New Brennan Article re: Zimmerman/Fontana & the Rink in USA Today

Carolla5501

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5,950
when will safe sport complete their investigation? I am surprised that the coaches still appeared at Europeans and US Championships. I hope the skaters they are coaching are evaluating If they should perhaps explore other options. it was hard to see Kevin Aymos and Denney/Frazier have poor skates at Europeans and US Champs. you can’t help but think the Coaches were not able to fully focus on their athletes when dealing with these Allegations that went public, nor should they be allowed to coach until the investigation has been completed. one would think the Skaters would want to remove themselves from that whole situation.
Safesport is way behind. It could be a long time before they actually do anything. If I was a parent of a skater and these are my couch is I’d be moving. I don’t know what these skaters in particular do because they’re older but it certainly isn’t a good look
 

bethy135

Active Member
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Safesport is way behind. It could be a long time before they actually do anything. If I was a parent of a skater and these are my couch is I’d be moving. I don’t know what these skaters in particular do because they’re older but it certainly isn’t a good look
This is where the real difference can be made. Information is power. The biggest change will come from people speaking out and not from underfunded government entities. From shining a light in the dark corners. Adults need to make a living and so they need real incentive to keep their reputation clean when personal integrity is lacking. Figure skating coaches and leadership don't exist in a vacuum anymore. Thank goodness.
 

MsZem

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13,397
when will safe sport complete their investigation? I am surprised that the coaches still appeared at Europeans and US Championships. I hope the skaters they are coaching are evaluating If they should perhaps explore other options. it was hard to see Kevin Aymos and Denney/Frazier have poor skates at Europeans and US Champs. you can’t help but think the Coaches were not able to fully focus on their athletes when dealing with these Allegations that went public, nor should they be allowed to coach until the investigation has been completed. one would think the Skaters would want to remove themselves from that whole situation.
Meite did okay at Euros, though.

I don't think Safesport investigations have an effect outside the US, so it's up to the skaters and their federations who they want to work with. And given what we now know of the FFSG... :scream:
 

Dragonlady

Sew Happy
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10,504
There's a lot about this Christine Brennan follow up article that I don't understand.

My recollection is Cipres sent the obscene pictures to this girl and one other. This girl's parents found out and went to Fontana's/Zimmerman's home to inform them of what had happened and to express their disapproval or dismay.

In another development, the lawyer for the girl and her family said that after Zimmerman was told about the alleged incident involving Cipres and the girl, he decided to allow Cipres to coach the girl one-on-one the following morning in a regularly scheduled training session. Those training sessions at the rink in Wesley Chapel, Florida went on for a week.

“Even after learning about the disturbing allegations, John Zimmerman continued to allow Morgan Cipres to have contact with this child,” attorney Andrea Lewis told USA TODAY Sports. “That’s just unfathomable.”


This is where I get confused. If F/Z knew the parents were upset, why would they allow Cipres to continue to coach the girl? Common sense would dictate that they keep him away from her. And if the girl was so upset about Cipres, why didn't she tell her parents (who already knew about the situation) that he'd been allowed to coach her? And if her parents were informed after the first or the second or the third or the fourth day of the coaching, why didn't they insist the training sessions stop?

The parents are paying the bill. They have financial control of the situation. It doesn't benefit F/Z to anger them further, and it's not exactly great parenting to allow Cipres' one on one coaching once they learned about it.

I'm with the lawyer on this one. I find it unfathomable also and I don't understand why Christine Brennan wrote an article without an explanation why the parents didn't stop the week long coaching.
Once again, you're blaming the victim. After the initial dustup between her parents and her coaches, it may be entirely possible that the girl didn't even tell her parents Cipres coached her, not wanting to be "making more trouble" than she already had.

And you utterly ignore the fact that Zimmerman and Fontana ALLOWED this to happen. Instead you blame the parents for not putting a stop to it. IT SHOULD NEVER HAVE HAPPENED.
 

morgan rye

Member
Messages
55
I agree with all of this! Describing his actions as "stupid" or, in the words of Didier, an "atrocious mistake" minimizes the harm he has done. He sexually abused his 13 year old student. He's a sexual predator. @morgan rye - that goes far beyond "stupidity" and describing it as such is incredibly harmful.
well i don't consider sending a picture of a private part sexual abuse......ask someone who has been raped what sexual abuse is.
 

overedge

G.O.A.T.
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28,281
well i don't consider sending a picture of a private part sexual abuse......ask someone who has been raped what sexual abuse is.
The law in the state where it was sent considers it to be abuse. So whether you or any of us thinks it is or isn't abuse is irrelevant.
 

misskarne

Handy Emergency Backup Mode
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19,865
well i don't consider sending a picture of a private part sexual abuse......ask someone who has been raped what sexual abuse is.
Oh fcuk off with this shitfully disgusting attitude. SHE WAS THIRTEEN. You DON'T consider sending a dick pic to A MINOR CHILD sexual abuse? You're revolting.
 

VGThuy

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32,706
well i don't consider sending a picture of a private part sexual abuse......ask someone who has been raped what sexual abuse is.
People aren’t monolithic no matter what shared experiences they have. Considering that about one in five women have been raped, I bet you you’ll get some women who have been raped who does think sending a picture of a private part is sexual abuse. In fact, I would wager a majority of them do. Consider that statistic, how many have been arguing with you, and how many of them have been women. Do the math.

Why do you keep fighting this? Why are you bending over backwards defending him? Why do you keep trying to say you don’t approve of what he did but then doing everything you can to minimize what he did? What is he to you? What is this action to you?
 

Carolla5501

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5,950
well i don't consider sending a picture of a private part sexual abuse......ask someone who has been raped what sexual abuse is.
It’s pretty evident that you don’t get it. But you Want us all to know that you are totally clueless. We get it you apparently don’t. I certainly hope you are not allowed to have any contact with any child under the age of 18 because you have already proven that you don’t have the common sense to protect them

I can’t imagine if your child came home and showed you this picture to you. your response would’ve been “ so no big deal, don’t worry about just it go back and have him teach you how to skate tomorrow”. Apparently until he raped you it’s not really a problem. oh OK then.

I think the question above is very relevant, what is this to you. Why is this an acceptable behavior in your world?
 
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Artistic Skaters

Drawing Figures
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7,555
Some people apparently want clearly defined definitions when it comes to specific terms, but I don't see the point of splitting hairs. Whether it's specifically defined as sexual abuse or peddling pornography to a child, it's still under the umbrella of inappropriate and/or illegal misconduct.

A better area to analyze to me is how the management and coaches representing a relatively new rink and skating club have descended so quickly to such a serious breakdown in leadership that overlooks and defends misconduct. Since they all came to the new facility from other rinks and clubs, it certainly seems to contribute to the POV that these patterns of behavior have become part of the skating culture.
 

VGThuy

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32,706
Some people apparently want clearly defined definitions when it comes to specific terms, but I don't see the point of splitting hairs. Whether it's specifically defined as sexual abuse or peddling pornography to a child, it's still under the umbrella of inappropriate and/or illegal misconduct.

A better area to analyze to me is how the management and coaches representing a relatively new rink and skating club have descended so quickly to such a serious breakdown in leadership that overlooks and defends misconduct. Since they all came to the new facility from other rinks and clubs, it certainly seems to contribute to the POV that these patterns of behavior have become part of the skating culture.
Seriously, what do they think? That "peddling pornography to a child" sounds better than "sexual abuse"? Therefore, it can be argued to be ok? Is that what they want us to adopt as a society? Or is it only to apply when it makes it convenient for skaters I like?
 

okokok777

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89
well i don't consider sending a picture of a private part sexual abuse......ask someone who has been raped what sexual abuse is.
Oh wow - normally, I would spend some time explaining how his actions are literally considered "sexual abuse" under Florida law, call out your horrifying spread of misinformation regarding sexual abuse laws & the specific facts of the case and break down how damaging your opinions are, but based on that response, I don't think there is any point. All I can say is that I really hope that you're never the first point of contact for a child who has been abused.
 

Japanfan

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23,434
well i don't consider sending a picture of a private part sexual abuse......ask someone who has been raped what sexual abuse is.
There are different kinds of sexual abuse, as defined per law. And regardless of whether sending a picture of private part to a minor is defined as sexual abuse, it remains an abuse to the receiver's dignity and it still has the potential to cause trauma. Just because getting a picture of a private part isn't an actual rape doesn't make it okay.

It's kind of like you are comparing a theft in which no person was harmed to a theft in which a person was bodily harmed, and justifying the former. But it's still a theft and will still cause trauma.


Why do you keep fighting this? Why are you bending over backwards defending him? Why do you keep trying to say you don’t approve of what he did but then doing everything you can to minimize what he did? What is he to you? What is this action to you?
This.
 
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Dragonlady

Sew Happy
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well i don't consider sending a picture of a private part sexual abuse......ask someone who has been raped what sexual abuse is.
I don't care what YOU consider his actions to be sexual abuse or not. His act IS legally and morally classed as sexual abuse, and it's made worse by being sexual abuse by a person in a position of authority. If a school teacher sent his dick pick to a 13 year old child in his class, what do you think would happen to that teacher, or to that school?

Are you saying that if an adult male is chasing after 13 year olds flashing his dick, the girl should not be protected from him and he shouldn't face consequences because after all, he didn't rape her?

What kind of person thinks like this.
 

morgan rye

Member
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55
I don't care what YOU consider his actions to be sexual abuse or not. His act IS legally and morally classed as sexual abuse, and it's made worse by being sexual abuse by a person in a position of authority. If a school teacher sent his dick pick to a 13 year old child in his class, what do you think would happen to that teacher, or to that school?

Are you saying that if an adult male is chasing after 13 year olds flashing his dick, the girl should not be protected from him and he shouldn't face consequences because after all, he didn't rape her?

What kind of person thinks like this.
and you are a lawyer admitted to the bar in florida?
 

morgan rye

Member
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There are different kinds of sexual abuse, as defined per law. And regardless of whether sending a picture of private part to a minor is defined as sexual abuse, it remains an abuse to the receiver's dignity and it still has the potential to cause trauma. Just because getting a picture of a private part isn't an actual rape doesn't make it okay.

It's kind of like you are comparing a theft in which no person was harmed to a theft in which a person was bodily harmed, and justifying the former. But it's still a theft and will still cause trauma.




This.
why can you not understand i am not defending him ..... all sides are at fault for all different reasons and evidently no one in her family wanted to report it and the girl did not want to talk to the police.
 

morgan rye

Member
Messages
55
I don't care what YOU consider his actions to be sexual abuse or not. His act IS legally and morally classed as sexual abuse, and it's made worse by being sexual abuse by a person in a position of authority. If a school teacher sent his dick pick to a 13 year old child in his class, what do you think would happen to that teacher, or to that school?

Are you saying that if an adult male is chasing after 13 year olds flashing his dick, the girl should not be protected from him and he shouldn't face consequences because after all, he didn't rape her?

What kind of person thinks like this.
what kind of person says who thinks like this the case (if it goes that far) will be decided when everyone speaks and a decision is made. until then keep your judgements in your head.
 

Japanfan

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23,434
why can you not understand i am not defending him ..... all sides are at fault for all different reasons and evidently no one in her family wanted to report it and the girl did not want to talk to the police.
So the girl and her family are at fault? Do you know how many incidences of inappropriate sexual behavior go unreported? Do you understand that traumatized people may need some time to process the trauma if reporting it is in order?

You just don't seem to get it that the person who sent the pix and those who have defended him are at fault.

oh dear i am revolting.
Actually, yes you are.
 

thvudragon

Usova's Apprentice
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4,849
why can you not understand i am not defending him ..... all sides are at fault for all different reasons and evidently no one in her family wanted to report it and the girl did not want to talk to the police.
And there you go victim blaming again. That you can’t see outside yourself for one second and see how dangerous and destructive your attitude is, no one can help you. But sure, go ahead and keep acting like the only sane person in the room.
 

VGThuy

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32,706
and you are a lawyer admitted to the bar in florida?
I am a lawyer, though not one in Florida. That said, all people can read criminal statutes and the act that he committed would qualify as one where if convicted he would have to have to register in the sex offender registry:


Further, “sexual abuse” is a broad term that is more colloquial than legal. Sexual abuse can include all kinds of sexual activities. The term “sexual assault” is more specific and includes touching, penetration, etc. I’m assuming that is what you mean. Also, I think this had all been explained to you previously.
 

Aerobicidal

Inspired by Selections
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10,735
why can you not understand i am not defending him ..... all sides are at fault for all different reasons and evidently no one in her family wanted to report it and the girl did not want to talk to the police.
Are you saying the survivor is at fault for not wanting to talk to the police? That her family is at fault for not wanting to report it? Or is there another reason the survivor and her family are at fault?

It's a little strange to me that a discussion of who and what is to blame for a situation like this would ever focus on sources other than the perpetrator, people in power who supported (in this case) him, people responsible for the power structure that made it easier than it should have been for this to happen, the context and history of the legal system that makes it extremely traumatic and difficult for survivors to get anything resembling justice, and like 30,000 other things that are not survivors and their families.

There are systemic problems in skating that have become more obvious than even in the past few months. As delusional is this is, I hope that the people directly involved in skating are focusing on changing things that drastically need to be changed and giving exactly zero ****s as to whether survivors and their families should have told every authority possible every fact possible as soon as possible after unwanted sexual behavior occurred.
 

bethy135

Active Member
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Morgan Rye is actually being helpful in this thread by demonstrating what "we" are up against. There are many many coaches and leaders in skating who think the exact same way. Our rink's coaches were the same way. It is indeed a systemic problem and seeing it articulated in black and white is very sobering and a great constant reminder.
 

okokok777

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Messages
89
Morgan Rye is actually being helpful in this thread by demonstrating what "we" are up against. There are many many coaches and leaders in skating who think the exact same way. Our rink's coaches were the same way. It is indeed a systemic problem and seeing it articulated in black and white is very sobering and a great constant reminder.
I was in the middle of typing a very similar comment when you posted this, @bethy135! I agree with you 100%.

Unfortunately, people like Morgan Rye are commonly the first point of contact for children who have been abused in these settings. They minimize the actions of the abuser and attribute blame to the survivor. They're willfully ignorant, spout lies/misinformation and act indignant whenever they are called out on their behavior. The guilt and shame that the survivor is already feeling is magnified & the abuser is able to continue on, as if nothing ever happened.

I'm a huge proponent of education and productive conversations. However, the people who aren't willing to change or listen are some of the most dangerous since they help create an environment where a predator can become wildly prolific.
 

Carolla5501

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5,950
and you are a lawyer admitted to the bar in florida?
I’ll bet not. but unlike you this poster understands right and wromg






oh dear i am revolting.
Well, we have finally found something we all agree on. You are revolting.
And I agree with an earlier poster there’s a reason you pick the name Morgan.

Your claims earlier that you have no relation to the skaters are ringing Hollow. You show up randomly and just talk about how he didn’t do anything wrong. you’re a disgrace. I’m very very afraid that this poster is actually active with children and skating. I’m also very very afraid that this poster is abusive or at least facilitating the abuse of children. Because there’s no other reason a poster would come on here over and over and over again and try to convince us that behavior we all know is despicable is not really that bad.
 

Vagabond

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16,341
Unfortunately, people like Morgan Rye are commonly the first point of contact for children who have been abused in these settings. They minimize the actions of the abuser and attribute blame to the survivor. They're willfully ignorant, spout lies/misinformation and act indignant whenever they are called out on their behavior.
So do child abusers. :shuffle:
 

Carolla5501

Well-Known Member
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5,950
I don't care what YOU consider his actions to be sexual abuse or not. His act IS legally and morally classed as sexual abuse, and it's made worse by being sexual abuse by a person in a position of authority. If a school teacher sent his dick pick to a 13 year old child in his class, what do you think would happen to that teacher, or to that school?

Are you saying that if an adult male is chasing after 13 year olds flashing his dick, the girl should not be protected from him and he shouldn't face consequences because after all, he didn't rape her?

What kind of person thinks like this.
A person who thinks like this is either an abuser or someone who is facilitating abuse in my humble opinion
 

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