Nina Mozer: For me, 4th place is akin to complete failure. Interview in Moskow Skater Magazine.

[VGThuy]

Mozer is an "emotional" coach so that is equal of being unprofessional?
I always thought the skaters chose the coach the like and are comfortable with, or else, they leave.

As for the speed fibers and other in Asians, its well known they we are indeed different, Asians, Africans, Europeans but of course even if you are born a certain type doesn't necessarily men you will succeed so many other factors need to be there too.

Please give me an anatomical study about “speed fibers” in Asians and how it translates into figure skating success so that way we can explain away why they succeed and why poor white Europeans are at a disadvantage.

 

[Colonel Green]

Please give me an anatomical study about “speed fibers” in Asians and how it translates into figure skating success so that way we can explain away why they succeed and why poor white Europeans are at a disadvantage.

The speed fibres are shared by Asians and inhabitants of the Iberian peninsula.

 

[Vagabond]

The speed fibres are shared by Asians and inhabitants of the Iberian peninsula.

I'm going to move to the Costa Brava and take up competitive skating.

 

[CaliSteve]

I am Asian, why am I not gifted? Where are my speed fibres?

You and me both.....

 

[analia]

Is it not the interviewee's job to entertain readers in interviews?

 

[Tinami Amori]

I guess "some" people approve of a "strong, opinionated female with unusual loud views and feelings" who speaks her mind only if "they like that female" or if she suites their political leans or issues....

 

[VGThuy]

People want women to be able to speak their mind and not be silenced just because they are a woman. So that's the basic level of achievement we are seeking. There are many ways in which women are silenced either explicitly or in micro-levels. However, apart from advocating for women's right to speak, everyone is still able to actually respond to what is actually said aka the content of their message. Also, since when does using bad science become a "political" issue? I guess it shows that EVERYONE uses race and even biology as political issues even when they argue one side makes it political (which is obviously not true).

 

[Tinami Amori]

However, apart from advocating for women's right to speak, everyone is still able to actually respond to what is actually said aka the content of their message.

But that should work also for those who don't agree with Wagner's "points of view" on certain issues, and yet objecting to them creates a fury (specifically on FSU, more than other chats which are more balanced in various opinions).

So it is pretty much "what a particular micro group considers legitimate subject to speak about or not".. which is noticeable, especially when a group is so "micro" that in comparison to many others of the same type, the group starts standing out as "one with a radical lean", which people in other "groups" on other chats do notice... and laugh about..

Also, since when does using bad science become a "political" issue? I guess it shows that EVERYONE uses race and even biology as political issues even when they argue one side makes it political (which is obviously not true).

I am very indifferent to Mozer in general. So this is for "fairness sake" only.

- Mozer is now cirtiqued not just for "Asians have superior sports abilities" comment, but for several other comments.

- These comments are strictly "her feelings and opinions" and descriptions of her reactions to various situations; these are not "calls for action" or an attempt to have her views influence anything.

- Mozer is not the first one to point out Asians' athletic advantages, physical or in attitude to training. Besides, she is not saying anything negative, but rather giving a compliment/praising, in her mind. She is talking about their advantages, not negatives.

There are several researches done on race/ethnic/geographic advantages in sports, including biological, genetic, sociological, and psychological factors. There are different conclusions.

It is that "era" when discussing any racial differences is a taboo, and to be "politically correct" a lot of research either is denied, or not published, or shifted to disprove differences, partially because it is professional "murder" to find any differences. But it does not mean that some differences, in some issues/cases, to one degree or another, do exist.

 

[eusebius]

But that should work also for those who don't agree with Wagner's "points of view" on certain issues, and yet objecting to them creates a fury (specifically on FSU, more than other chats which are more balanced in various opinions).

Ashley or Richard?

 

[VGThuy]

Ok, but those studies go deeper than she went into and I bet they have to do a lot of analysis with controlled settings to actually determine what those biological features are that will make someone better at a particular sport and whether those physical characteristics only exist in those races. Then you have to control for training, competitive mindsets, resources allocated to training, etc. I'm still looking for the actual science behind what she said. A lot of these blanket statements aren't very scientific either. They're just based on weird superstitions and race-based arguments born out of resentment and possibly some provincial racism. I mean we have had World and Olympic medalists that come from all kinds of shapes and sizes so long as they are physically healthy to compete in an elite level.

It also doesn't matter if her views influence anything, just having some of her statements shown has impact and reveals maybe some deep-seated ignorance and even resentments that might be shared by many, which in of itself can be harmful to the figure skating (and beyond) culture as a whole.

As for Wagner, I don't really know because I don't get into those debates. I do think people have criticized Wagner for the things she says some times. Have you seen her Twitter or IG? She's often having to respond to people who may take her comments the wrong way. Nobody felt she was being silenced there, as they were criticizing what she was saying. And also, whether or not another group "laughs" at another group indicates nothing. That may be more revealing of that group than the group they're laughing at. And I'm sure other people would turn around and "laugh" at them as well. It also may indicate some confirmation bias and you may have already have a conclusion or judgment playing in your head and are carefully selecting certain posts/memories that confirm your biases than actually seeing a conversation as it is actually playing out as a whole.

You're also changing the subject. Usually Wagner's comments are almost always about the actual content itself. People are debating what she is saying. They're not talking about silencing criticism only because she's a woman and therefore she should have to talk. If there is some talk about that, maybe the ones who are calling for her to be silence have made that move first.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Ok, but those studies go deeper than she went into and I bet they have to do a lot of analysis with controlled settings to actually determine what those biological features are that will make someone better at a particular sport and whether those physical characteristics only exist in those races.

I do not have a formed opinion on this subject of "race and athletic advantages". My point is that those a) studies exist, b) discussions take place and opinions exist (correct, incorrect, different, etc.). Mozer expressing her opinion is nothing earth-shaking, as far as conversations about this issue which take place in the Whole Big World (outside of FSU).

It also doesn't matter if her views influence anything, just having some of her statements shown has impact and reveals maybe some deep-seated ignorance and even resentments that might be shared by many, which in of itself can be harmful to the figure skating (and beyond) culture as a whole.

And many things people say here on FSU, thinking they are "the most correct and righteous and fair" in the bigger picture are also "ignorant", "localized, with a lean and a bias", and do create "resentment" to some...

As for Wagner, I don't really know because I don't get into those debates. I do think people have criticized Wagner for the things she says some times.

There is one particular issue, how she "labeled a certain situation", which many outside of FSU disagree with. But that is not a subject to be discussed here.

You're also changing the subject. Usually Wagner's comments are almost always about the actual content itself. People are debating what she is saying. They're not talking about silencing criticism only because she's a woman and therefore she should have to talk. If there is some talk about that, maybe the ones who are calling for her to be silence have made that move first.

I am not. I don't recall anyone ever wanting Wagner to stop talking "because she is a woman". With her it is also "the content and message", yet the arguments in her defense "she is outspoken and straight forward. good! she is a strong, independent and has a point of view".

Mozer is also - independent, outspoken, strong and has a point of view.

It's not just "Wanger". When Papadakis "told honestly and sincerely" she was hopping V/M stumble during FS at the Olys (which to me is disgusting) many defended her as "honest and sincere".

Mozer is NOT wishing anything to anyone, she is not "calling for any action", this interview is not "international", but "local". Nothing she said affects anyone directly.

 

[VGThuy]

I truly do not think people's only defense of Wagner's comments are just because she's outspoken and straight-forward...at least not the ones to be taken seriously. I often mostly see people discussing the actual content of what she's saying. I also mentioned women because you originally stated:

I guess "some" people approve of a "strong, opinionated female with unusual loud views and feelings" who speaks her mind only if "they like that female" or if she suites their political leans or issues....

indicating some sort of mocking of modern feminism.

Regarding all the other things you brought up, most of the discussion of how she "characterized" a certain event was all content-based, not just saying she's "outspoken and straight-forward". If the vast majority of people on this forum agree with that characterization and argued why she's right to call it for what she felt it was (IMO, as what it was) then that's just being out-numbered. It has nothing to do with her being right just because she's outspoken and straight-forward, which was the original thing I took issue with regarding why Mozer does not simply get a pass for speaking her opinion.

Everyone speaks their mind, or at least should be encouraged to. But if people have a problem with the content of the message, then they are also free to speak their mind. If other people don't like what is being said or what the person opposing the original speaker's message was, then they will speak up too. Some times you'll find yourself having the deep minority opinion, but that's the way free discussions go. Some times the majority is wrong, but it's still the majority. It doesn't mean we have to accept it, but we can't complain about being drowned out. Just have to work on improving the minority's argument and maybe recognizing why the majority could be wrong and articulating that in a way for the majority of readers to understand (i.e. lack of personal experience limiting perspectives may make a majority wrong).

I participated in Papadakis's debate. Personally, I said she was expressing a basic human emotion. It was not classy. It was not the most admirable moment in her life, but she was also saying V/M were so ahead that she recognized the only way P/C had a chance of winning was if V/M made a little error here or there. She didn't make a racist and ignorant comment. Maybe those situations aren't totally equal in people's minds. We all recognize ignorant racist statements are also human, but some of us feel they need to be called out.

I also recognized there may be provincial and ignorant people who agree with Mozer just for pointing out race differences without actually going further or backing them up in anyway. Mozer's opinion was obviously just based on deep-seated ignorant ideas regarding race. At least, they are ignorant to me until she actually explains what speed fibers are and explains the science behind it rather than making a blatant, and pretty wrong, statement about human anatomy differences among races and how it specifically helps figure skaters, mainly speed fibers. And also the way she depicted Asians as not suffering pain or whatever.

 

[MacMadame]

People say all sorts of things on FSU. It's not like if someone says "I love how outspoken Ashley is!" that this is now the gospel and no one disagrees with it. Also, bringing in Ashely is just whataboutism.

The issue is Mozer and what she said. No one in this thread said she should sit down and shut up and maybe go home to bake some cookies because she's a woman. They think some of her comments in her interview are whack and are stating so and why. Just like we do for every interview posted here.

For example, the idea that Asians have more fast-twitch muscles (I assume that's what is mean by speed fibers). If you read some of the literature on the subject, it seems that people from certain areas of Africa are genetically "built for speed" including lots of fast-twitch muscle and explosive power, but even that is debated. And there is no evidence that I could find that Asians are. In fact, there are a ton of articles about how they are NOT built for athletics. (Not sure I believe that either but that's what people believe and say.)

But mostly it's one of those areas where it's very hard to determine what is genetics, what is training methods and what is individual (vs. a whole population) not to mention ethnicity is hard to pin down scientifically, which makes it hard to design a study to prove it one way or another.

I will just say that I don't think Asian athletes are dominating figure skating right now because of fast-twitch muscles. I do think being on the shorter side helps, but mostly it's training and culture/upbringing.

 

[PRlady]

Please give me an anatomical study about “speed fibers” in Asians and how it translates into figure skating success so that way we can explain away why they succeed and why poor white Europeans are at a disadvantage.

While you’re at it, explain why I’m so bad with money and my German-descent ex-husbands were short and disorganized.

 

[Prancer]

I do not have a formed opinion on this subject of "race and athletic advantages". My point is that those a) studies exist,

Please cite them so that we can all review the evidence.

 

[aftershocks]

Black-White Differences in Anatomy and Physiology: Black Athletic Superiority

3000 words Due to evolving in different climates, the different races of Man have differing anatomy and physiology. This, then, leads to differences in sports performance—certain races do bet…

notpoliticallycorrect.me

Of course there are physiological and anatomical variances among different ethnic groups based on evolution in different climate regions. However, I am skeptical of some of the generalizations in this article: https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/20...my-and-physiology-black-athletic-superiority/

The article does offer some interesting information based on studies. However, there are too many additional factors involved in athletic success on an individual level to make strict generalizations about ethnic groups. This is especially true due to the fact that so many people today have a mix of different ethnicities in their overall genetic makeup.

Suffice to say, there will be some people among every group who may be born with extraordinary athletic abilities. But that doesn't matter, unless they are exposed to sports in which they might excel, and then their talents must also be nurtured and fully developed. As well, even the linked article points out the fact that desire, motivation, training and mental fortitude are also factors in overcoming apparent or perceived physical disadvantages in certain sports.

I found the passage later in the article discussing physical advantages in swimming vs. running among variant ethnic groups somewhat interesting. But once again, even within ethnic groups, there are physical variations, so I think these generalizations can't always be precisely pinned down as being definitive. There are tall Asians who would probably make good swimmers, and persons of mixed ethnic heritage who exposed to the sport of swimming might excel because they love swimming or were trained in it from an early age, but may not excel in running because they don't like it as much. Psychological and cultural beliefs can also be determinants of athletic success, as the article also briefly discusses. There are as many variances involved as there are human complexities.

 

[Japanfan]

Black-White Differences in Anatomy and Physiology: Black Athletic Superiority

3000 words Due to evolving in different climates, the different races of Man have differing anatomy and physiology. This, then, leads to differences in sports performance—certain races do bet…

notpoliticallycorrect.me

I found the passage later in the article discussing physical advantages in swimming vs. running among variant ethnic groups somewhat interesting. But once again, even within ethnic groups, there are physical variations, so I think these generalizations can't always be precisely pinned down as being definitive. There are tall Asians who would probably make good swimmers, and persons of mixed ethnic heritage who exposed to the sport of swimming might excel because they love swimming or were trained in it from an early age, but may not excel in running because they don't like it as much. Psychological and cultural beliefs can also be determinants of athletic success, as the article also briefly discusses. There are as many variances involved as there are human complexities.

I agree that physical advantages alone are not determinants of athletic success. And white people have them too. Michael Phelps is a kind of a freak of nature.

If we look at FS, it is clear the the sport favors certain body types - small, lean and compact. But even so, some skaters who don't precisely fit that mold have excelled. Just think of all the outstanding Russian skaters. I've never really thought that Asian skaters had an advantage due to body type. But come to think of it, maybe petite Asian ladies do have it a bit easier than larger Western ladies, particularly when it comes to getting through puberty.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ True, but even then every skater is individual and will have certain weaknesses buttressed by strengths. Many of the Japanese skaters have good SS and soft knees due to their training. As well, compact body type helps, but there are still variances in body structure even among 'compact' Asian skaters. They come in different shapes and sizes as much as other groups. Therefore, training, motivation, desire, personality and temperament, as well as physical and mental abilities are all factors.

So once again, it's not body type alone that will determine success or lack thereof.

 

[CaliSteve]

Please give me an anatomical study about “speed fibers” in Asians and how it translates into figure skating success so that way we can explain away why they succeed and why poor white Europeans are at a disadvantage.

I would like to know this as well. I'm Asian and want to know more about my "speed fibers".

 

[caseyedwards]

The fact is anything but first is losing. It is true second place is first loser.

 

[wickedwitch]

Mozer starts with a reasonable point -- that anatomy affects success in sports -- and then takes it to its most illogical conclusion.

 

[alchemy void]

The fact is anything but first is losing. It is true second place is first loser.

I never really pegged you as a Nelly aficionado on this website chatline.

 

[Colonel Green]

Mozer starts with a reasonable point -- that anatomy affects success in sports -- and then takes it to its most illogical conclusion.

It's all laid out in the 19th century racial anatomy textbook she found in the local library.

 

[VGThuy]

It's all laid out in the 19th century racial anatomy textbook she found in the local library.

I can’t wait for her next interview where she gets into phrenology!

 

[Coco]

Valerie Linkin just said something similar about gymnasts with African heritage being stronger or some such bs.

Oh, Russia. Does anyone call them out in Russia over comments like these?

 

[Japanfan]

The fact is anything but first is losing. It is true second place is first loser.

No, it's not true. 'Winning' means different things to different athletes/skaters. To some skaters, it's a win just to get to Nationals or Worlds (e.g. Jean Christian Martinez from the Philippines). To others, getting a medal of any color is winning. Do you think D/R felts like losers when they won Olympic bronze in the individual pairs event? Do you remember Lu Chen's tears of victory and joy when she won bronze at the '98 Olympics. Chen had had a disastrous season the previous year and IIRC, finished lower than 20th at Worlds.

And those are just two of many examples. Although I do recognize that for a few skaters, earning anything less than gold is losing.

 

[Mad for Skating]

This isn’t about feminism. This is about a woman making ignorant comments about race (this is not the first time she’s said this). Plain and simple.

 

[PRlady]

Valerie Linkin just said something similar about gymnasts with African heritage being stronger or some such bs.

Oh, Russia. Does anyone call them out in Russia over comments like these?

I would bet not. On Twitter, the amount of racist garbage coming out of Russia is stupefying, and that’s only counting what I can read in English. I’d characterize the genre as a deeply insecure culture that knows that it’s way behind the West politically, economically and in terms of quality of life for its people, so trolling liberal Americans and Europeans (while attempting to disrupt other countries’ democracies) is the team sport.

 

[snoopy]

I would bet not. On Twitter, the amount of racist garbage coming out of Russia is stupefying, and that’s only counting what I can read in English. I’d characterize the genre as a deeply insecure culture that knows that it’s way behind the West politically, economically and in terms of quality of life for its people, so trolling liberal Americans and Europeans (while attempting to disrupt other countries’ democracies) is the team sport.

I’d be surprised if it is anything that deep. People like to pontificate on all sorts of thing based on superficial observations. Think of all the things people “know” about celebrities and royals. No one in Russia shuts down the racial talk so it just goes on unchecked.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Please cite them so that we can all review the evidence.

The statement i made is not about "validity" of such discussions/articles, but the fact that articles and discussions exist, and me claiming that if they exist, and people read them, and make conclusions (right or wrong), then talking about it (like Mozer and few others did) is not a taboo.

Here are few:
This one no longer shows link to the whole article, just the abstract (but it was there when i saw it)
- https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1357034X030092004

• https://slate.com/technology/2008/12/race-genes-and-sports.html
• https://breakingmuscle.com/fitness/does-race-or-ethnicity-matter-in-athletics
• https://www.livescience.com/10716-scientists-theorize-black-athletes-run-fastest.html

Genetics and Athletic Performance | Encyclopedia.com

Genetics and Athletic PerformanceATHLETICS AND RACERESEARCH ON RACE AND ATHLETIC PERFORMANCEMUSCLE FIBER AND RACESTEREOTYPE THREATCHALLENGING RACIAL THEORIES OF ATHLETIC PERFORMANCEBIBLIOGRAPHY Source for information on Genetics and Athletic Performance: Encyclopedia of Race and Racism dictionary.

www.encyclopedia.com

The correlation between genetics and athletic performance has long been a general topic of discussion among scientists, athletes, coaches, sports fans, and the general public, particularly in light of the success of African and African-American athletes in certain sports. The notion of racial differences in athletic performance has been connected by some scientists to the amount of fast-twitch and slow-twitch muscles possessed by different “racial” groups.

IS IT IN THE GENES? STUDIES HAVE FOUND PHYSICAL DIFFERENCES THAT MIGHT HELP EXPLAIN WHY BLACKS OUTPERFORM WHITES IN CERTAIN SPORTS--BUT SCIENTISTS ARE WARY OF JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS

The best athletes on the planet are black. Stop the conversationright there and few will argue the point. It's always the nextcomment that burns down the

www.si.com

Here is an example of an "internet discussion" on the subject.

Why do people of some races seem to be better at certain sports?

Answer (1 of 28): Because of cultural preference for certain sports. First, we have to dismiss “race” as a thing. It’s not. People have developed some genetic differences in minor degrees due to environmental conditions and millennia of travel limitations. These are mostly inconsequential, and a...

www.quora.com

etc...

Of course there are physiological and anatomical variances among different ethnic groups based on evolution in different climate regions. However, I am skeptical of some of the generalizations in this article:

Of course there ARE. and there is a lot of research to be done, and many versions and opinions that would follow. Some may make wrong conclusions. If that's the case, and if you disagree with one's conclusion, then argue the "conclusion".

The problem is, is that some people freak out when the subject is even mentioned, or if one came to the "wrong in their opinion conclusion".