Josh Duggar ('19 Kids and Counting') Arrested by Feds

Prancer

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I don't think religion makes anyone a pedophile, so I don't think it's significant that Josh is a Duggar. I think that adds a real dash of schadenfreude to the discussion for some, but that's about it.

What IS significant is how pedophiles and victims are treated within some religious organizations--and not just fundamentalist groups.
 

maatTheViking

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I would suppose that it is more the case that pedophiles are attracted to organisations and systems which give them power and access.

It's why there seems to be a disproportionate amount of pedophiles in things like religious groups and children's sports ... it's just where they can get access and get away with it. And also where they can manipulate thoughts and rules to accommodate their behaviours.

I think in deeply religious groups there's an extreme trust in religious leaders. The trust can seem foolish to outsiders but within that religious group to doubt that religious leader's integrity is unimaginable. I think that's why a lot of pedophiles seem attracted to this -- parents place complete trust in the religious leader.

and I think in addition - even if pedophiles are not seeking out such places (as Josh Duggar was born into it), it seems to me that in communities as these it is easier to hide for years? There is a strong sense of community and self-justice. A crime such as Josh Duggar's is attempted to be dealt with intra community. And this may be fine if it was a breach of moral that is not a crime (such as regular infidelity), but it doesn't work for things that are actual illegal activities. But the community will still try to shelter him as long as possible. And because everyone thinks everyone else in the community is moral and just, they don't see warning signs.


not of course that people like this don't pop up elsewhere, for they do, but I wonder if in these communities if it doesn't stay hidden more easily?

in all cases. I hope his wife and kids make it through, in which ever way they can, and I hope he gets charged and convicted of his crimes.
 

puglover

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One organization I am personally really disappointed and sad about is Boy Scouts. Reports claim that pedophilia has been epidemic. Our sons learned so much and had great times. My husband was their scout leader and he took our two oldest sons and their troop to the Canadian Jamboree '89 in PEI. It remains a great memory for each of them. They worked so hard to earn their Chief Scout and two of our grandsons in the US recently earned their Eagle Scout. No small feat. However, the organization is now so tarnished and they have filed for bankruptcy. I doubt any of our younger grandchildren will pursue it at all.
 

skatfan

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This is exactly what I was going to say. Religious organizations are a good place to hide if you are a pedophile.
Not as true in mainline religion. My denomination requires background checks, training, processes to discourage individual access to children, etc. Anyone with access to kids, volunteer or staff. We are mandated reporters in our tradition - so no self-dealing on this stuff. If your religious organization doesn't do this, they make themselves a big target for pedophiles. Note: this is because mainline protestant churches don't self-insure (see Roman Catholic), so to get insured, we HAVE to do this.
 

quartz

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From my own experiences, (and my understanding as a child, because as many of you know I high-tailed it out of my church community as soon as I turned 18), if a man commits sexual assault against a woman or child, the man is expected to say whoops, sorry, and the woman or child are expected, or rather pressured, into forgiving the man, and then shutting up completely, so that his life and reputation are not ruined. Protection and redemption of the man is the most important factor - the abused woman or child were merely the vessels used in order to lead the man to acknowlege his sins and become closer to God. Those who were abused likely sinned as well, anyways, and so this is a just punishment - there you go, the matter is done and settled in-house, no one else ever needs to know.
 
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skategal

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Not as true in mainline religion. My denomination requires background checks, training, processes to discourage individual access to children, etc. Anyone with access to kids, volunteer or staff. We are mandated reporters in our tradition - so no self-dealing on this stuff. If your religious organization doesn't do this, they make themselves a big target for pedophiles. Note: this is because mainline protestant churches don't self-insure (see Roman Catholic), so to get insured, we HAVE to do this.
Mine does too now but it wasn’t always this way.
 

Vagabond

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Not as true in mainline religion. My denomination requires background checks, training, processes to discourage individual access to children, etc. Anyone with access to kids, volunteer or staff. We are mandated reporters in our tradition - so no self-dealing on this stuff. If your religious organization doesn't do this, they make themselves a big target for pedophiles. Note: this is because mainline protestant churches don't self-insure (see Roman Catholic), so to get insured, we HAVE to do this.
And it doesn't do one whit of good if the potential employee or volunteer hasn't been caught or if the person is a member of the religious community but not an employee/volunteer. Also, not all pedophiles are child molesters. Some never have any physical contact or even communication with children. So while the procedures describe serve a purpose, they don't fully address any possible connection between pedophilia and religion.

It is complicated.
 

skatfan

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And it doesn't do one whit of good if the potential employee or volunteer hasn't been caught or if the person is a member of the religious community but not an employee/volunteer. Also, not all pedophiles are child molesters. Some never have any physical contact or even communication with children. So while the procedures describe serve a purpose, they don't fully address any possible connection between pedophilia and religion.

It is complicated.
I don't understand your comment on how one could be a member of the religious community but not an employee/volunteer. If you belong to our community and have access to the children (i.e. teacher, youth leader, choir director) you have to have the check. If you sit in the pew, no. I don't know of any organization that goes that far in screening people.

The background check is one of two levels. The safety procedures to follow for church activities are to never allow an adult to be alone with children, and to train all people with access to notice grooming behaviors by adults and to speak up. Again, I'm not sure what else any organization can do. I'm just noting that following these policies can do a lot to prevent abuse instead of cover it up, and are not tied to religion, since schools and other organizations do the same thing.

Pedophiles who don't have access or communication with children can be anywhere as well. Keeping them away from children prevents in person abuse. Now with child sexual abuse in images is a real problem (Josh Duggar) that cuts across all kinds of organizations - in this case, it was at his place of business, not at a church.
 

Vagabond

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I don't understand your comment on how one could be a member of the religious community but not an employee/volunteer.
If someone is a parishioner who attends Sunday morning services frequently, he is, in at least one sense, a member of that religious community.

Josh Duggar has previously admitted to groping minors and stands accused of receiving and possessing child pornography. I don't know whether he is currently employed by or volunteers for any church, but I would be hard pressed to say that he is not in any way, shape, or form a member of a religious community.
 

overedge

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Even in the very scripted and edited TLC show, it seemed like the Duggars mostly did business with and socialized with people either from the same faith or who used the same flat-earth patriarchal homeschooling program they did. So what could be considered their "religious community " could go way beyond who's in the congregation of the church they attend.
 

skatfan

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If someone is a parishioner who attends Sunday morning services frequently, he is, in at least one sense, a member of that religious community.
Most congregations have a more definitive definition of membership. Just attending a service doesn't make you a "member" but yes, one belongs in the wider sense. ]

I don't understand your point of differentiating between someone attending services vs. volunteer/staff with regard to child sexual abuse. It's true for almost any organization that it is possible for someone to be a pedophile (unknown to the congregation). So? If that organization is clear that it has policies and procedures to prevent and mitigate any abuse, how is that a "complicated" relationship.

Josh Duggar has previously admitted to groping minors and stands accused of receiving and possessing child pornography. I don't know whether he is currently employed by or volunteers for any church, but I would be hard pressed to say that he is not in any way, shape, or form a member of a religious community.
And so what? How is that different than pedophiles belonging to the Friends of the Library? Does that mean libraries have a complicated relationship to abuse as well?
 
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skatfan

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Even in the very scripted and edited TLC show, it seemed like the Duggars mostly did business with and socialized with people either from the same faith or who used the same flat-earth patriarchal homeschooling program they did. So what could be considered their "religious community " could go way beyond who's in the congregation of the church they attend.
That is a particular set of facts to this situation. If someone wants to link his car lot to religion, have at it. I am challenging @Vagabond's notion that a church that is clear about boundaries and has policies to prevent and mitigate child sexual abuse is still complicit if someone like a pedophile (unknown to the congregation) attends that church. I reject that notion.
 

ErikWilliam

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One organization I am personally really disappointed and sad about is Boy Scouts. Reports claim that pedophilia has been epidemic.
The Boy Scouts. Uggh. Their homophobic treatment towards gays in the organization was atrocious. No out gay man could volunteer and gay kids couldn't even participate.. They were saying "But what about the pedophiles????? Think of the chilrun!!!!!". Puh-leaze. That organization needed out gay men in there. We'd keep an eye on things and can spot a perv a mile away. Instead someone like me who is out and settled is forbidden. They'd rather have someone like my rapist to run the show. He was big in the church, had a wife and three kids and appeared like the "perfect" role model. But, if you play the religious game with them you have access to as many boys as you so desire. Ludicrous. So I say that the Boy Scouts should just file for bankruptcy or close their doors. Bigoted group. Good riddance.
 
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Vagabond

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That is a particular set of facts to this situation. If someone wants to link his car lot to religion, have at it. I am challenging @Vagabond's notion that a church that is clear about boundaries and has policies to prevent and mitigate child sexual abuse is still complicit if someone like a pedophile (unknown to the congregation) attends that church. I reject that notion.
I never said any such thing.
 

starrynight

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One organization I am personally really disappointed and sad about is Boy Scouts. Reports claim that pedophilia has been epidemic. Our sons learned so much and had great times. My husband was their scout leader and he took our two oldest sons and their troop to the Canadian Jamboree '89 in PEI. It remains a great memory for each of them. They worked so hard to earn their Chief Scout and two of our grandsons in the US recently earned their Eagle Scout. No small feat. However, the organization is now so tarnished and they have filed for bankruptcy. I doubt any of our younger grandchildren will pursue it at all.

I know, I was in Scouts myself and my experience of it as a child was great (although of course at that age I didn't know anything about the management or politics of it). Such a shame what happened to it and that bad people had to wreck the thing for everyone else. I think that boys (particularly in the past) are likely to be extremely hesitant to share details of abuse due to the stigma and confusion about what happened to them. So it would have assisted in concealing these people.

Although my Scout troop was mixed (but for a lot of the time I was the only girl) but there were two female scout leaders in my club. I recall that the leader of the scout group for the really young ones was a female too. Although I think my area was ahead of the times here and had Scouts mixed since 1988 and I don't think that happened in the USA until much later?

Oversight does help a lot. After the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse in Australia, I think a lot of people are much more aware of what has occurred in religions and are much more attuned to not dismiss children's complaints and are more aware of red flags. It would not be as easy now as it once was.

Same thing with some sports. The situation in the USA has led to an enquiry into Australian gymnastics that should hopefully have some positive outcomes.
 
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skatfan

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I never said any such thing.
This is what you said:

"So while the procedures describe serve a purpose, they don't fully address any possible connection between pedophilia and religion. It is complicated."

I've asked you what makes this a complicated relationship. You haven't answered despite my request in another post to do so. What did you mean? You can take a look at #post 131 for my responses on this.
 
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ErikWilliam

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If someone is a parishioner who attends Sunday morning services frequently, he is, in at least one sense, a member of that religious community.

Josh Duggar has previously admitted to groping minors and stands accused of receiving and possessing child pornography. I don't know whether he is currently employed by or volunteers for any church, but I would be hard pressed to say that he is not in any way, shape, or form a member of a religious community.
This seems to be a FauxNews talking point saying he "received" the porn. NO, Vag, he DOWNLOADED IT. God, are you planning to represent him or something? Sheesh. He didn't just "receive" it on his computer, he looked for it.
 
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once_upon

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From my own experiences, (and my understanding as a child, because as many of you know I high-tailed it out of my church community as soon as I turned 18), if a man commits sexual assault against a woman or child, the man is expected to say whoops, sorry, and the woman or child are expected, or rather pressured, into forgiving the man, and then shutting up completely, so that his life and reputation are not ruined. Protection and redemption of the man is the most important factor - the abused woman or child were merely the vessels used in order to lead the man to acknowlege his sins and become closer to God. Those who were abused likely sinned as well, anyways, and so this is a just punishment - there you go, the matter is done and settled in-house, no one else ever needs to know.
I dont think that is universal in the Calvinism sect as a whole?

 

Artistic Skaters

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Considering how the Duggar parents and the church handled his abuse of his sisters, I don't expect anything spectacular or life changing when it comes to their handling of this incident. It will probably be CYA as usual. The court has indicated if he gets bond he has to have a third party who will be responsible for him and he cannot have contact with his wife or kids, so at least the legal system will do something besides lock the victims in their rooms and blame them for tempting him.
 

skatfan

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Hence my very first sentence ”...and my understanding as a child”, as it pertained to what I saw/heard at that time, 45-50 years ago.
it is sad what used to be. Most churches have progressed on this issue (with a kick from insurance companies), and many focus their energies on the side of the abused now.
 

canbelto

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Josh had his bond hearing today. Go to reddit.com/r/duggarssnark if you want some insight into the charges. TRIGGER WARNING: charges are very graphic.
 

becca

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I have wondered if it is religion indoctrination/life experiences that is the major reason pedophiles are that way. Not that they are "born that way". I've read articles that state that abused children are more likely to repeat the cycle. But what if it is just the religious indoctrination that they can't get out of their heads? The youngest guy I have ever slept with was 18 or 19, and that was when I was 16. To me it seems obvious that the severe religiosity that his family practices had to be the reason. He wasn't allowed to even kiss his wife until they said their I do's. They could only hug side to side in their courtship. So his only opportunity to learn anything about females was through his sisters. It seems pretty obvious that it was his ultra-religious upbringing that turned him into what he is. Plus that as the oldest son he was treated like a god and superior to his sisters in all biblical ways. The abused sisters were at first reprimanded for enticing the male god of the brood. I think the youngest was five at the time. Sick stuff. And to think even after this all came out Michelle Duggar voiced RoboCalls during the elections opposing gay people adopting because of gays' 'perverted anti-family lifestyle'. Uggh. Oh well, hopefully the Huckabees won't finance a dream team defense to get him off, since they are close to the Duggars and think similarly. Sick people.
I really disagree with this. I want to make clear I personally find the whole no touching thing to be unhealthy.

Although if we want to talk unhealthy let’s point out that the problems with porn to. You have children seeing stuff at young ages they shouldn’t be seeing and it gets more and more unhealthy.

But most of them do marry pretty early which is how they deal with their urges.


There is nothing in that religion that supports molesting kids. none of his male siblings are abusers you have 18 kids bound to have a bad apple.

This kind of stuff is everywhere it’s in sports, it’s in schools it’s in religions. It’s everywhere it’s a sickness in our societies.
 

FiveRinger

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I'm going to be watching Emily D Baker on YouTube tonight. She's a lawyer who breaks down all of the celebrity legal stuff (reviews court docs) and has been doing a decent job keeping up with some of these high profile criminal cases. She's a former D.A. from somewhere in CA and I've been enjoying her. She planned on being at the hearing today via Zoom. I had no idea that anyone could access, but there you go....

I thought that I read that this asshat is being released AND will have unlimited access to his kids but won't live at home. I tried to read the Reddit thread, but I seriously broke my strand of pop beads I was clutching my pearls so hard....Covenant Eyes? WTF?!? Who knew such sh*t existed?

22 family members testifying about his p*rn addiction.... GTFO...that's the problem. His family defending his sorry ass. His wife drove him when he turned himself in. I guess that makes it better. Someone needs to lay hands on him, alright, and not the kind Jim Bob is talking about.
 
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There is nothing in that religion that supports molesting kids.
There may not be anything that directly says molesting kids is okay, but there is plenty of things that protect abusers and makes it hard for those that are abused to speak up. Sure, Josh may be an extreme case, but abuse within these circles is definitely tolerated and supported by their theology and culture.
 

FiveRinger

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There may not be anything that directly says molesting kids is okay, but there is plenty of things that protect abusers and makes it hard for those that are abused to speak up. Sure, Josh may be an extreme case, but abuse within these circles is definitely tolerated and supported by their theology and culture.
Jim Bob and Michelle knew that Josh was abusing kids years before they ever reported it to authorities. They protected him when he was a minor. Their own daughters lived in the house with their abuser with full f*cking consent of their parents. The officer that they reported to was a family friend that eventually went to prison on his own child a*use charges. Their behavior condones and protects abusers and it's horrific. Sacrificing girl children for male ones. But if they dealt with sexual activity and reproduction in a healthy manner I'd bet my left arm this wouldn't be as problematic.

Case in point, they forbid any intimacy before marriage other than hand-holding. Forget the semi-arranged marriages. But Michelle Duggar kept a calendar of her monthly cycle on the refrigerator. All of her children knew what it was. They knew she was pregnant, ovulating, etc as well as she did. What kind of sick sh*t is that?
 

Vagabond

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There is nothing in that religion that supports molesting kids.
While there is nothing in Fundamentalist and Evangelical Christianity that explicitly "supports molesting kids" per se, there is plenty in it that enables child molestation and pedophilia, just as there is in Roman Catholicism.


The causes are manifold: authoritarian leadership, twisted theology, institutional protection, obliviousness about the problem and, perhaps most shocking, a diminishment of the trauma sexual abuse creates — especially surprising in a church culture that believes strongly in the sanctity of sex. “Sexual abuse is the most underreported thing — both in and outside the church — that exists,” says Boz Tchividjian, a grandson of Billy Graham and a former Florida assistant state attorney....

Of the 166 people who said they had been victims of sexual abuse before or during their time at [Bob Jones University], half said school officials had actively discouraged them from going to the police. According to one anonymous respondent, after he finally told the police about years of sexual abuse by his grandfather, a BJU official admonished him that “[you] tore your family apart, and that’s your fault,” and “you love yourself more than you love God.” BJU officials declined to comment for this article.
 

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