Keeping Track of Criminal Cases & SafeSport Suspensions in Skating

[MacMadame]

The evidence shows that false reports are few and far between.

Have there been any cases before either SafeSport or OSIC that turned out to be a false report? Obviously, we don't know about all of their cases, but I'd think if a skater was accused falsely, they would be shouting to the skies what the outcome was.

Also, WADA operates under the principle of guilty until proven innocent. So there is precedent. The main difference being that sexually assaulting someone doesn't improve performance.

One of the articles mentioned that CT has changed the statue of limitations on rape to 20 years (thank goodness), but it only applies to rapes that happened after the law change. Applying to earlier crimes would be unconstitutional.

It's not unconstitutional using the federal constitution as many states have enacted laws that take effect retroactively including changing the statute of limitations (and not just for sex crimes). So I assume it was only unconstitutional via CT's constitution.

I fear suspending athletes under investigation for sexual assaults from competing will cause more victims to be doubted or their credibility doubted or be subject to more scrutiny thus, preventing more of them from speaking out.

It sucks that athletes under investigation can still compete but it's probably safer for the victims if they are allowed to keep competing.

It depends. The pattern in the US with SafeSport is to suspend the accused if there is evidence they would be a danger to minors assuming the allegations are true. Since this is something that happened between adults, at a party and not at the rink, and Soerensen isn't a FT coach, I suspect the OSIC decided he wasn't enough of a danger to minors at the rink to do that. I am not sure I agree with this but I don't know what the solution is either.

He is not dangerous.

This is unknown.

He has not been proven guilty.

True. The investigation is ongoing.

He is not a coach who has direct contact with kids.

We don't know that either.

He can't be tried in Canada for a crime that was committed in the USA, and no Skate Canada cannot be sued because he wasn't skating for Canada until 2018. The incident in question took place in 2012, when he had no connection to Skate Canada and wasn't a Canadian skater.

They can be sued for whatever action they take now. Which is why their response has been so "we've lawyered up."

 

[Willin]

I wonder how much stuff is being covered up. Of course SafeSport is doing their part about being safe at the rink and skating functions, but it seems most of these cases (sans some of the Sappenfield adjacent stuff and Cipres) happened at parties that SafeSport has no control over: Coughlin, the Canadian skater from last year, and this accusation.

Considering we can't exactly stop young people from going to parties, I don't know a good solution to this other than education of skaters - but even then would it work? Saying "no parties" or "you'll get raped if you go to a party" often seems very puritanical and heavyhanded - especially when things turn out fun most of the time.

A key piece of evidence is whether the accuser told a friend or family member at the time. That’s what helped Jean Carroll in her case against Trump which was even older. If she told even one person she was raped, especially if that person was outside the skating world with no connection to Nik, that would be really important.

I saw elsewhere that there may be other victims, and I'd imagine if there were there would have been rumors going around about him. Even if it was just one victim I'd bet there were rumors. If there were other victims or if it was something of an open secret (as many of these cases have seemed to be) that would make the case stronger.

It'll be both. You'll have some saying Nik is a nice guy, he won't have done it. And on the other side of the coin you'll have what you see on Laurence's IG account. There is no resolution per se, unless it's provable or Nik says yes he did it or the other person recants. Even then, the water has been tainted. No win.

The hardest part of this is how complex people are. Most people that do bad things don't act bad most of the time. In fact, some are very nice and well respected. So the people that have only known him as nice may vehemently defend him and be correct based on their experiences.

I don't know. This clip has been making the rounds, people are saying from Tessa and Scott's reactions, they must have known something was off with him.

Just more evidence V/M fans are nuts.

But based on the word of skaters I knew who trained at their rink, Tessa and Scott (especially Tessa) gave dirty looks and eye rolls to everyone so I wouldn't read anything into this.

 

[skategal]

I watched the clip....it shows Nik being a bit of a dick to Lolo and others looking uncomfortable but that clip doesn't mean he is guilty of sexual assault or V/M knew anything.

(PS. FWIW, I do believe the victim.)

 

[On My Own]

Must we pay attention to that clip, gosh. Who the heck gives a flying shit if they knew or not.

 

[overedge]

I wonder how much stuff is being covered up. Of course SafeSport is doing their part about being safe at the rink and skating functions, but it seems most of these cases (sans some of the Sappenfield adjacent stuff and Cipres) happened at parties that SafeSport has no control over: Coughlin, the Canadian skater from last year, and this accusation.

Considering we can't exactly stop young people from going to parties, I don't know a good solution to this other than education of skaters - but even then would it work? Saying "no parties" or "you'll get raped if you go to a party" often seems very puritanical and heavyhanded - especially when things turn out fun most of the time.

Educating the men would also be a very important part of this, not just teaching the women to avoid potentially dangerous situations. I know you weren't suggesting that only the women should be warned, but IMO educating the men is necessary too. A message like "If you don't want your skating career to be ruined by accusations of SA - don't assault anyone", and/or training in understanding what consent means.

 

[Tesla]

Educating the men would also be a very important part of this, not just teaching the women to avoid potentially dangerous situations. I know you weren't suggesting that only the women should be warned, but IMO educating the men is necessary to. A message like "If you don't want your skating career to be ruined by accusations of SA - don't assault anyone", and/or training in understanding what consent means.

How about a message of "Just be a good human. Respect people and boundaries"? @overedge I know you meant no disrespect.

 

[skategal]

Education on consent is key and one of the ways to reduce these crimes.

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

Educating the men would also be a very important part of this, not just teaching the women to avoid potentially dangerous situations. I know you weren't suggesting that only the women should be warned, but IMO educating the men is necessary to. A message like "If you don't want your skating career to be ruined by accusations of SA - don't assault anyone", and/or training in understanding what consent means.

Teaching consent should be a mandatory part of national training camps.

 

[Aceon6]

Prefacing this as it may or may not pertain to this situation, but pretty people who are good at something most of us can’t do start getting away with things as early as middle school. The education needs to start well before puberty ends.

 

[Colonel Green]

It's not unconstitutional using the federal constitution as many states have enacted laws that take effect retroactively including changing the statute of limitations (and not just for sex crimes). So I assume it was only unconstitutional via CT's constitution.

The US Supreme Court held in Stogner v. California that it is unconstitutional for states to revive offenses that previously lapsed under a statute of limitations. You can, however, extend limitations periods that are still active.

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

Brennan is reporting that the victim's attorney is calling for Sorensen to be suspended ahead of Canadian Nats. Trigger warning: her new article contains the same disturbing info as in her previous report.

 

[Alilou]

Prefacing this as it may or may not pertain to this situation, but pretty people who are good at something most of us can’t do start getting away with things as early as middle school. The education needs to start well before puberty ends.

No Means No campaign in action in Nairobi, Kenya. Kids being taught in schools - girls to speak out, and self-defence, and boys to do the right thing, and that no means no. This vid has been making the FB rounds for a while, but there's also lots of articles about it.

32M views · 105K reactions | Boys Respecting Women | It's amazing what happens when boys are actually taught to respect women. Follow ATTN on Instagram: https://attn.link/2MzaK9z | By ATTN: | Facebook

It's amazing what happens when boys are actually taught to respect women. Follow ATTN on Instagram: https://attn.link/2MzaK9z

www.facebook.com

 

[Spikefan]

I agree with teaching consent early but this case really has nothing to do with consent.

Spoiler: Warning

Based on the details there would have been no confusion over “does this mean yes or no”. It was about pure dominance and violent.

 

[Orm Irian]

I agree with teaching consent early but this case really has nothing to do with consent.

Spoiler: Warning

Based on the details there would have been no confusion over “does this mean yes or no”. It was about pure dominance and violent.

Part of teaching consent - well, of teaching consent well - is instilling a mindset in all kids, very early on, that acting in that way is not okay so that later on in life they're much less likely to do so. Both sexually and in other areas of life.

 

[overedge]

Part of teaching consent - well, of teaching consent well - is instilling a mindset in all kids, very early on, that acting in that way is not okay so that later on in life they're much less likely to do so. Both sexually and in other areas of life.

And, sorry to be cynical, it's a smart thing for organizations to do in case there is a situation of alleged assault by one of its participants. One of the areas that an investigator might look at is whether the organization had policies or mandatory training about appropriate behaviour and consent. If the organization has neither, it could possibly be liable for not ensuring a safe environment.

 

[overedge]

I agree with teaching consent early but this case really has nothing to do with consent.

Spoiler: Warning

Based on the details there would have been no confusion over “does this mean yes or no”. It was about pure dominance and violent.

To be clear, I agree that consent wasn't an issue here. I'm just suggesting that training around understanding consent would be a good thing to have for skaters.

 

[jiejie]

Hmm. Timeline is interesting. IIRC, Vanessa Crone was teaming up with Sorensen in early 2012, then very quickly (within a few months?), that seemed to abruptly end--for reasons I'm not sure were ever explained--and he went on to Laurence. Could be just a coincidence.

ETA: just to make it clear, I'm NOT suggesting Crone was the victim. Crone is Canadian, the victim identifies herself as American.

 

[jmtfti]

Vanessa and Nikolaj's partnership was announced in early May 2012, and then a week later plans for a "Sound of Music" SD. By June the split was announced.

 

[honey]

This article indicates he started skating with Crone in February 2012 and that she decided to retire “two and a half months later”.

https://www.insideskating.net/2017/...nikolaj-sorensen-were-in-it-for-the-long-haul

Laurence Fournier Beaudry and Nikolaj Sørensen: “We’re in it for the long haul”

By now, Laurence has calmed herself down, and it’s Nikolaj who becomes a bundle of nerves. Cause that’s their „thing” while heading to an event: a week before, she’s really stressed, „I know it’s like the last time you can fix something!”, and on the week of competition, „she’s fine, and I’m freakin

www.insideskating.net

 

[Willin]

First of all, we shouldn't be speculating about who the victim is.

That being said, this happened at a party. Presumably there's more than just him and his ice dance partner at this party. It could've been any number of young women. We don't even know if the failed partnership was at all related to it. Partnerships fail all the time in ice dance and pairs and while some try outs are longer than others many still fail for whatever reason.

Until we have reason to believe these things are related, we shouldn't bring that into this as it will only lead to unnecessary harassment or spotlight on Vanessa.

 

[fsfann]

This post will obviously not be a popular opinion, but I am quite frankly, surprised by the reactions here. As a few others have said, nothing has been proven, substantiated and he has not even faced a trial. Of course, the victim has been able to put out her story, and yes, I believe it is very possible that this could have happened. But to think he should be banned from competing in Nationals and Worlds based on an accusation from something that (may have) happened 10+ years ago seems bonkers to me.

Whatever happened to "you're innocent until proven guilty"?

 

[Debbie S]

And I'll add (to Willin's post) that there's no evidence that Vanessa was at this party. According to the article Honey posted, their partnership may have ended before then. And even if not, unless they were in CT for skating reasons (and they were at IAM, so that seems unlikely), Vanessa probably wouldn't have gone with him. Partners don't go on vacation with each other unless they are a couple off the ice. We know Nik used to train in CT, so it's likely he was there to hang out and see friends.

 

[Willin]

A couple of tweets by judge three about this latest case:

https://twitter.com/JudgeThree/status/1743031799289090061

"I believe survivors and I believe this survivor. I understand why she didn’t speak up at the time. That area of Connecticut and the three rinks involved is the Bermuda Triangle of sexual abuse in American skating with zero accountability for abusers."

https://twitter.com/JudgeThree/status/1743031801122050330

"Coaches and/or athletes credibly accused of sexual abuse or assault who spent significant time at those three rinks include Bob Young (banned), Tom Incantalupo (criminal charges&banned), Andrew Lavrik *(criminal charges&banned), Nikolai Morozov (), and multiple others."

*According to a tweet by TSL this guy still coaches in the area through some loophole.

Not that shocked. In some areas skating is normal people; in others its the same old boys club that protects their own. It seems almost all cases of this are the East Coast or CS. It's disgusting how well some are enabled.

To be clear, I agree that consent wasn't an issue here. I'm just suggesting that training around understanding consent would be a good thing to have for skaters.

I agree it's a good idea to teach consent, but I also think we have to teach young women to protect themselves.

It would be nice if we didn't have to, but the fact that I was sexually harassed by a guy in high school during a class talking about consent and "don't sexually harrass/assault" people tells me that not all guys are ready to learn it. Similarly, my college had mandatory annual consent and sexual harassment training for all staff/students - and the frats ran their own one for CYA legal reasons - and yet they were still a frequent occurrence on campus. Like many schools we had a "r*** frat" that was known to drug women. If guys are determined to sexually assault people, as it seems was the case here, the training won't matter.

But overall I think it would help some young men in a sport where touching partners and acting way too close with partners is very normalized. It's very creepy how touchy-feely some ice dance partnerships get both during and before/after programs. V/M certainly caused a storm and drummed up a huge amount of fame and fandom with how comfortable they were with each other, and it was hard to tell H/D broke up since they were so close after their programs.

 

[kirkbiggestfan]

Who could skate with Laurence? She is in terrific shape and could keep skating for a while. Andrew Poje comeback highly unlikely. Anybody at IAM? Wamsteeker? 2 years before the Olympics, the Canadian pool of skater is tiny. Maybe a Russian that hasn’t competed in a while?

 

[fsfann]

Who could skate with Laurence? She is in terrific shape and could keep skating for a while. Andrew Poje comeback highly unlikely. Anybody at IAM? Wamsteeker? 2 years before the Olympics, the Canadian pool of skater is tiny. Maybe a Russian that hasn’t competed in a while?

The pool is tiny? Umm... that's an interesting thought.

 

[Vagabond]

This post will obviously not be a popular opinion, but I am quite frankly, surprised by the reactions here. As a few others have said, nothing has been proven, substantiated and he has not even faced a trial. Of course, the victim has been able to put out her story, and yes, I believe it is very possible that this could have happened. But to think he should be banned from competing in Nationals and Worlds based on an accusation from something that (may have) happened 10+ years ago seems bonkers to me.

Whatever happened to "you're innocent until proven guilty"?

I think that we are heading into Tonya Harding territory here, at least as far as Canadian Nationals go. Unless there is some transparent and fair means of banning Fournier-Beaudry and Sørensen, they should be allowed to compete even if their result might be voided later.

(N.B.: This is an appropriate moment for anyone who wants to mention Michelle Kwan's silver medal to do so. )

As for subsequent international competitions, AFAIK, there is nothing requiring Skate Canada to send particular skaters, even the National Champions to those events. Skate Canada has passed over some of its age-eligible champions before. And if Fournier-Beaudry and Sørensen finish first at Nationals, I will eat my hat.

 

[danafan]

As for subsequent international competitions, AFAIK, there is nothing requiring Skate Canada to send particular skaters, even the National Champions to those events. Skate Canada has passed over some of its age-eligible champions before. And if Fournier-Beaudry and Sørensen finish first at Nationals, I will eat my hat.

Fournier-Beaudry and Sorensen have already been named to the 4CC team.

https://x.com/SkateCanada/status/1737172962246001145?s=20

 

[skategal]

Who could skate with Laurence? She is in terrific shape and could keep skating for a while. Andrew Poje comeback highly unlikely. Anybody at IAM? Wamsteeker? 2 years before the Olympics, the Canadian pool of skater is tiny. Maybe a Russian that hasn’t competed in a while?

Sales/Wamsteeker are entered at Nationals, competing together and engaged to be married.

I figured this thread could use some happy news.

 

[Dragonlady]

Yeah I know. Athletes who never tested positive are still guilty because of some "history".

Just because they've never tested positive doesn't mean they weren't being doped. Very few East German athletes tested positive but all admitted that they took the drugss they were given.

When the entire athletic system of a nation is focussed is cheating, ALL of their athletes are already suffering and being abused. Allowing athletes who are being drugged and abused to compete is condoning that abuse, and it's unfair to the clean athletes they're competing against.

I would think that fans of the athletes don't want them abused but you want the abuse to be allowed as long as they haven't been caught.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Wow, did not see this coming at all. I hope the victim is OK. I’m glad she gets to tell her story.

I also think we should revoke his PSOTY Title