Josh Duggar ('19 Kids and Counting') Arrested by Feds

rfisher

Let the skating begin
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I think that most people who have had no part of this world picture the women who live within it always fantasizing about escape. IME, this isn't true at all. Some do, of course, but there are more women than men in these religions and women are often the driving force--as was the case, I believe, with the Duggars, with Michelle being the one who became religious first.

Social pressure is definitely a factor, but that's definitely not all or even mostly what is involved.
ITA. Basically, if women didn't support these types of religions, both Christianity and Islam, they wouldn't exist in their current form. I have this discussion with my students each year when they discuss FGM which is done by women to women. There is long socioeconomic history and when you look deeply you see these events are much more complicated than you'd think. They seem patriarchal, but they are supported by women.
 

overedge

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Reading the first sentence, I immediately realized how the title of the original Duggar show appears unintentionally ironic now. I hope whoever he has abused this time around has a more supportive environment than his first victims in his own family found.

I hope that TLC is called to account in some way for normalizing this family for so many years. I know that 18 Kids And Counting was cancelled after it was revealed that Josh abused his sisters. But IIRC Jim Bob allegedly went to the network and persuaded them that viewers just loved to see the Duggars, so Counting On was developed as a way to keep the $$$$ coming in for Jim Bob to keep the franchise going without Josh being involved. Maybe this latest event will make the Duggar name so toxic that TLC will dump them permanently.
 

Spikefan

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I find their whole family situation completely abusive but because it’s done in the name of religion it’s allowed. Maybe trans children need to start a religion based on all these states that want to pass laws to remove them from their loving supportive parents. Yet this sick F has been surrounded by vulnerable children.
I feel completely sick for the children around him. Supposedly to be legitimate in these abuse rings you have to share your own footage. 🤮
 

ErikWilliam

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499
This was my first assumption when his arrest broke out. I was hoping it had nothing to do with actual sexual abuse of children. So, good, he didn't harm any child. But child porn is not a victimless crime at all. If people responsible for child porn (I understand it's not "porn" it's sex abuse with a minor) didn't think there was a market for people like Josh Duggar, these children wouldn't be sexually abused, or at least, not for money. These children in pics or vids ARE victims.

Whenever I see these out of the ordinary religious people who really are about calling attention to others' sins (like my original sin, which is being gay) I get tense and anxious and feel defeated and a loser. So I think that I have a lens into these people like Duggar who hide behind religion and are totally enabled by others who won't break their aura of being perfect Christians. I know religious fundamentalism and the long-lasting emotional damage they do to people.

I hope that Anna and her children can find a way to get away from the Duggar family. The Duggars enabled his repeated sexual abuse of children. I would not trust Josh with any of his kids, including sons. He needs to finally be put in prison, and let the dudes there show him what his victims felt. It is just such a sad sad situation. I'm really affected by this. Not just due to the sexual abuse issue, but the religion abuse which for me is worse.

**Edited for normalcy and to focus on the victims here
 
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Coco

Rotating while Russian!
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@ErikWilliam power to the chardonnay. Sending love and peace your way. I was raised in a 'covenant community,' the very phrase makes me recoil, and the carnage is never ending for myself and my peers.

People are drawn to these churches because they are coming out of so much pain themselves. But their own history of personal pain makes them so vulnerable and willing to swear blind loyalty to whoever can make the pain stop. They get manipulated to the point where they feel responsible or guilty if they so much as acknowledge wrongdoing by leadership or their peers. The end result is that these communities just are the most fertile ground for predators.
 

ilovepaydays

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11,130
But where is she to go?

That's very kind, but I have always thought that there needs to be some sort of organization to help women who want to leave religions like this, as you aren't just leaving your husband or family--you have to leave EVERYONE and start out with no support system, no friends, no one to turn to, no money, no nothing. It's hard enough when you are on your own, but it's pretty close to impossible with all those kids.

Shunning is a really powerful control system.

Somewhat related - Leah Remini and Mike Rinder, after doing “Scientology and the Aftermath” (just now available on Netflix - I highly recommend watching it if you want to understand how religious groups like this work), started an organization to help those who want to leave Scientology be able to start over their lives. Many who want to leave (especially if they were in the Sea Org) stay in because they don’t want to lose their family members and struggle to find employment or a place to live.

Remini and Rinder also have a podcast (Scientology: Fair Game) that I highly recommend. It’s Scientology focused, of course, but they interview experts and former members of other similarly behaving religious groups as well.
 
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becca

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I don’t think their attitude is Mainstream Christianity. I mean the Duggar’s are pretty extreme no kissing no time alone.

I think one of the biggest issues is not encouraging women to be self sufficient!

it’s really important for a female to be able to hold a job and have job skills.
 

Japanfan

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ITA. Basically, if women didn't support these types of religions, both Christianity and Islam, they wouldn't exist in their current form. I have this discussion with my students each year when they discuss FGM which is done by women to women. There is long socioeconomic history and when you look deeply you see these events are much more complicated than you'd think. They seem patriarchal, but they are supported by women.
Women participate in community practices/patriarchal community practices because it gives them membership in the community. Even when those practices are questionable, as is the case with FGM, which causes harm to so many girls. Many women do accept that the roles assigned to them in community are acceptable, having never seen anyone question them.

Girls and women in tight-knit communities, which are often closed to the outside world, commonly lack the resources, skills and knowledge to question community practices - let alone leave the community to pursue life elsewhere.

In fact, people in most societies accept community practices. Although people in individualist cultures are more likely to question those practices, are they are more likely to be encouraged to think critically than people in collectivist cultures.

However, when a collectivist society does rise up, it can effect change quickly (and sometimes violently).
 

MsZem

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He needs to finally be put in prison, and let the dudes there show him what his victims felt.
No, never this. The sentiment is understandable, but this is not an appropriate punishment under any circumstances. I've written in other discussions here - no matter how abhorrent the person involved, incarcerated people should be penalized by the state, not by fellow incarcerated persons, guards acting outside their authority, etc.

It is just such a sad sad situation. I'm really affected by this. Not just due to the sexual abuse issue, but the religion abuse which for me is worse.
I'm so sorry. It's good that Josh Duggar is finally facing justice, but this has to bring back a lot of unwelcome memories and feelings for survivors of both types of abuse.
 
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PRlady

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But where is she to go?

That's very kind, but I have always thought that there needs to be some sort of organization to help women who want to leave religions like this, as you aren't just leaving your husband or family--you have to leave EVERYONE and start out with no support system, no friends, no one to turn to, no money, no nothing. It's hard enough when you are on your own, but it's pretty close to impossible with all those kids.

Shunning is a really powerful control system.
Israel has a group I will volunteer for when I retire to help ultra-Orthodox who want to leave. They need enough education to get a real job, better Hebrew or English, training on the internet, clothes, etc. I guess Anna’s English is fine but I would bet some of that kind of support would be useful.
 

Vagabond

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Israel has a group I will volunteer for when I retire to help ultra-Orthodox who want to leave. They need enough education to get a real job, better Hebrew or English, training on the internet, clothes, etc. I guess Anna’s English is fine but I would bet some of that kind of support would be useful.
You probably know this, but others here may not. There are similar groups in other countries, such as Footsteps in the United States and GesherEU in Europe. Being somewhat familiar with these groups, I am a bit surprised that there doesn't seem to be an equivalent for Fundamentalist Christians.
 

canbelto

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Israel has a group I will volunteer for when I retire to help ultra-Orthodox who want to leave. They need enough education to get a real job, better Hebrew or English, training on the internet, clothes, etc. I guess Anna’s English is fine but I would bet some of that kind of support would be useful.

In the US some reform and conservative temples also have outreach efforts to help those trying to leave abusive/dangerous situtations in the Haredi community. But it's hard, depressing work. My friend has some horrific field stories, especially about LGBT people trying to leave.
 

quartz

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Part of Anna’s faith appears to be submitting to the dominance of men. If she is going to get out of this, that part of her faith will have to go. Otherwise her marriage will just be an endless loop of forgiveness until the next despicable thing her husband does.
 

starrynight

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There's a Christian group that helps spouses leave domestic violence situations called Give Her Wings. This is the kind of group that someone like Anna would probably find more palatable, because it's not asking her to leave her faith.

It probably doesn’t help that a lot of the voices Anna would hear on social networks are extremely opposed to everything about her life and faith. It might seem like an all or nothing equation to her.

But there’s millions and millions of people around the world who have faith in religion and find the community and spiritual focus enriching and positive.

It’s just that she’s in a really dangerous sect of it.
 

skatfan

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You probably know this, but others here may not. There are similar groups in other countries, such as Footsteps in the United States and GesherEU in Europe. Being somewhat familiar with these groups, I am a bit surprised that there doesn't seem to be an equivalent for Fundamentalist Christians.
There are some for fundamentalist Mormons (the polygamous ones).
 

Prancer

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Many women do accept that the roles assigned to them in community are acceptable, having never seen anyone question them.
Except for the ones who convert, like Michelle Duggar and many others.

And really, I have never known anyone so sheltered that they never did any questioning themselves.
 

Japanfan

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Except for the ones who convert, like Michelle Duggar and many others.

And really, I have never known anyone so sheltered that they never did any questioning themselves.

Those who convert are another thing. I remember reading about a woman who adopted Islam and flew half way around the world for FGM - not quite sure why, given that it is not a requirement for Islam.

I do think there are people so sheltered they never do any questioning. Think of all the people who have heavy religious upbringings and never questioning their religion or the religious texts they follow. Strict/closed cultures tend to discourage questioning, as it is a threat to the status quo. I think those who question are a minority. Though of course when one does, it encourages others to do the same. For example, I read about a number of women in an American Mennonite community who had gotten out. Even so, they were a minority in their community.
 

Prancer

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Think of all the people who have heavy religious upbringings and never questioning their religion or the religious texts they follow.

As I said, I can't. I think it's very rare. The inevitability of questioning is the reason for both so many restrictions on relationships outside such faiths and for so many programs for teenagers who stray. It's why many Amish communities have rumspringa. It's why religious organizations recognize and offer counsel for crises of faith. It's why there is so much social pressure to toe the line.

Perhaps you know a lot of people who have had heavy religious upbringings who never had questions, but I never have.
 

puglover

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Although his religion and his interpretation of it may be big contributing factors to the misdeeds of Josh Duggar, I feel it is an over simplification to not acknowledge that his presumed actions are not restricted to social status, lifestyle, or religion. My oldest daughter called me last week to say she had gotten a frantic call from a lifelong friend. This girl, B, a lovely, sweet, girl - now woman and mother - married a destructive narcissist. He has been arrested for sexually abusing two of their girls - one troubled foster child they adopted and their oldest daughter. He then threatened the girls about telling so he is facing major jail time. We have been close friends of B's parents for decades, raised our families together, and the heartache they have experienced in watching their daughter appear to submit all conscious thought to him has been unimaginable. For the last many years, he has controlled all outside contact of his wife, has not allowed her to have really any relationship with anyone else and has forbidden any visits at all between the children and their grandparents. He actually called the police on his MIL and had/attempted to have? her charged with elder abuse when her aged mother, who lived with her and she lovingly cared for, stopped eating in the last days of her life. Somehow, B appeared to at least go along with this and many more tragic decisions. She is reaching out now and my daughter went down and stayed the weekend, hoping this was it, but she told me he was still calling B from jail and most of her concern seemed to be for him and not for what her family was facing. We spoke with her parents who, although very troubled for their granddaughters, think this is what it will take to help B see sense. It is sounding like that is unlikely. His background is one of neglect and very loose family relationships and from the beginning he has been manipulative and controlling. It is harder to understand B because she has a wonderful father and grew up in a secure, loving home. In my past life, I was a family support worker, and sadly I watched a number of women make disastrous choices for themselves and their children for the "love" of a lousy man.
 

taf2002

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I was raised in a Southern Baptist home with the emphasis on the word southern. Sex was seen as something for marriage but it wasn't depicted in my home as bad or shameful. But OMG, the racial bias! Lucky for me my parents weren't overtly racist so I didn't realize till I was in HS that they were just marginally better than most in that they would never hurt another human no matter what they were thinking. So I was old enough that I could make up my own mind & that racist thinking disgusted me. The ones in my family who still practice the tenets of Southern Baptist are severely homophobic & racial, all in the name of "what the Bible teaches". But there are 2 maybe 3 within my family who have the same proclivities as Josh. IDK if the religion has anything to do with it. I say maybe 3 because there is one bro n law that I suspect but has never been caught.
 

ErikWilliam

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The ones in my family who still practice the tenets of Southern Baptist are severely homophobic & racial, all in the name of "what the Bible teaches". But there are 2 maybe 3 within my family who have the same proclivities as Josh. IDK if the religion has anything to do with it. I say maybe 3 because there is one bro n law that I suspect but has never been caught.
I have wondered if it is religion indoctrination/life experiences that is the major reason pedophiles are that way. Not that they are "born that way". I've read articles that state that abused children are more likely to repeat the cycle. But what if it is just the religious indoctrination that they can't get out of their heads? The youngest guy I have ever slept with was 18 or 19, and that was when I was 16. To me it seems obvious that the severe religiosity that his family practices had to be the reason. He wasn't allowed to even kiss his wife until they said their I do's. They could only hug side to side in their courtship. So his only opportunity to learn anything about females was through his sisters. It seems pretty obvious that it was his ultra-religious upbringing that turned him into what he is. Plus that as the oldest son he was treated like a god and superior to his sisters in all biblical ways. The abused sisters were at first reprimanded for enticing the male god of the brood. I think the youngest was five at the time. Sick stuff. And to think even after this all came out Michelle Duggar voiced RoboCalls during the elections opposing gay people adopting because of gays' 'perverted anti-family lifestyle'. Uggh. Oh well, hopefully the Huckabees won't finance a dream team defense to get him off, since they are close to the Duggars and think similarly. Sick people.
 

starrynight

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I would suppose that it is more the case that pedophiles are attracted to organisations and systems which give them power and access.

It's why there seems to be a disproportionate amount of pedophiles in things like religious groups and children's sports ... it's just where they can get access and get away with it. And also where they can manipulate thoughts and rules to accommodate their behaviours.
 

skategal

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I would suppose that it is more the case that pedophiles are attracted to organisations and systems which give them power and access.

It's why there seems to be a disproportionate amount of pedophiles in things like religious groups and children's sports ... it's just where they can get access and get away with it. And also where they can manipulate thoughts and rules to accommodate their behaviours.
This is exactly what I was going to say. Religious organizations are a good place to hide if you are a pedophile.
 

canbelto

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I would suppose that it is more the case that pedophiles are attracted to organisations and systems which give them power and access.

It's why there seems to be a disproportionate amount of pedophiles in things like religious groups and children's sports ... it's just where they can get access and get away with it. And also where they can manipulate thoughts and rules to accommodate their behaviours.

I think in deeply religious groups there's an extreme trust in religious leaders. The trust can seem foolish to outsiders but within that religious group to doubt that religious leader's integrity is unimaginable. I think that's why a lot of pedophiles seem attracted to this -- parents place complete trust in the religious leader.
 

Vagabond

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:rolleyes:

There is no evidence that any Josh Duggar's eighteen siblings is a pedophile, so the explanations offered in the past few posts aren't very persuasive.
The causes of pedophilia (and other paraphilias) are not known.
 

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