 Worlds and had to get stitches but still managed to skate two clean programs and grabbed the bronze. Or S/Z threw down their legendary Turandot with her skating with a dead wood leg after receiving numbing agents for her pain from accidents in OP. Even Matteo Guarise (who seemed to receive the bigger impact on the collision with Vanessa) sort of pulled through the short program. So I’m assuming maybe it could be more of a mental game for J/C at that moment, but I’m confident they’ll work on that and hopefully come back stronger in the future.
 

vanillashake

Banned Member
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But Sui/Han had one World Champion title behind them when they came back, had twice earned silver at Worlds, and had five 4CCs titles. They had already made their mark. The same cannot be said of J/C, no offense intended - I very much like this pair. The judges will remember that Vanessa got rattled after the collision at last year's world. Yes, she's human, but skaters distinguish themselves when they are able to rise above adversity. There are so many examples of that (skaters performing with injuries, Eric Radford finishing a program with a bloody nose, skaters performing after rattling circumstances, such as a sudden change in skate order, or the man on the ice potentially causing Michelle Kwan to lose her focus.)

It may also be that J/C felt particularly pressured at last year's worlds having had such a stellar stellar. And perhaps that pressure contributed to J getting rattled.

I don't think J/C are quite on Sui/Han's level yet. That's why I'm disappointed that they won't compete on the GP or at Worlds. I think they need to stay in competitive form in order to grow. S/H and T/M will certainly be aiming to stay in contention for the top spot through to 20/20. And while J/C sit out a season, there are other pairs who may move up the ranks. A lot can change in a year, and J/C may find themselves further back in the pack than they hoped to be when they return.
I remember when Stolbova & Klimov took time off and skipped worlds to add new elements though. It briefly worked out for them, they won the GPF looking better than ever in 2016.
 

Mad for Skating

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I have to say, I don’t think skipping Worlds is a great idea for James/Cipres. Last year, their strength as a pair came from 1. fresh, unique programs, 2. momentum, and 3. staying on their feet when other pairs didn’t. If they take part of the season off, they’ll be losing the momentum, and I’m not sure if they will be in the incredible form they were in last year if they’re only doing a few competitions. I hope they prove me wrong - other skaters have taken time off and gotten better - but I’m doubtful.
To be clear, I do enjoy their skating and I wish them the best.
 

s_parks

Active Member
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136
I (and the judges at Worlds) disagree. Sui has really great positions, and for such a small guy, Han lifts her pretty effortlessly with good ice coverage.
I agree. I'm rather partial to Han's posture, ice coverage, and flow in the lifts than Cipres or even Morozov.
 

Mad for Skating

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I personally think all three teams have great lifts. Sui/Han's are impressive because they're so close in size, James/Cipres' are impressive because they have creative positions, and Tarasova/Morozov's are impressive because she has great extension and position. They're all different, but amazing.
 

ManiDani

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I'm rather partial to Han's posture, ice coverage, and flow in the lifts than Cipres or even Morozov.
I think Han is the best lifter in the current field. The most impressive thing about Han is that he can match his footwork to the music while lifting Sui. Usually, I focus on the lady during the lifts, but with them it is obvious that both partners are doing work to sell the lift.

Tarasava/Morozov's are impressive because she has great extension and position
I also agree with this. Evgenia always does such a great job selling their lifts. I think she has the best positions in the ladies field outside of Lubov , and she always looks like an angel in the air.
 

Amy L

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T/M had a few mistakes. Slightly two-footed throw, spins were on and off unison, then they finished after their music.

I still thought C/L-D was a little bit overscored, but they were pretty clean.
 

aka_gerbil

Rooting for the Underdogs
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T/M had a few mistakes. Slightly two-footed throw, spins were on and off unison, then they finished after their music.

I still thought C/L-D was a little bit overscored, but they were pretty clean.
All I’m going to say is this is not about clean vs minor mistakes—that would assume otherwise equal ability. T/M and C/L so not have otherwise equal ability. Some major homecoming going down.
 

AngieNikodinovLove

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^^^ have you seen the performances? I just watched them both. T&M had mistakes on the throw and a big one on the side by side spin. And then finish their program about 5 seconds after the music.

This is the Required element program, not the interpretive.

I did not see any mistake at all with Ashley and Tim. And they appear to be skating as fast as T&M.

Oh and their jump was a lot more difficult than T&M

Oh and their throw was a lot more difficult than T&M

Oh and their SBS spin was a lot more difficult than T&M

Saying they had a higher score because of skating on home ice is a bit of an insult. I don't think you've seen the performances
 
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aka_gerbil

Rooting for the Underdogs
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I have seen them. Just don’t agree with the results, and I’d still have t/m in first with a bigger margin on components than what they have.

T/M’s skate has nothing to do with C/L’s components being too high. This is one of those situations where people look at the score of the team that had errors but they don’t question if the other score was too high.... and it was

Based on comments I’ve seen elsewhere, I’m not the only one who feels this way about the results.
 

AngieNikodinovLove

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^^^ we can just agree to disagree.

C&L have major improvements and major upgrades in the last 6 months, and the help from Mozer is so evident. So, yes, when you improve then your PCS reflect it. As far as T&M there were no major improvements in their PCS so I would expect their PCS to be as high as it always was, not higher. But I would expect C&L PCS to be higher from what I just saw, and it looks like all the judges that were present agreed.

Ive been around wayyyy longer than youtube and social media comments so I see through all the hate.
 

alchemy void

#missionNHK
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19,649
C/L totally slayed. Best they've ever skated, total commitment to the DRAMA. They looked in peak form and even seemed to skate with more power, too, but that could be my imagination.

T/M have improved quite a bit, but this was significantly messier than the Russian test skates a few weeks back. This was a good skate for early in the season, but C/L deservedly came out on top tonight.
 

AngieNikodinovLove

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OH MY!!!!!!!

World class Cain-Gribble & LeDuc!!!!!

Won the sp and the free.. and won the free by 10 points over T&M and 13+ points over P&J!

IM JUST SOOOOO Thrilled for them... SO HAPPY FOR THEM!!!!!

:cheer2: :cheer2:

Wonder how their scores will rise without that fall.

And for L&M how rare is a 3S - 1Eu - 3S? Dont think Ive seen that combo before.........
 
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AxelAnnie

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11,355
T/M had a few mistakes. Slightly two-footed throw, spins were on and off unison, then they finished after their music.

I still thought C/L-D was a little bit overscored, but they were pretty clean.
I did not like this program at all. Surprised they scored such a high number
 

oleada

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41,086
Gribbles deserved the win without a doubt, but the LP score was kind of a joke. It was the best skate of the night but it wasn’t a good skate, as they had some pretty major errors. 129 for that was high, especially when you consider that’s higher than their PB and it’s definitely not their best skate. They’ve definitely improved a lot though.

I don’t think it’s necessarily reflective of how the season will turn out in the long run.

More importantly, I hope that this is the last time SLC has a pairs event. The altitude + early season is brutal and frankly, completely frightening to watch. I’ve never seen Jin miss a lift until today. I really hope Canada gets the pairs Challenger next year.
 

tylersf

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— Aliona Savchenko and Meagan Duhamel are both pregnant!

Congratulations to the happy couple! I wish them both success in raising their child together!
 

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