Pairs Discussion Thread 2017-18--"Two Skating as One"

'Douchey swagger' in figure skating commentary doesn't seem like a good thing either.

I see no 'douchey' and no 'swagger' in the way Morgan skates. Mayhap the 'douchey' is what exists in certain people's minds and perceptions.
 
TSL discusses Duhamel/Radford and James/Cipres at Autumn Classic, with a few references to some past U.S. pairs teams interspersed. Discussion of J/C is from 18:14 - 22:27. And a discussion of D/R immediately precedes JC review (as usual Dave and co-host go off on tangents here and there). Discussion of Seguin/Bilodeau follows J/C.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM7CGQ_RuAo

Cross-posting my comments from TSL thread:
Jonathan really likes James/Cipres and he makes a good case for why, while being realistic on what their weaknesses are. It was a fair and generally very positive assessment by both Dave and Jonathan of D/R and especially of J/C. However, I also feel J/C deserve for fans and critics to acknowledge them for their technical strengths, and their enviable connection (rather than the continual knee-jerk harping on them not being the best at this or that). J/C have improved a great deal and they have found programs and a coaching environment which has enhanced their strengths and brought out what makes them compelling as a team. They are skating more as one now, rather than as two singles skaters. And that's a process that happens not just on the ice, but through the hard work of learning how to trust each other. I find J/C's new programs very engaging and affecting to watch. I love their new moves, positions and lift variations. And btw, I think J/C will be getting new costumes as the season progresses. It looks to me like Vanessa is wearing a practice outfit and Morgan is wearing regular clothes, likely on purpose this early in the season.

ETA:
So far, my favorite pairs programs from those I've seen so far this season are James/Cipres (both programs), Seguin/Bilodeau (both programs), and Peng/Jin (both programs). I also like Sav/Mas' programs, but they will need to work out some kinks. Luba/Dylan have some good programs (they seem very inspired by J/C's style and moves ;) ). I enjoy Marissa/Merv's new fp, and Kirsten/Michael's fp from last season is looking very improved and good on them.

I think Sui/Han will be working it, but I'm not particularly enthralled by their new programs. As usual, Yu/Zhang are great with the technical tricks, but they just aren't feeling it as a cohesive team so I'm not moved by anything they do really. I feel a bit sad for Yu. OTOH, Peng is full of life with her switched partner, Jin. Lori Nichol has created some programs that really spark magic for Peng/Jin. Stolbova/Klimov don't seem very inspired but they are trying. It just seems that they haven't recovered with full strength from injury layoffs. I enjoyed their programs more from last season, even though they were inconsistent technically. And I really enjoy Denney/Frazier's new programs, but I feel sad for them having to struggle to get back to form after Haven's knee surgery and rehab.
 
Just a note on my favorite discipline...pairs...

There sure was a lot of mute worthy music from the teams so far. (While in dance Im in love with so many choices).

C&T.... ok with so many subpar music choices these days where did this team find that? Their free music was to me such a downer... Made Eleanor Rigby look energetic and motivating. Depressing with a capital D!

I have yet to ever personally like any music they have ever done, SP or Free. sigh

Then Seguin & Bilodeau ... such downer music...... depressing. sigh # 2

I remember some people said they were loving the free music for Stolbova & Klimov but its the most popular and overused edit of Carmen. Period. So for me that was difficult too. sigh #3

As much as I can't stomach Christina by the time T&M got around I was tapping my foot to a song that normally I would mute as well. LOL

OK, lemme pull myself together here. lol
 
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angi said:
@AngieNikodinovLove I added both C/T and S/B FS music to my playlist since I loved it so much so it really is a question of personal taste* :)

*Not in T/M case where their FS music is just a big fat no.
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LOL, you're right... that music aint going anywhere near my playlist, unless I need to be medicated. lol, sorry, i just couldn't resist.

And BTW when did Bilodeau morph into Scott?? Im not a fan either. sigh #4 lol
 
angi said:
@AngieNikodinovLove I added both C/T and S/B FS music to my playlist since I loved it so much so it really is a question of personal taste* :)

*Not in T/M case where their FS music is just a big fat no.
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Yup. S/B’s music is right up my indie-rock-loving alley. I know a lot of people seem to find their LP dreary or boring, but I think it’s beautiful and applaud them for going way into left field to find music.
 
AngieNikodinovLove said:
I remember some people said they were loving the free music for Stolbova & Klimov but its the most popular and overused edit of Carmen. Period. So for me that was difficult too. sigh #3
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Yes, it is. And still I love it more than T/M's or D/R's free programs this season. They have skated to modern pieces, to "put a spell on you", to lyrical classic piece and even to both Russian and French version of Notre Dame de Paris in last few seasons. I'm really glad that Ksenia and Fedor took something really powerful and strong for their Olympics LP.
And Stolbova is a perfect Carmen. Period.

I want to see them winning in Korea. The only problem is that I want S/H and Aliona to win that OGM as well :drama:
 
Sigh. *If* Bruno can’t get citizenship, all that stands between T/M’s Candyman FS and Olympic gold medal is S/H’s Turandot.
I’d be ok if T/M won using some overworked classic where just their skating shines through. But this FS cannot be what wins Olympic gold. Having both S/M and S/H there will hopefully that from happening.
 
T/M are great technically and in skating skills, but they shouldn't be so highly rewarded for shit programs, no matter if they skate clean. Did T/M change their sp? I don't remember that sp at Russian test skates. Maybe they changed their sp music - Rachmaninoff works fairly well for them, even though they still need to spark a better connection on the ice. Unfortunately, their Candyman fp needs to go back to candy land... :rolleyes:

The judges prove that they give high PCS based on tech proficiency @clairecloutier! Thanks for telling it like it is re T/M's fp music choice in your Rostelecom Cup review. Might judges at a different venue come to their senses?! They need to take off big time for T/M's choreo and interpretation. And not so high on PE either because their new fp and their lack of connection on the ice just doesn't work no matter how cleanly they skate.
 
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It was pretty obvious from the start of this season when we saw the Chinese pairs test skates that Peng/Jin had the best programs of the top three Chinese pairs. Partnering with Jin has truly brought out Peng's personality and comfort level. Apparently Lori Nichol is also charmed by these two, and she's given them wonderful choreo.

Yu/Zhang have great tech elements usually, but there continues to be a huge disconnect between their personalities, and it shows on the ice. Lori tried to work effectively with that 'distance' dynamic last season, but it's wearing thin this season. I feel sorry for Yu, as she watches her former partner Jin, melding so well with Peng. Sui/Han continue to be stellar with their connection and tech elements, but I didn't care that much for either of their programs this season. I also wonder whether Sui has been at all hampered in her training since Worlds as she continues to strengthen her foot that had surgery. I expect Sui/Han to continue as the top Chinese pair, but I don't see any reason why Peng/Jin can't begin to challenge their dominance. At the least, P/J will hopefully be making a statement as an elite international pair team to be reckoned with.

Sylvia said:
Pairs group 2 - Peng/Jin (SP), Savchenko/Massot (SP), Zabiiako/Enbert (SP), Denney/Frazier (FS) run throughs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVLN6fZsHIg
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Interesting that D/F decided to perform their jumps, throws, choreographic moves, and ending lift but not spins, footwork or death spiral in a fp run-through. Most teams performed sp choreo moves, footwork, spins and death spirals (without lifts, jumps or throws).

Wow, SC is a tough, tough competition, with the top two Canadian teams, the on fire French team J/C, the stellar German team S/M, the burgeoning Chinese pair P/J, the bland but 'well-liked by judges' Russians Z/E, the very gifted but star-crossed U.S. pair D/F. And a new Canadian pair team, K/D. Placements here are going to seem unfair for a number of teams, no matter how well they skate.

Based on rep or lack thereof, I can see K/D rated in the bottom tier with unfortunately D/F not being given much notice either, especially if they have any problems with the jumps. If all the other teams skate well, I'd imagine that D/R and S/M will battle for top position with J/C, I/M and P/J in close contention for the podium. I don't like the skating of Z/E, but they are nice looking and generally have good skating skills and are well-liked by the judges, so they could be spoilers for the podium as well, but I don't think they should be that highly rated because they lack personality on the ice.
 
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I'm catching up with SC pairs sp. Kudos to Haven and Brandon for a lovely sp! The judges could have been much more generous because that was a wonderful skate for D/F, and they were clearly better overall than the Canadians K/D and the Chinese P/J who preceded them. As much as I enjoy P/J, I guess I was premature in thinking they might challenge Sui/Han. P/J would need to skate much more consistently. They had a few problems in their execution in sp at SC

Despite Luba's mistake on the sbs jump element, I thought I/M deserved higher components than Z/E, and not such a huge markdown on their tech score, which is largely why they are so far behind Z/E. To be honest, as well as D/F skated, they should be around 63 to 64, with I/M more around 65 to 66 or so on the basis of components, and Z/E should be around 67 to 68. Oh well, judging is not easy and it's also imperfect. Although Z/E are looking much better as a pair team, they still have a lot to work on. Both I/M and Z/E seem to be inspired by the success of J/C's style.

Kudos to J/C -- they were wonderful. I like their costumes, and I knew they would have costumes once the GP began. The blue looks good on Vanessa. LOL, everyone was questioning J/C's black warm-up attire during the senior Bs.

I really think Savchenko/Massot were overscored for what they did. It was not a great skate. Wow. And come on, that was not D/R's best skate. They had a mistake on the sbs jumps and just were not better than J/C overall. S/M should not be higher than maybe 74+ and D/R should be behind J/C. Let's be real. A case could be made that J/C should be in first place. But apparently figure skating establishment just can't allow that to happen, despite J/C's improvements and very exciting breakthrough that began last season. Added to that, it's quite clear that other teams are copying J/C's style and moves, or at least trying to.
 
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aftershocks said:
I really think Savchenko/Massot were overscored for what they did. It was not a great skate. Wow. And come on, that was not D/R's best skate. They had a mistake on the sbs jumps and just were not better than J/C overall. S/M should not be higher than maybe 74+ and D/R should be behind J/C. Let's be real. A case could be made that J/C should be in first place. But apparently figure skating establishment just can't allow that to happen, despite J/C's improvements and very exciting breakthrough that began last season. Added to that, it's quite clear that other teams are copying J/C's style and moves, or at least trying to.
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At first I thought the same. But today you need the protocols to have a better overview. S/M base value was over 4 points higher than the rest of the field. Their high GOE on five elements were well deserved.

Of course you could criticize that J/C' PCS were too low. But technically it was not the best yesterday. They missed some levels and the quality of all elements ecxept the jump disappointed me a bit.

D/R's PCS and GOE were too high in my book. But this GP is in Canada.
 
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^^ I totally disagree that there was not quality in J/C's 3-twist, and their boffo transition into it. Their in-betweens were very good, and their lift and death spiral were also excellent. The only thing you can really say is that Vanessa was slightly forward on her throw landing, but it was well landed with decent flow, so that's a huge nitpick. The judges tend to use levels and GOE I think to manipulate placements.

The constant 'refinement' refrain is overused. J/C's best always have to be that much better. To me 'refinement' is just a code word. Not that you used it, but it is and has been constantly bandied about in reference to J/C and some other skaters. What it really amounts to is a way to describe the fact there's something about them that's not liked or accepted. They have a unique style and they've worked very hard to get to where they are at. They should be rewarded for the contributions that they are bringing to the sport.

The fact that S/M did not land their throw 3-axel and they were a bit rough (especially Bruno) on some of their other elements, means to me that their base value advantage should not be such an advantage. It would be different if they'd actually performed better and with more confidence. They did not.

While I enjoy watching Meagan and Eric, and they've worked hard over the years to match each other as well as they do, for me they seemed to peak at Worlds 2016. They had a lot of problems last season and lost some momentum. Of course Eric's injury also hurt them at 2017 Worlds. At SC sp, they botched their sbs 3-lutz money jump (Eric double-footed the landing and Meagan doubled instead of tripled). Of course, they lost points there and it was downgraded, but if they were not a top-rated, well-regarded team, they would have paid a heavier price in the scoring. That's really the way it goes in figure skating. We can make all the arguments and justifications we please, and so can the judges with the protocols. It's just that the judges always have final say on the placements.
 
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aftershocks said:
^^ I totally disagree that there was not quality in J/C's 3-twist, and their boffo transition into it. Their in-betweens were very good, and their lift and death spiral were also excellent. The only thing you can really say is that Vanessa was slightly forward on her throw landing, but it was well landed with good flow, so that's a huge nitpick. The judges tend to use levels and GOE I think to manipulate placements.
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The twist transition is super ( same with S/M). But the height was not good this time. They touched each other with their upper body parts. Just level 2.

Vanessa complained about their spin during the Kiss and Cry. It was very slow. There is room for improvements for the French. But they missed a top performance yesterday.
 
Quadjump said:
The twist transition is super ( same with S/M). But the height was not good this time. They touched each other with their upper body parts. Just level 2.

Vanessa complained about their spin during the Kiss and Cry. It was very slow. There is room for improvements for the French. But they missed a top performance yesterday.
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Ha ha, there's always room for improvement for every team. Athletes are their own worst critics and never satisfied, which is what helps to make them champions. Like most competitive athletes who have heart and toughness, Vanessa is always realistic and hard on herself, as well as being a gracious sportsperson. I love her beautiful smile.

Methinks the improvements everyone keeps saying J/C need are because they are close to overtaking a lot of top teams. J/C had two of the best programs last season, and the same goes for this season. J/C and their team of coaches and choreographer are setting a standard and other teams are taking notice and being inspired. But yeah, it's very important to nitpick. J/C's 3-twist was very good. It was a great catch in the air. The camera angle does not allow for you to really see whether there was actually any minor upper body touching. It's not worth them being nitpicked for it, but of course since they are J/C, a hot team on the rise, we really must carefully scrutinize and nitpick. LOL! Sure it wasn't perhaps their best 3-twist ever, but it was not bad either.

To be honest, 'top performances' were missed moreso by S/M and D/R. For real.
 
aftershocks said:
Ha ha, there's always room for improvement for every team. Athletes are their own worst critics and never satisfied, which is what helps to make them champions. Like most competitive athletes who have heart and toughness, Vanessa is always realistic and hard on herself, as well as being a gracious sportsperson. I love her beautiful smile.

Methinks the improvements everyone keeps saying J/C need are because they are close to overtaking a lot of top teams. J/C had two of the best programs last season, and the same goes for this season. J/C and their team of coaches and choreographer are setting a standard and other teams are taking notice and being inspired. But yeah, it's very important to nitpick. J/C's 3-twist was very good. It was a great catch in the air. The camera angle does not allow for you to really see whether there was actually any minor upper body touching. It's not worth them being nitpicked for it, but of course since they are J/C, a hot team on the rise, we really must carefully scrutinize and nitpick. LOL! Sure it wasn't perhaps their best 3-twist ever, but it was not bad either.

To be honest, 'top performances' were missed moreso by S/M and D/R. For real.
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The french and Russian judge gave J/C +2 for this twist and they have given +2 for the twist of S/M. I would say this is not fair, because the twist of S/M has been much better than the twist of J/C as all the other judges have seen it as well. So I don't see a technical overscoring of S/M. In PCS I would see J/C right behind S/M.
 
Sabine-Yuna said:
The french and Russian judge gave J/C +2 for this twist and they have given +2 for the twist of S/M. I would say this is not fair, because the twist of S/M has been much better than the twist of J/C as all the other judges have seen it as well. So I don't see a technical overscoring of S/M. In PCS I would see J/C right behind S/M.
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Hey cool. S/M's throw 3-twist is quite superb and extremely high. There's no accounting for what some judges do and we should know that by now, right! :lol: Like I said already, we can all make whatever case we wish to make, just as the judges do with their protocols/scoring. The difference is ISU judges have the final say. And we can debate from here to eternity, as we will. That's figure skating.
 
I absolutely love S/M SP, I think it's complex and intricate with so much dance qualities to it (all the hands details) and endless transitions.
Regarding the scores - S/M might have had a dodgy landing on the 3Ath but that's still worth almost like a relatively well executed 3LzTh as far as I can see and when they land it better that's almost 8 points on BV alone. S/M have an amazing twist (best in the field with only T/M coming close imo), that one arm lift with Bruno's other arm behind his back is unbelievable with a great exit and are the strongest in PCS so the scoring is fair imo.
If anything I think J/C should be second over D/R.
 
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I thought S/M's programs last season were much better. And it's a matter of taste to claim S/M are 'strongest in PCS.' To be honest, while Bruno has improved a lot to catch up with Aliona, they really have yet to hit everything on all cylinders, and even despite the intricacy and sharpness of the moves in this sp, I think it kind of shows up some of their weaknesses as a pair. And I actually have been a fan of S/M. They just need to start landing that throw 3-axel and skating clean, which granted is not that easy.

D/R are definitely a bit smoother and even more matching each other, and it's a lovely short program for them. So the move to get some input from John Kerr paid off in that way. But I don't know. Maybe it's just a bit of shaken confidence that they are not putting things together consistently. We'll see what happens in the fp. I'm not averse to seeing a podium as is, or with D/R on top if they lay their program down. There could be some movement among all placements. We never know for sure in figure skating, even when things sometimes seem to be a 'done deal.' ;)

Indeed, this is a tough pairs field at Skate Canada.
 
I don't think PCS are a matter of taste. Bruno is not at Aljona's level yet but let's be honest here - who is? I think he is up there with the other top male pairs skaters - Radford, Morozov, Klimov and Cipres. Only Han can arguably be regarded as better than him imo. And let's not forget that they are not recycling any program, when arguably I think their last season FS could have been used again. They take risks and push themselves and kudos to them for that.
I think what S/M need is time to build - they have very difficult programs, arguably the most difficult this season, and last season it wasn't until Euros where they really started nailing it, both technically and artistically so I think with time their programs will become stronger and stronger. But what I truly love about their programs is that when I watch them I just feel like they are olympics worthy (whatever that means).
But I agree with the top 3 at Skate Canada the podium can be in any order after the free, such an amazing pairs competition we have there :)
 
aftershocks said:
^^ I totally disagree that there was not quality in J/C's 3-twist, and their boffo transition into it. Their in-betweens were very good, and their lift and death spiral were also excellent. The only thing you can really say is that Vanessa was slightly forward on her throw landing, but it was well landed with decent flow, so that's a huge nitpick. The judges tend to use levels and GOE I think to manipulate placements.

The constant 'refinement' refrain is overused. J/C's best always have to be that much better. To me 'refinement' is just a code word. Not that you used it, but it is and has been constantly bandied about in reference to J/C and some other skaters. What it really amounts to is a way to describe the fact there's something about them that's not liked or accepted. They have a unique style and they've worked very hard to get to where they are at. They should be rewarded for the contributions that they are bringing to the sport.

The fact that S/M did not land their throw 3-axel and they were a bit rough (especially Bruno) on some of their other elements, means to me that their base value advantage should not be such an advantage. It would be different if they'd actually performed better and with more confidence. They did not.

While I enjoy watching Meagan and Eric, and they've worked hard over the years to match each other as well as they do, for me they seemed to peak at Worlds 2016. They had a lot of problems last season and lost some momentum. Of course Eric's injury also hurt them at 2017 Worlds. At SC sp, they botched their sbs 3-lutz money jump (Eric double-footed the landing and Meagan doubled instead of tripled). Of course, they lost points there and it was downgraded, but if they were not a top-rated, well-regarded team, they would have paid a heavier price in the scoring. That's really the way it goes in figure skating. We can make all the arguments and justifications we please, and so can the judges with the protocols. It's just that the judges always have final say on the placements.
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I have a question. Have Bruno's skating skills improved now to the point that they deserve skating skill marks in the 9's ?
 
^^ Six of one, half-dozen of another, eh! Judges' PCS scores are always questionable across the board usually. I'm not sure about Bruno. Maybe the judges are giving Aliona all the credit and lending a blind eye to Mr. Massot. :lol:

angi said:
I don't think PCS are a matter of taste. Bruno is not at Aljona's level yet but let's be honest here - who is? I think he is up there with the other top male pairs skaters - Radford, Morozov, Klimov and Cipres. Only Han can arguably be regarded as better than him imo.
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Eh, it's subjective to a degree. Aliona is definitely boss. I've loved her from 'hello!' And I give Bruno a lot of credit for getting up to speed with Ms. Boss fairly quickly. Still, they have areas to work on. Champions can never rest on their laurels. Certainly Aliona/Robin/Ingo were notorious for never resting. They made some missteps after their Pina season, but they were always unique, different and constantly seeking to push the envelope. They were unlucky at two Olympics.

I'm not so sure that Bruno is exactly at the level of some of the other top male partners. He's certainly working hard at it. Partnering with Aliona has made him better and he's embraced the challenge well.

But now, while I was initially rooting for S/M, I just don't know. The depth is crazy deep in pairs. Maybe it's best not to be so caught up, or heavily invested in skaters you love. I'm not sure how to detach, but I wish I could and maybe then I could just enjoy it all better and ignore the judges' verdicts. And be content with my own, regardless. LOL. Not having too many expectations might be the best way to start. :drama: :p
 
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Quadjump said:
D/R's PCS and GOE were too high in my book. But this GP is in Canada.
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D&R have been one of if not my fav pairs team recently but I feel that was a gift... I couldn't believe when I saw the tech score in the corner when they finished... and Im like.."Really? highest of the competition for side by side doubles?"

Im a very very fair guy. Even if the Goddess Nikodinov took a splat I would be like well yeah she deserves 6th place. I thought D&R should been in 3rd clearly..... Im over home ice advantage.... Cant wait for Ash to get Gold at SkAM with about 235 points total! Yippeeee!!!!!!!!!!
 
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