ISU has cancelled 2021 Europeans, ISU Grand Prix Final, World Junior Synchro; Stockholm Worlds still on for now

tony

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We really cannot know what the fall will be like. We can hope, based on vaccination projections, that it will be better. But if it’s not, then you’re getting into questions about whether the Winter Olympics will happen, which makes the whole thing somewhat moot.

Figure skating is at least in an easier position than summer sports in that participants are overwhelmingly from rich countries in North America, Europe and East Asia that are on the leading edge of vaccination.

The ISU has to make decisions based on whether it’s safe now, and it should be applying the same standards that lead to the cancellation of most of the rest of the season already. Health and safety is particularly important when large numbers of the competitors are children.
And to your last point- there have been international sports happening without issue, there have been national sports happening in countries with a high number of cases that still require travel, etc. The ISU is 100% working with Federations to make this happen, and while I can't say what they are officially communicating to Canada, I don't see how Skate Canada would be left out but other countries would be part of these talks. They aren't going to run a competition, just like all these other sports and events happening, unless they feel they have the regulations and safety precautions in place.

And 'we cannot know what the fall will be like' - that's my point about not making this the Olympic qualifier, though. If all nations ultimately agree to to the conditions put out by the ISU and send their skaters to Worlds, there will still be people coming right back here to say that the Feds were pushed into a corner and did something they didn't want to do. We saw it already with the P/C withdrawal and this supposed 'Well now everyone is going to withdraw' 'Now France is going to push to have Worlds canceled' 'Now this definitely can't be the qualifier'.

As things change quickly (and you can see in Canada how fast things shifted in the wrong direction), things being in terrible shape in September doesn't mean they will be equally bad in February. But the longer the ISU holds off for 'better conditions' like the poster earlier who said international travel would be safe with the vaccines in just two countries, then the more they are risking being in a much bigger predicament for the Olympics.
 

skategal

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Or, as a poster straight-up said above, since the majority of the US and Canada is supposed to be vaccinated by September (and because of that, 'International travel should be safe'), should we just wait around for that while other countries may not be in that situation at al

But the longer the ISU holds off for 'better conditions' like the poster earlier who said international travel would be safe with the vaccines in just two countries, then the more they are risking being in a much bigger predicament for the Olympics.
That's not what I meant at all and if it came across that way I apologize.

I meant that I don't know what is happening in other countries with vaccination, but the ISU, who has always had a Fall qualifier, shouldn't need to change it based on Canada or USA because we should be able to go then if we can't go in March.

(And no, I don't think the USA will pull their team but with this crazy year, who knows what could happen.)

Also, I'd like to remind everyone that, despite Mikey Slipchuck talking about not sending skaters to Worlds, if Canada has pulled an athlete from international competition due to YKW, I'm certainly not aware of it.

So maybe Skate Canada will be first?

We will have to wait and see but the precedent is not there yet.
 

Colonel Green

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As things change quickly (and you can see in Canada how fast things shifted in the wrong direction), things being in terrible shape in September doesn't mean they will be equally bad in February. But the longer the ISU holds off for 'better conditions' like the poster earlier who said international travel would be safe with the vaccines in just two countries, then the more they are risking being in a much bigger predicament for the Olympics.
That we don’t know how things will be in the future is no justification to just do it now when conditions are already identifiably bad.

There are, if push came to shove, proposals to allocate spots based on world standings, etc. It doesn’t intrinsically have to be done mainly through a qualifying competition. But as it stands, even having an Olympics is contingent on things improving, so there’s no reason to assume alternative qualification methods might not be viable if things don’t improve.
 

skategal

Bunny mama
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7,659
Listening to PM Trudeau now.

Nothing announced should impede athletes going to a competition unless it is in a sun destination (LOL!)

Flights to Sun destinations cancelled until April 30th.

More restrictions on entering the country:

Proof of negative test results upon entering Canada

Then another PCR test to be conducted at airport and then mandatory quarantine for 3 days at hotel at your own expense while waiting your results.

Negative test you can continue your quarantine at home.

Positive test you go to a government approved location to complete your quarantine and have follow-up testing.

So bit of a pain for returning athletes but I'm sure they would think it's worth it to compete.
 

kwanfan1818

RIP D-10
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Especially with the new rules to have to qualify additional Olympics spots at Nebelhorn for any spot for which a skater hasn't made the free, and given that a fixed number of Olympic spots are allocated at Worlds, this should mean more single spots earned at Worlds that don't have to be earned at Nebelhorn, ie, going farther down the list than in the past.

They could, conceivably, allow any country that doesn't send a team to Stockholm to try to earn the number of spots to which they had been entitled for 2020 Worlds. I may be missing the incentive to pull a team entirely. Using Canada as an example, I don't see the odds of earning three spots in Ice Dance of five open spots at Nebelhorn is any greater than trying to hold three in Stockholm. Using Japan as an example, they are just as likely to earn three in singles at Nebelhorn (of six open spots) as in Stockholm.

I think they will go forward with Worlds if one or two of the major Feds decides not to sent teams. What is the ISU-related downside of submitting entries by March 1 and then deciding at the last minute to pull them because of current cv concerns?
 

tony

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That we don’t know how things will be in the future is no justification to just do it now when conditions are already identifiably bad.

There are, if push came to shove, proposals to allocate spots based on world standings, etc. It doesn’t intrinsically have to be done mainly through a qualifying competition. But as it stands, even having an Olympics is contingent on things improving, so there’s no reason to assume alternative qualification methods might not be viable if things don’t improve.
But we are going to agree to disagree that even though conditions may not be ideal, they are not out of the question as other sports have gone on without problem and people are traveling internationally and domestically without a severe danger. I know flight attendants that have been working since day one and have never tested positive, as an example. There is a way to put precautions in place and stay reasonably safe without just feeling the worst will happen by default -- not to say that something can't happen.

And I proposed from almost day one the idea to base the Olympic spots off of seasons best scores in the fall (and it was promptly shut down by a few posters that wanted to carry on with the 'but it can't happen at all' talks). But that, too, requires a certain amount of competitions to take place and a lot more travel as I don't think a seasons best should be based off one potentially skewed competition. I wouldn't be in favor of using world standings from 2019/part of 2020 in any situation.

Member federations talk amongst themselves all the time. It isn't just a Federation ---> ISU line of communication. If countries really were feeling leery about Worlds, we would or will hear about it. But as I've said a few times now, there was a strong push initially by people trying to convince themselves that France was going to withdraw their entire team and/or ask Worlds to be canceled, and I know as fact that this is not right and France has every intention of moving forward with the event under the standard ISU qualifying procedures. And now I just feel no matter what happens, there will be people convinced that countries like Canada were forced into such a situation although the skaters say they want to compete.

I'm going to late ETA here- from the wording of the communication, the ISU knows they may have to consider a qualifying plan B. It's out in the open, Federations can talk amongst each other and decide what the best move is (or what their country allows), and we will see. But I still don't get the same impression that anyone will be forced to put themselves into some kind of extreme danger.
 
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MacMadame

Staying at home
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Try to move it to April or May? In which case--if it doesn't happen--you have ruined the athletes' ability to prepare for a fall qualifier.
No, you absolutely will not have done that. Worlds has already been postponed to April once before and nothing bad happened.

These are highly trained and highly motivated athletes. They can deal with a postponement of 1 or 2 months.

When will it be enough for some of you? Can we have literally one good day? Ever?
Nope. For some people here, Worlds can't happen at all no matter what. 🤷‍♀️

Because apparently, the people putting on Worlds are complete idiots who don't know how to take basic precautions and a skating competition is the same as treating YKW patients all day for days on end. :rolleyes:

This is how I look at it:

We know that skating competitions can be put on safely. We have literally seen it. We also know that YKW cases are going down all over the world as (a) vaccines are starting to be delivered and (b) weather warms up in the Northern Hemisphere (where the event is being held). There is no reason to think that things will be worse in 6 weeks; it should only get better.

On top of that, we have seen that the ISU didn't want to cancel Worlds last year and waited until the local government forbid it and seems on the same course this year. And we have seen that Sweden is reluctant to forbid things due to YKW.

Therefore, I see no reason to think Worlds will be canceled. At worst, it will be postponed but even that doesn't seem as likely as it seemed even a month ago.

I also think some fans have this idea that things just have to be 100% fair for all athlethes, but that's just not going to happen this year.
Not just 100% fair but 100% safe. Both of which are impossible, of course.

Flights to Sun destinations cancelled until April 30th.
What is a Sun destination??
 

Sylvia

Off season is club competition season!
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65,012
What is a Sun destination??

Canada's main airlines have agreed to cancel service to the Caribbean and Mexico and the federal government is introducing new mandatory quarantine rules as it tries to discourage international travel.

This morning, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau announced Air Canada, WestJet, Sunwing and Air Transat have agreed to suspend service to some sun destinations starting this Sunday until April 30, and will be making arrangements with their customers who are in these regions now to organize flights home.

"With the challenges we currently face with *********-19, both here at home and abroad, we all agree that now is just not the time to be flying," said Trudeau outside his home at Rideau Cottage.

Starting next week, all international passenger flights, including from the U.S., will land at the Vancouver, Toronto, Calgary and Montreal airports.

The prime minister said as soon as possible the government will be introducing mandatory PCR testing at the airport for people returning to Canada, on top of the pre-boarding test already required.

Travellers will then have to wait up to three days at an approved hotel for their test results, at their own expense, which Trudeau said is expected to be more than $2,000.

Those with a negative test will then be able to finish their 14-day quarantine at home, with increased surveillance.

"By putting in place these tough measures now, we can look forward to a better time, when we can plan those vacations," said Trudeau.

He also said that, in the coming weeks, Canada will begin requiring non-essential travellers to show a negative test before entry at the land border with the U.S.


ETA:

For those interested, I've summarized the ISU Council's latest decisions in this new thread: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...schedule-beijing-test-event-announced.108032/
 
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skategal

Bunny mama
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7,659
It's a little known fact that Prime Minister Trudeau has been consulting with Philip Hersh on stopping Worlds.:sekret:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol::lol:

Although he probably has no idea he did it, PM Trudeau just made it a whole lot easier to send a team because he just eliminated the risk that athletes could spread YKW when they come back to Canada.

Now the only risk left (which is not small by any means) is the risk to the athletes themselves.

The athletes will need to decide if this is a risk they are willing to take on.
 

RoseRed

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1,768
No, you absolutely will not have done that. Worlds has already been postponed to April once before and nothing bad happened.

These are highly trained and highly motivated athletes. They can deal with a postponement of 1 or 2 months.


Nope. For some people here, Worlds can't happen at all no matter what. 🤷‍♀️

Because apparently, the people putting on Worlds are complete idiots who don't know how to take basic precautions and a skating competition is the same as treating YKW patients all day for days on end. :rolleyes:

This is how I look at it:

We know that skating competitions can be put on safely. We have literally seen it. We also know that YKW cases are going down all over the world as (a) vaccines are starting to be delivered and (b) weather warms up in the Northern Hemisphere (where the event is being held). There is no reason to think that things will be worse in 6 weeks; it should only get better.

On top of that, we have seen that the ISU didn't want to cancel Worlds last year and waited until the local government forbid it and seems on the same course this year. And we have seen that Sweden is reluctant to forbid things due to YKW.

Therefore, I see no reason to think Worlds will be canceled. At worst, it will be postponed but even that doesn't seem as likely as it seemed even a month ago.


Not just 100% fair but 100% safe. Both of which are impossible, of course.


What is a Sun destination??
Now, I'm not sure what the right thing is with regards to Worlds, but that's an objective silly statement to make. We have multiple new strains with community spread going on that are much more contagious. There's reason to be hopeful that things will be better by March, but to act as though that's guaranteed is not in line with the current facts.

And in terms of weather, there's a pretty big difference between full on summer and February, at least where I am. We regularly get snow in March in many Canadian cities, for example. So not sure that's going to be making a big difference in the next few weeks.
 

tony

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Some more (small) details from behind the scenes:

-TES will be still valid of course from the 2020 season, and also any events early-on (Europe) that fulfilled the criteria of an international event. So Loena Hendrickx has her scores from an event in Budapest earlier this season, but cases like Vincent Zhou and Knierim/Frazier do not. AFAIK at this point, pulling back numbers from 2018/2019 season is not in the question for having achieved minimums.
-In the case of skaters not having attained it (K/F being new, Zhou because he's 0.18 short from 2020), the ISU has been floating the idea of having the technical committee review a submitted video and then determining whether they have achieved the level/score needed. I don't know how many other cases there are, but this is at least one option that has gained traction.
-As of now, seems to be no plan to adjust the TES scores up/down from what they were- but doesn't mean that won't change. Since there were so few actual competitions that counted towards the TES mins this season and the ISU knows what the rosters would've been at last season, I don't really think they will change it.
-Skate Canada as of now seems committed to sending a team, barring travel/domestic issues (also somewhat backed up by the protocols they published).
-No real details are known from Japan yet.

This is just stuff that I'm hearing from some of the more in-the-know people, so of course it can change.
 

missing

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Philip Hersh, a man with a mask and a mission.


Philip Hersh

@olyphil

·
2h

3 / To clarify point 2. There are moments my mask slips, and I push it up soon as realize it. But there are people who clearly make no effort to do that. So you give everyone one warning on mask slip. If they have no mask on face or disregard social distance, no warning - out.
 

Karen-W

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6,127
Some more (small) details from behind the scenes:

-TES will be still valid of course from the 2020 season, and also any events early-on (Europe) that fulfilled the criteria of an international event. So Loena Hendrickx has her scores from an event in Budapest earlier this season, but cases like Vincent Zhou and Knierim/Frazier do not. AFAIK at this point, pulling back numbers from 2018/2019 season is not in the question for having achieved minimums.
-In the case of skaters not having attained it (K/F being new, Zhou because he's 0.18 short from 2020), the ISU has been floating the idea of having the technical committee review a submitted video and then determining whether they have achieved the level/score needed. I don't know how many other cases there are, but this is at least one option that has gained traction.
-As of now, seems to be no plan to adjust the TES scores up/down from what they were- but doesn't mean that won't change. Since there were so few actual competitions that counted towards the TES mins this season and the ISU knows what the rosters would've been at last season, I don't really think they will change it.
-Skate Canada as of now seems committed to sending a team, barring travel/domestic issues (also somewhat backed up by the protocols they published).
-No real details are known from Japan yet.

This is just stuff that I'm hearing from some of the more in-the-know people, so of course it can change.

The video submission and review by the technical committee seems like a reasonable solution for skaters who haven't achieved the minimums. There are some skaters/teams who clearly have the ability to meet the minimum technical standards and would have done so had there been the normal fall season.
 

gkelly

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I guess technically they never have to be inside.

They can just move their events between northern and southern hemispheres to wherever is having the best spring/summer weather. :lol:

They still need to go inside the vehicles that take them to the other hemisphere, and most likely inside hotels or something of the sort to sleep when they get there.

My assumption is under ordinary circumstances, the ISU would have no doubts in late January about which countries would be entering their teams for a late March Worlds.

Not strictly true. Even in normal years, some federations might have a skater or team they would like to send, pending recovery from injury, achieving technical minimum scores at Four Continents or another minor February event, issues with funding or visas or release from a previous federation, etc. If they don't have another skater whom they could send instead, then they won't know for sure whether they will be able to enter their skater until those issues are or are not resolved by the entry deadline. Which is not in late January.
 

missing

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They still need to go inside the vehicles that take them to the other hemisphere, and most likely inside hotels or something of the sort to sleep when they get there.



Not strictly true. Even in normal years, some federations might have a skater or team they would like to send, pending recovery from injury, achieving technical minimum scores at Four Continents or another minor February event, issues with funding or visas or release from a previous federation, etc. If they don't have another skater whom they could send instead, then they won't know for sure whether they will be able to enter their skater until those issues are or are not resolved by the entry deadline. Which is not in late January.
I know nothing about the process. But here's my for instance:

The USFS knows it can send 3 male skaters to Worlds. It may not know if Vincent Zhou will have his required minimums. So they inform the ISU that they will be sending 3 male skaters to Worlds, and then they determine between late January and March if Vincent Zhou will be one of them (if not, they would send one of the alternates).

In either case, the ISU knows 3 American men will be competing.

Presumably there are times when a country's federation doesn't make use of the maximum number of skaters they're allowed, and that could be a last minute decision (if a skater already assigned withdraws at the very last minute due to injury and there's no time to assign another skater from that federation). But my assumption is for the most part the ISU knows the number of entrants each federation intends to send by late January, even if the names of those entrants might not yet have been announced.

This year there could be concern that a federation might decide not to send any of its skaters and that that decision might not have been made by late January. If the ISU does have that concern, they might make mention of a March 1 deadline for "actual entries."

All those "could"s and "might"s obviously indicate that I'm making this up as I go along. My guess is (another could or might) that the ISU is also making things up as it goes along.

And while I'm at it, it's ridiculous that the reigning Worlds Bronze Medalist doesn't have required minimums. Good grief.
 

gkelly

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My for instance is a federation that has ONE skater good enough to send to Worlds. IF that skater is able to go. Which they will have a better idea of on March 1 than on January 29. And which will make the difference between whether or not they can send a team at all.

I'm not talking about the big federations.

But if there are several such federations, it can make a significant difference to the size of the event.

In a normal year.

This year, of course, there are many more reasons (primarily health of the skaters and travel restrictions affecting the whole country) why federations of all sizes might not be sure whether they will be able to send their best skaters, or whether they will be able to send anyone at all.
 

Karen-W

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And while I'm at it, it's ridiculous that the reigning Worlds Bronze Medalist doesn't have required minimums. Good grief.
Yeah, it's crazy. It was discussed in the US Nats Men's FP pbp - last season Vincent wasn't in optimal shape at the US Classic in September, then he spent the fall at Brown and then injured so he pulled out of his 2 GPs, then he didn't attend 4CCs because he was still getting back into shape and focused on Worlds. The assumption was he would get his minimums there or that the fall wouldn't be what it's been. So, yeah, no minimums for him and something no one could really foresee.
 

olympic

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9,895
Some more (small) details from behind the scenes:

-TES will be still valid of course from the 2020 season, and also any events early-on (Europe) that fulfilled the criteria of an international event. So Loena Hendrickx has her scores from an event in Budapest earlier this season, but cases like Vincent Zhou and Knierim/Frazier do not. AFAIK at this point, pulling back numbers from 2018/2019 season is not in the question for having achieved minimums.
-In the case of skaters not having attained it (K/F being new, Zhou because he's 0.18 short from 2020), the ISU has been floating the idea of having the technical committee review a submitted video and then determining whether they have achieved the level/score needed. I don't know how many other cases there are, but this is at least one option that has gained traction.
-As of now, seems to be no plan to adjust the TES scores up/down from what they were- but doesn't mean that won't change. Since there were so few actual competitions that counted towards the TES mins this season and the ISU knows what the rosters would've been at last season, I don't really think they will change it.
-Skate Canada as of now seems committed to sending a team, barring travel/domestic issues (also somewhat backed up by the protocols they published).
-No real details are known from Japan yet.

This is just stuff that I'm hearing from some of the more in-the-know people, so of course it can change.
This is just nuts. Can't believe the ISU would be unmoved on the rules considering YKW. I have to believe the ISU would allow for an alternative like submittal of a video because the events of the last year has been unequaled and insane. These chaotic events are not the skater's fault, so I am hopeful that Zhou and K/F can get to Worlds. Question - did Knierims and Denney / Frazier achieve TES minimums last season?
 

tony

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This is just nuts. Can't believe the ISU would be unmoved on the rules considering YKW. I have to believe the ISU would allow for an alternative like submittal of a video because the events of the last year has been unequaled and insane. These chaotic events are not the skater's fault, so I am hopeful that Zhou and K/F can get to Worlds. Question - did Knierims and Denney / Frazier achieve TES minimums last season?
Did you read what I wrote (the second point)? :lol: They have been discussing that idea, because there's really nothing else to go off (besides videos) unless the floodgates are opened for every nation to send an athlete.
 

misskarne

Handy Emergency Backup Mode
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I can't speak for everyone, but I would feel much more comfortable with Worlds going ahead if it was being held in a sensible country that had taken the pan-demic seriously and was still doing so. If it was being held in Japan, for example. But Sweden? Hell no.
 

tony

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I can't speak for everyone, but I would feel much more comfortable with Worlds going ahead if it was being held in a sensible country that had taken the pan-demic seriously and was still doing so. If it was being held in Japan, for example. But Sweden? Hell no.
This is an argument I don't quite understand, to be honest. Las Vegas has been open since June of last year, people are free to go vacation (and they are) all while following the required procedures in airports, planes, Ubers, etc and I'm fairly certain nightlife is more or less running normally there. Were people in extreme danger by going to Vegas rather than, let's say, New York City that was almost entirely shut down? I don't think so -- and we've seen the results of two competitions run by USFS in a city that is open and no one is sitting home.

To me, this reads like another case of a country having higher numbers and therefore people using the same precautions they would use anywhere else are now at an extreme risk. Do you think the airport atmosphere is full of CV? That the Uber drivers won't be taking the rules seriously? That hotel workers won't be? I really just don't get it, and not looking for an argument but just a reasoning.
 

Lemonade20

Former Kurtholic
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I don't know, it's not the country, but rather the people who are organizing this. Las Vegas went off well because they had the right people in place to ensure it'll be safe. I'm hoping Sweden will also have the right people in place. We can't assume before it even happens that it'll be a disaster.
 

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