Mass Shooting at LGBT Nightclub in Orlando

[skategal]

I think it's more about if you're going to post something, be sure you know what you're talking about.

So not one of the non-US posters I listed above has anything of value to add to the discussion? We are all stupid?

Thanks for confirming my sense that non-US posters need not contribute.

 

[antmanb]

My sister feels this way quite strongly. She says no one around her at her work and out in the world is talking about this at all. She feels no one cares about it because its LGBT.

I don't feel that way, but then I come here and see all my wonderful FSU straight allies.

I have to say that when something like this happens in the US there is always talk about it in the office at work. This time around it's crickets and I end up asking myself the same question as your sister.

 

[VGThuy]

So not one of the non-US posters I listed above has anything of value to add to the discussion? We are all stupid?

Thanks for confirming my sense that non-US posters need not contribute.

All I've seen were people responding to posts with corrections of fact-based assertions made and offering explanations as to why the gun control debate has gone the way it has. Then I see them responding, if felt the need to. That's how discussions on here tend to go. However, what I've seen from you is numerous emotionally-charged responses taking those people's responses and explanations to you as demands for silence. Some of the responses to you may also be a bit emotional, but they were natural reactions of the tone of the posts they were responding to. Of course non-U.S. posters can contribute, but don't whine and cry if the responses are more heated than you expect, especially when they either continue to assert wrong things or make generalizations that people don't agree with and feel is flippant or condescending. Notice how only you are having issues with communicating with posters in this thread. Some people had some debates, but don't feel the need to take it as personal as you do. See the reaction to Allezfred's post and some of the posters you cited and how they handled the discussion and compare that to your numerous posts on this that really is making it about you and has gone way beyond the points you initially made. "Offensive truths" have the potential to hurt, doesn't it?

 

[BlueRidge]

@skategal if I'd known you were going to have such a hissy fit I wouldn't have responded to you.

This is just a subforum of a figure skating discussion board and its really not that important what people say in the heat of the moment. Please don't take it so much to heart.

 

[skategal]

@skategal if I'd known you were going to have such a hissy fit I wouldn't have responded to you.

This is just a subforum of a figure skating discussion board and its really not that important what people say in the heat of the moment. Please don't take it so much to heart.

That's pretty funny considering you were the one calling me out and saying 'Bullshit' this and 'BS that'

I don't think I am the one who had/is having a hissy fit here.

 

[skategal]

All I've seen were people responding to posts with corrections of fact-based assertions made and offering explanations as to why the gun control debate has gone the way it has. Then I see them responding, if felt the need to. That's how discussions on here tend to go.

It was more than just fact-based assertions. One other poster said 'stop jumping to conclusions about what I post.' One exchange offered completely anecdotal information as a way to shut down another poster's comments.

Of course non-U.S. posters can contribute, but don't whine and cry if the responses are more heated than you expect, especially when they either continue to assert wrong things or make generalizations that people don't agree with and feel is flippant or condescending. Notice how only you are having issues with communicating with posters in this thread. Some people had some debates, but don't feel the need to take it as personal as you do. See the reaction to Allezfred's post and some of the posters you cited and how they handled the discussion and compare that to your numerous posts on this that really is making it about you and has gone way beyond the points you initially made. "Offensive truths" have the potential to hurt, doesn't it?

I was more than willing to discuss until I was told I shouldn't?

I didn't complain or say a peep to Blueridge's BS rant.

I'm not the one to getting personal in this thread about any other poster here.

I see some posters getting rather personal with me though.

 

[genevieve]

My sister feels this way quite strongly. She says no one around her at her work and out in the world is talking about this at all. She feels no one cares about it because its LGBT.

(I may have already posted this - apologies of duplicate, this week is a blur)

On Monday a FB friend posted that all her coworkers were asking how she was doing, how she was coping with "gay 9/11", and that she really wanted to talk about anything else. My response was that no one was talking about it at all in my office. Not in an avoidance way, but chatting about their great weekends, etc. I was a MESS at work Monday. No one noticed. Yesterday, I brought in donuts and simply brought up that I had been out of it, gone to the vigil etc, and the response was ... muted.

I think it's less about them not caring about LGBT/hispanic victims, and more about 1) there've been so many shooting and other attacks that it's almost just another day, 2) the privilege of being very removed from it (which does include not being part of those communities, but also in a geographic sense) and 3) we have zero office culture right now. I can guarantee, though, that if the target had been a place with lots of children, our ED would have had us all talk about it, because children are her main point of empathy and interest.

As others have said, this attack has impacted me more than others, and I'm not sure why. Really random attacks scare me more than targeted ones, as there is nothing you could do, or be, to prevent them. I don't feel less safe in my everyday life, but it does recall the days when just being queer was a radical act, subject to a lot of negativity. There are still people out there who feel negatively toward us, and people with negativity and hatred are being emboldened. It's disturbing.

 

[BlueRidge]

My organization has put out a statement. We generally put out information for counselors dealing with trauma when these kinds of events happen. The statement does emphasize the LGBT aspect.

I appreciated this:

Events like this can cause a ripple effect in the Orlando and LGBTQ communities and will require long-term attention and support. One consequence that we want counselors across the country to be on the look-out for is vicarious trauma - when individuals feel traumatized by the incident even if they were not there when it occurred. Given that people process trauma differently, counselors are called to uniquely attend to the needs of each individual client.

I think a lot of us experiencing vicarious trauma.

I have to admit though I wish we had some kind of gathering for staff about this.

 

[Vash01]

(I may have already posted this - apologies of duplicate, this week is a blur)

On Monday a FB friend posted that all her coworkers were asking how she was doing, how she was coping with "gay 9/11", and that she really wanted to talk about anything else. My response was that no one was talking about it at all in my office. Not in an avoidance way, but chatting about their great weekends, etc. I was a MESS at work Monday. No one noticed. Yesterday, I brought in donuts and simply brought up that I had been out of it, gone to the vigil etc, and the response was ... muted.

I think it's less about them not caring about LGBT/hispanic victims, and more about 1) there've been so many shooting and other attacks that it's almost just another day, 2) the privilege of being very removed from in (which does include not being part of those communities, but also in a geographic sense) and 3) we have zero office culture right now. I can guarantee, though, that if the target had been a place with lots of children, our ED would have had us all talk about it, because children are her main point of empathy and interest.

As others have said, this attack has impacted me more than others, and I'm not sure why. Really random attacks scare me more than targeted ones, as there is nothing you could do, or be, to prevent them. I don't feel less safe in my everyday life, but it does recall the days when just being queer was a radical act, subject to a lot of negativity. There are still people out there who feel negatively toward us, and people with negativity and hatred are being emboldened. It's disturbing.

This is so sad. I thought we had grown past these attitudes, with a few exceptions. I am not LGBT but the Orlando tragedy upset me a lot. Not just because so many innocent people died but it seemed like a hate crime against a community (LGBT in this case) right from the word go. This week has felt different, even though I can't claim to experience the kind of fear you mentioned. It must be really difficult. Nobody should have to live in fear in a free country.

In my office nobody has mentioned Orlando. It's not like they don't know about it, but this is a very indifferent type of group (others blame it on us being engineers). During election years we do discuss politics and we are mostly democrats, but it's been quiet this year. I think some workplaces discuss other things more; this is a 'nose to grindstone' type environment.

In any case, I am sorry for what you are going through.

 

[allezfred]

I had somebody mention it to me today in my office.

I think it has hit the LGBT community here and all over the world really hard, more so than other mass shootings in the U.S. because any LGBT person can identify with a gay club or bar being a safe space where we can be ourselves. To have that violated by something so awful is deeply traumatising in a way that many outside our community don't get.

 

[once_upon]

Being a straight person and no longer working, I'm probably not qualified to answer or add to the conversion.

At a recent conference I was asked to attend a meeting where social reform issues were being discussed. The president of this organization who is gay and not allowed to be ordinated in the Methodist church, critized many Methodists for being a LGBTQ supporter in the closet.

Meaning that many straight people say they support LGBTQIA in private conversion, but when action is required we fail to step up in public. So we react with silence or avoidance or embarrassment or not know how to respond.

I'm angry that you experienced these acts of inaction. I would like to think I would be among the people who would bring up this topic in the office.

 

[aliceanne]

My co-workers are not particularly interested in LGBT issues, but they did talk about it as shocking the same way as any other mass shooting. On the other hand they tend to ignore incidents in other countries, I don't remember any talk about the incidents in Paris.

 

[oleada]

For what it's worth, we talked about it at work quite a bit. But we're a social work office that's liberal and mostly Latino.

 

[my little pony]

i dont associate with hunters or trump voters because life is too short. i like hearing the dissenting opinions from people outside the US. because i hear enough opinions in the US about how we need our guns and so forth and it sounds so crazy to me.

 

[BlueRidge]

I guess since this where the gun discussion is, I don't think anyone has posted yet, Conn. Sen. Chris Murphy is engaging this afternoon in a "talking filibuster" for legislation on "gun safety."

 

[Rob]

Not sure if this was posted before but this is an interesting essay by Justice Stevens:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...a19578-b8fa-11e3-96ae-f2c36d2b1245_story.html

 

[BlueRidge]

Meanwhile, on the subject of guns and do nothingness, in the past 24 hours 3 people have been shot about a mile from where I live. That's in D.C. where courts continually strike down our gun control legislation. Nonetheless, it is considered to have been a major issue in the primary election that happened yesterday in which 3 incumbents were defeated.

Also, my sister attended an Orlando vigil in Providence RI yesterday. Speakers there included the governor, mayor, and members of the state legislature. She said they talked about actions to reduce gun violence and legislation that is pending.

 

[Sylvia]

^^^ On a related note, here is a NY public radio article: http://www.northcountrypublicradio....ines-states-like-ny-take-on-gun-control-fight

A lot of states, including big states like New York and California, have already banned or severely restricted the sale of military-style rifles like the one used in the Florida night club.
...
"The state level ban is where the action is for gun control today," said Adam Winkler, a law professor at UCLA who wrote a book about the gun control debate called “Gun Fight.” He said New York isn’t alone in going after these weapons. "People constantly say, oh, nothing has ever changed, we’re at a complete stalemate on guns. And if you only look at Congress, that’s right. But since Newtown, we’ve seen a wave of legislation at the state level, including restrictive new laws in California, Washington, Oregon, Colorado."

 

[snoopy]

I have two gay co-workers and I have debated on offering condolences or other comment to them on the issue. It seemed presumptuous to do so to me in a way, but since the topic came-up - say something, don't say something?

 

[BlueRidge]

I have two gay co-workers and I have debated on offering condolences or other comment to them on the issue. It seemed presumptuous to do so to me in a way, but since the topic came-up - say something, don't say something?

I'd go with say something, but not so much offer condolences as just show that you care about what happened and recognize what it means to LGBT people.

 

[Nomad]

I'm with BlueRidge. I have yet to hear from a friend or family member on the subject. I'm not Latino and I don't live in Orlando but that doesn't mean I haven't been affected by this atrocity.

 

[TheGirlCanSkate]

There was little to no talk at work, but the teens, wow.... My daughter said her social media erupted with it right away and it was what her classmates were talking about in school. I asked if the teachers said anything - esp social studies and she said no. No staff member said anything. I was really surprised how a major news event was not discussed by the adults.

 

[TOADS]

Disney has donated 1 Million Dollars. Thank you.

https://disneyparks.disney.go.com/b...company-donates-1-million-to-oneorlando-fund/

#orlandostrong

Apparently Disney will match any donation made by its employees....

 

[MacMadame]

No one at my work was talking about it either. Though we don't talk that much about non-work issues.

But my FB feed is full of talk (and the usual changing of profile pics) and not just from my LGBTQ friends.

Interestingly enough, there is a lot more talk about how we're sick of "thoughts and prayers" without any action and links to petitions to change the laws than there usually is. Plus a few memes to the effect that the NRA better watch out, because now the LGBTQ community is pissed at them and they get things done/know how to change the laws.

I do think this may be a turning point in the gun discussion in the US even though most people would think that the Newtown shooting would have been (because... Children!). I don't know why Newtown wasn't or any of the other shootings that came after but better late than never.

 

[BlueRidge]

maybe the fact that terrorists in t he US can so easily get guns is changing minds? Not just Orlando, but San Bernardino as well.

 

[Vash01]

Deleted post

 

[MacMadame]

I do think that after a while you realize something has to change. Or maybe it's because these crimes were committed in the name of ISIS that people are more upset about them than those committed for personal motives?

Beats me.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Prior to Orlando tragedy, the following confrontations between Lt.Gov. Gavin Newsom (Calif) and the members of LGBT Community on the gun control issues took place end of May, 2016.

http://www.abc10.com/news/local/lgb...st-newsom-on-gun-control-initiative/218182022
“Lt. Gov. Gavin Newsom is fighting with a lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender gun group, whose members say Newsom’s gun control initiative would hurt the LGBT community.

The Pink Pistols are a gun group that teaches LGBT members how to defend themselves. Member Nicki Stallard, a transgender woman living in Fresno, recently appeared in an ad from the Coalition for Civil Liberties. The ad read, “If Gavin Newsom gets this passed, how will transgender woman like me be able to protect ourselves?”

Calif. lt. gov. angers civil rights groups for attacking transgender woman’s pro-gun stance.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/may/25/gavin-newsom-angers-civil-rights-groups-for-attack/


What bothers me is that VERY few discussions, when addressing “gun control”, distinguish between three issues:
- Semi-automatic/assault weapons and regular hand pistols/guns
- Abolishing 2nd Amendment and tightening the procedures/screening for/of prospective gun owners.
- Assault and defense

===

Few more very interesting issues came up about the shooter and his environment.

- Omar Mateen's father is an odd one (besides his obvious anti-gay stand)
"Just hours before the shooting in Orlando, Seddique Mateen posted a video on a Facebook page called “Provisional Government of Afghanistan — Seddique Mateen.” In it, he seems to be pretending to be Afghanistan’s president, and he orders the arrest of an array of Afghan political figures.

The most recent video on Mateen’s YouTube channel shows him declaring his candidacy for the Afghan presidency. The timing of the video is strange, as it came a year after presidential elections were held in Afghanistan."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...9a8cd0-30e4-11e6-ab9d-1da2b0f24f93_story.html

- Omar Mateen was on the FBI Terror watch list, then was cleared, then evaluated and hired by G4S Security Firm, was a registered Dem and yet wanted to kill "all black people" and later "save the black people", his co-workers called him unstable and radical at times, Mateen recorded a video about corrupt handling of the BP Oil Spill, he passed his security clearance exams with 238 points out of 240 with 168 required minimum..... he scanned Disney World, took his wife to buy ammunition, spoke "anti-gay" and yet was an active member of the local gay community.... called Afghanistan his home land...

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/14/us/omar-mateen-fbi.html?_r=0
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/14/g4s-security-firm-orlando-attack-omar-mateen
https://fellowshipofminds.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/omar-mateens-voter-registration.jpg
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na...complained-multiple-1465777922-htmlstory.html
http://www.tmz.com/2016/06/15/omar-mateen-bp-oil-spill-video/
http://www.news.com.au/world/north-...o/news-story/5cdd513a7f8ed5f02349c370a7c242eb
"Meanwhile, another report said that Mateen — an avowed ISIS supporter who died in a shootout with cops — was an excellent marksman who racked up near-perfect scores on Florida firearms tests.Records obtained by NBC News show that Mateen, 29, regularly scored in the 230s on the Class G Florida gun license exam, which is given on a local range at regular intervals.The highest possible score is 240, according to NBC."

He needs to be STUDIED! his brain, his life...
His father needs to be STUDIED too....

 

[TheGirlCanSkate]

The senate filibuster is still going strong at 8 hours. The longest was 24 hours. #enough #filibuster #holdthefloor

If anything positive comes from this it will be the ban lifted from gun violence research and also national gun reform. I noticed the Community College is now scrolling the names and ages of each victim on it's giant marquee.

The live video is http://www.senate.gov/floor/

 

[ballettmaus]

Pretty much every post in this thread by a non-American has had pushback against it, in some way.

A short list off the top of my head is: balletmaus, jlai, misskarne, angelskates, aussiewilly, me, even manhn. I'm sure someone will be along soon to pushback against Xela M's post above (eta. yep it's already there.)

It certainly creates an impression that if you aren't American, you need to not comment here.

Huh? I can't say that I felt “pushed back” or as if I wasn’t allowed to participate in the discussion. I wasn’t a fan of Prancer’s sarcasm but this whole discussion made me pause and think and I have to say, I can understand that those who actually want change are tired of the constant criticism that always pours down on the US after shootings. Because they want it and nothing's happening. And in hindsight, I can see that my reply to rfisher’s post may have come across as naïve, as if I thought the world was black and white.

I know it’s not and I know that nothing is ever as simple as it seems. But rather than snap at each other, I think we should all try to understand where we’re coming from and pass along information. It's not going to solve the problem of gun control but it helps us understand each others view better and increasing tolerance has never been a bad thing. And who knows, maybe somehow, someday something that is said does lead to something. (Wishful thinking, I know, but hope springs eternal )

As I said, my reply was based on impressions I get through the media; reports that make it sound like there's talk but no action, reports about protests against gay marriage when it was made legal, protests against the treatment of African Americans after Michael Brown (and others) were shot, protests against abortion in front of abortion clinics. So many protests are reported on and yet there has not been one report of protests for gun control after a shooting. However, I forgot to ask why. I simply assumed there are no protests, but I should have asked why I wasn't hearing about it. Am I not hearing about it because there are no protests, and if there aren’t, why not? Or are there protests and I simply don't hear about it? And if I do not hear about it then why don’t I hear about it?

I guess, we’re all likely to sometimes jump to conclusions or to not think about the “other side of things”. I have to admit that I have never before considered how those who want change must feel because I’ve only ever thought about the need for change. But I know how much it frustrated me as a kid when I saw a problem, couldn’t find a solution and then my mom told what the problem was. And this is on a so much larger scale, so I can only imagine how frustrating it must be to see a need for change, be for it and to not get anywhere for the reason that gun control stagnates in the US and then hear what you actually want and know as never-ending criticism.