ISU floats possible changes to judging system

No need for the petty swipes Tony. ;) I'm really not that difficult to work with. I just don't agree with you and you seem to think I'm a bitter ignorant person for it. Maybe it's easier for you to make sense of other people's opinions to dumb people down. Why bother arguing with someone like that, right? I don't think making a ceiling for the technical is the answer to this problem. I think adjusting the PCS would solve it much easier. I've just been trying to show you that you might not be as right as you think you are, and that it's okay for people to disagree with you without thinking they're stupid.

You're clearly very passionate about this, and I think it would serve you better to present this plan to the ISU or someone who can make a difference than trying to convince me of how right you are. Take some action with it, maybe you'll make a positive difference in the sport. :40beers:
 
You do realize there is a ceiling for the technical score currently, right? There are only certain elements skaters can do to max out the points and the ceiling is achieved by adding all of these points together to fulfill the given requirements. I'm taking what that ceiling would be and calling it 50.0 in the short program and 100.0 in the long program (again, for the men).

The hilarious thing about this is that you are taking it one direction (moving the PCS up) and I'm taking it the opposite direction by moving the TES max score down by making it equal to PCS and giving it a pretty, whole final possible maximum number. It's really not that much different.

There hasn't been a single petty swipe from me towards you in this thread, but you can check what you wrote in pretty much every reply to me. I'm giving a suggestion and explaining my reasoning behind it.
 
Right and I'm explaining why I don't agree with you. I'm poking fun at how you're trying to make everything about your suggestion and show you where things could go wrong. I just don't agree with the reasoning completely, not calling you bitter or like you don't know what 6.0 is about. There are no victims here, just disagreements. I'm not sure everyone would agree with you, so it's up to you to convince the right people. I'm just a skating fan, I never want to judge or be an ISU official, so what good is the back and forth with me going to do?

You really believe in it, you have worked hard on it, do something with it. Maybe you'll turn out to be right, I just don't agree that it's the answer. :). But I do appreciate you trying to make the sport better and hope you succeed with it.
 
You're still going to have shady judging regardless of the system
Shady judging: Therein lies the problem. The scoring system can be tweaked, overhauled, redone, totally scrapped, etc. etc. but at the end of the day, it won't really matter for this potential, corrupt human element called judging. No scoring system is foolproof against this. There will always be a way to 'skew' or direct a competition to its desired result or conclusion. The ideas and comments that people have suggested vary from brilliant to thought-provoking, indeed, but when human beings are at the controls, not much will change.

6.0 was little more than a popularity contest in many respects. CoP/IJS, basically the same thing. Neither scoring system has been adequate, and the facts remain that both scoring systems usher in the temptation for corruption.
 
I don't know anything in particular about judges' backgrounds, but I feel like part of the problem is that they're not only splitting their focus between the technical and artistic, they become judges because of their technical eye.

Good point.

I would be interested, actually -- and I know there's plenty imperfection in this idea -- to experiment with judges of performance/artistry who don't necessarily come from a skating background but from dance or something... of course, then we'd have to separate the more technical components, like skating skills... :shuffle: (In my perfect world, you don't need a whole panel averaging scores to get a reasonable result :lol:)

I think there are 3 basic ways this could be done:

Made-for-TV approach: The ISU hires/accepts volunteers of just enough celebrity judges famous around the world in their own artistic fields, who are also skating fans, to judge Performance, Composition, and Interpretation at Olympics and Worlds only. It would probably be a good idea to get them all together in advance to share knowledge from and standards from their respective areas of expertise, to get them more or less on the same page. But the main intent would be to bring real arts-world sensibilities to judging the artistic components of skating, and incidentally to attract more viewers by bringing in big names.

Top-down approach: The intention is to develop a smallish corps of committed experts in artistic evaluation of skating to take over the judging for ISU championships and the senior Grand Prix (and JPG final) only, at least at first. They could also be called on for events like Japan Open. Interested individuals would have to apply to be trained, by submitting a resume of their expertise in the arts and a few-hour online training course with written exam in which they analyze several selected skating programs and explain how they would score them on PE, CO, and IN, and why. The best applications, maybe the top 30 or so for ice dance and up to 100 for singles/pairs, would be accepted to an intense training. For efficiency's sake, maybe a week in Oberstdorf before and during Nebelhorn Trophy. Those who do well would then be officially appointed as artistic judges and would be assigned to shadow judge at least one of the major events the first year (scores might be official averaged in with the full judging panel's for those components), and from the second year on these trained artistic judges could officially take over judging those components to free up technical judges for Skating Skills, Transitions, and GOEs only. If there's enough interest and the added costs aren't too high, eventually the division of labor could spread to senior B and JGP events, and any nationally sponsored events a federation wants to use it for.

Bottom-up approach: On the theory that no one should judge a high-stakes ISU championship without having proven their judging ability at lesser events first for several years, the ISU could first offer artistic judging appointments at the general international level first, with eligibility for promotion a championship-level appointments as the next step up.
In-person training seminars and trial judging opportunities should be offered at numerous locations around the world, followed by the use of separate artistic judging panels at the general international level before the championship level.
If they start the program in an Olympic or post-Olympic year, maybe the best artistic judges at lower levels would be ready to judge championships by the time the next Olympics comes around.

These would be volunteer positions, just like technical judges, with expenses covered for active officials.

Working their way up through the bottom-up system could be a way for artistically minded skating fans (who can afford to take time off their day jobs and travel to training/trialing locations) to get into artistic judging, especially if national federations also offer training/trialing and domestic appointment opportunities.
 
Shady judging: Therein lies the problem. The scoring system can be tweaked, overhauled, redone, totally scrapped, etc. etc. but at the end of the day, it won't really matter for this potential, corrupt human element called judging. No scoring system is foolproof against this.
A case in point: even relatively straightforward ski jumping judging is subject to some critiques, even though it's held as an example "good" judging (as opposed to figure skating)

An economist's view on ski jumping vs figure skating judging (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...dging-right-and-figure-skating-gets-it-wrong/)
Ski jumping has its international federation select the judges for competitions like the Olympics, and I find that they select the least biased judges. Figure skating lets its national federations select the judges, and my research showed that they select the most biased judges.
 
I think a lot of the mess we're in with the scoring in men's is simply because nobody prepared for it. Nobody thought it would get this crazy this fast, everyone is shocked by it, and there's a 20-30 point technical difference in 3 years. We went from 0 quads from the 09-10 winner to 6-7 in 2017. That's more quick progress technically than we've ever seen happen and I don't think anyone was truly expecting this level of difficulty until the mid 2020's (or later).

We don't think Quints or 4axels are possible right now, but there's always going to be a way to push the scoring boundaries with jumps. The technical scores are just so much higher because of the sports progress. What would cut it in 2010 technically won't break the top 8 now, it's just ridiculous fast progress.

This is also going to happen in ladies soon because of the quads/3axels. We'll probably start seeing TES scores in the low-high 80's (based on where the top ladies are at right now). If the program is more difficult the scoring range should just keep going up as well IMO, just balance it out somehow. It's exciting to see new boundaries being pushed in scores as a fan, personal bests, world records, etc.
 
I don't see any "explosion" of quads or 3A in ladies happening. It didn't happen before and I highly doubt it will happen in the future. Ladies have plateaued more in tech than the men.
 
I don't see any "explosion" of quads or 3A in ladies happening. It didn't happen before and I highly doubt it will happen in the future. Ladies have plateaued more in tech than the men.

I am. Mirai and Wakaba both have fully rotated 3A that they will debut this year. Of course Rika is doing two 3A on the JGP. Last week Trusova attempted a 4S that was only <. This week Starr Andrews will attempt a 3A. I think there is two more Russians that are planning on debuting either a 3A or 4S and one more Japanese lady on the junior level.

Before this year it was rare to see someone attempt a 3A or 4S in competition. I think 2015 was the last time it happened with Courtney Hicks, Alaine, and Mirai all attempting them early in the season. However, they all gave up as the season progressed. I think women are trying them more in earnest than before. They have to. Alina has maxed out all the TES you can get. The only way you can beat someone at this point is to have these higher level jumps.
 
I am. Mirai and Wakaba both have fully rotated 3A that they will debut this year. Of course Rika is doing two 3A on the JGP. Last week Trusova attempted a 4S that was only <. This week Starr Andrews will attempt a 3A. I think there is two more Russians that are planning on debuting either a 3A or 4S and one more Japanese lady on the junior level.

Before this year it was rare to see someone attempt a 3A or 4S in competition. I think 2015 was the last time it happened with Courtney Hicks, Alaine, and Mirai all attempting them early in the season. However, they all gave up as the season progressed. I think women are trying them more in earnest than before. They have to. Alina has maxed out all the TES you can get. The only way you can beat someone at this point is to have these higher level jumps.

The question is consistency. Landing a quality 3A or quad (she will NOT have that quad in a couple years, and I'm typing it into existence here) a few times a season doesn't count.
 
There is no greater teacher than necessity. If they want to win they will get the jumps.

That's BS.

Every skater wants to win, or to perform to their best. Are you suggesting that skaters who don't win are slackers or are unmotivated?

The reality is that not every skater may not be physically capable of doing what gets the maximum points. That has nothing to do with their desire to win.
 
That's BS.

Every skater wants to win, or to perform to their best. Are you suggesting that skaters who don't win are slackers or are unmotivated?

The reality is that not every skater may not be physically capable of doing what gets the maximum points. That has nothing to do with their desire to win.

No I'm suggesting that we've maxed out points. Girls watching Zhenia and Alina know they cannot copy them and hope to win. Instead they will try to beat them using more advanced jumps.
 
No I'm suggesting that we've maxed out points. Girls watching Zhenia and Alina know they cannot copy them and hope to win. Instead they will try to beat them using more advanced jumps.

What part of "they may not be physically capable of doing that" do you not understand?
 
What part of "they may not be physically capable of doing that" do you not understand?

I understand it fine. Unfortunately those are the breaks. There were men and women who were incapable of doing triples. Does that mean that everyone stopped trying to do them? No. The ones that could stayed and the ones that didn't left. Same thing with Men and 3A and quads. And ladies with triple triples. Someone used them to win. Everyone else tried to get them afterwards. Either you got them or you lost.

This is Darwin's theory of natural selection. Eventually those that can do 3A and quads will dominate. Those that can will follow suit.
 
I understand it fine. Unfortuntately those are the breaks. There were men and women who were incapable of doing triples. Does that mean that everyone stopped trying to do them? No. The ones that could stayed and the ones that didn't left. Same thing with Men and 3A and quads. And ladies with triple triples. Someone used them to win. Everyone else tried to get them afterwards. Either you got them or you lost.

Which totally goes against your statement of, if they want to win, they will learn them.
 
Seriously.
You have to have a near impossible body shape for an adult female to rotate fast enough for 3As/quads. Pre-puberty, the body is more cylindrical, which makes it easier (also why it's easier for men - they have lower body fat and generally no curves to make them less cylindrical). You'll also notice the most successful female skaters have few curves and body fat - a genetic luck-of-the-draw thing. Even then, you need to have great technique and costumes with very minimal drag (less skirts and ruffles). So unless we get to a point where all female skaters have a perpetually tiny frame with an unhealthy lack of body fat into adulthood, I don't think we're going to get Senior ladies with 3As/quads.

Like, if it's physically impossible for 99% of Senior female skaters to do these, there's no way they're going to do them for the leg up in competition. One reason why Natural Selection works is that genetic mutation can happen to literally any offspring in a population - in theory, every member of future generations could have that mutation. It is not comparable to skating because in skating you might have one or two skaters in a generation even capable of doing those jumps, so they cannot spread.
For instance - you better bet a ton of female skaters try 3As (Summer 2016 every top US Lady but Ashley was trying it, along with many international skaters), but few get consistent enough to try them in competition, fewer land them in competition, and fewer still use them as a winning strategy. Those that do them as a winning strategy often lose because they focus too heavily on them and not on the things that are actually winning Ladies' competitions these days (3-3 combinations).
 
It's not leveling the field at all. If you are doing a 4T+3T, 3Lz, and 3A in the short program versus someone who is doing 4Lz+3T, 4F, and 3A successfully-- there's still going to be a noticeable spread. It's just giving equal weight to the other half of what figure skating is supposed to be.
It's a bit delusional to think the post figures era ever really gave "equal weight" to the two marks.

I actually think CoP quantified what was already happening. The technical side was officially given more weight, and it didn't matter because that's what the judges had been doing for over a decade anyway. Jumps make up way more of the tech side, tech scores can easily eclipse PCS, and 2/5 PCS scores are what used to be judged under the tech mark.

I truly feel that given what judging had actually been in practice under 6.0, and how CoP officially gave weight to the de facto judging practice, your suggestions are a solution in search of a problem.
 
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It's a bit delusional to think the post figures era ever really gave "equal weight" to the two marks.

I actually think CoP quantified what was already happening. The technical side was officially given more weight, and it didn't matter because that's what the judges had been doing for over a decade anyway. Jumps make up way more of the tech side, tech scores can easily eclipse PCS, and 2/5 PCS scores are what used to be judged under the tech mark.

I truly feel that given what judging had actually been in practice under 6.0, and how CoP officially gave weight to the de facto judging practice, your suggestions are a solution in search of a problem.

That's right. The fact that 2/5 of the pcs score relates to the old technical mark means that they have not been allocated equal weight. By doing this, artistry only now accounts for 30% of the oevrall score
 
Having now seen the proposed new base values and grade of execution scales post Pyeongchang, it remains to be seen whether the skaters will actually adopt new strategies simply because of new IJS scoring changes (other than probably seeing no pairs attempt quad throws).
They should do some simple calculations to see that the results of top competitions of last season don't change even if they applied the lowe BV. The issue isn't the BV, the issue is the judges who are throwing out huge scores without taking the quality into consideration.
 
Seerek bumped up this thread to post the link to Hersh's IN article (post #81) that expanded on his tweets last week.
"Source" from where?
The article cites the source as Fabio Bianchetti, the chair of the ISU Single & Pair Skating Committee - article excerpt:
"This is the direction line I am working on with the intent to make a radical change for the future development of the sport, hoping to bring back the popularity that figure skating used to have in the past," Italy's Fabio Bianchetti, the chair of the ISU Single & Pair Skating Committee, wrote in an email.
Another change may include replacing the current short program and free skate with what would effectively be an athletic program and an artistic program. Each would award full medals in events like the Olympics and the world championships, and there also would be a full medal for the all-around winner.
"Everything is possible," Bianchetti wrote. "At the moment, it is absolutely too early to say anything. The intention is to have three different medals: one for technical, one for artistic and one all-around, but how it will be for sure is impossible to say now."
While the scoring changes could go into effect for the 2018-19 season, the plan for new programs may have to wait until after the 2022 Olympic Games.
 
I like the idea of awarding separate medals for the short, the long, and "all around", as in gymnastics. We've talked about this here before. Spreads the love.

They already do this at international competitions other than the Olympics. There's no huge ceremony or anything, but you do get tiny little medals in a smaller backstage ceremony for finishing in the top 3 of the SP. On rare occasions, there's press images of these or skaters post pictures of the medals on social media, but for some reason it's not really advertised at all. I don't know if they have the tiny medals for the LP as well or if they only award the overall medals after it. It probably depends on the competition.
 
They already do this at international competitions other than the Olympics. There's no huge ceremony or anything, but you do get tiny little medals in a smaller backstage ceremony for finishing in the top 3 of the SP.
ISU "small medals" are awarded separately for the SP and LP at the 4 ISU Championships -- Worlds, Europeans, Four Continents and Junior Worlds.

I can't remember the first time the LP small medals were awarded in a public ceremony -- I remember this happening outside the arena at 2009 Worlds in L.A, for example. AFAIK, the SP small medals are awarded at the the post-SP press conferences/FS draws.
 
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Seriously.
You have to have a near impossible body shape for an adult female to rotate fast enough for 3As/quads. Pre-puberty, the body is more cylindrical, which makes it easier (also why it's easier for men - they have lower body fat and generally no curves to make them less cylindrical). You'll also notice the most successful female skaters have few curves and body fat - a genetic luck-of-the-draw thing. Even then, you need to have great technique and costumes with very minimal drag (less skirts and ruffles). So unless we get to a point where all female skaters have a perpetually tiny frame with an unhealthy lack of body fat into adulthood, I don't think we're going to get Senior ladies with 3As/quads.

So how is it that the two skaters with the biggest 3A's--Midori Ito and Tonya Harding-- didn't have "cylindrical" body shapes. Midori remains the queen of the 3A, Mao notwithstanding. This topic has been discussed elsewhere (I think in connection with Gracie Gold) and there is no consensus that extremely low body fat or tiny frames are the key to "success" in ladies figure skating.
 
If they have 3 events for pairs and singles, will they eliminate the team event for the Olympics?
 
@giselle23 I think with Tonya Harding and Midori Ito, they were just muscular enough. They didn't exactly have curves though. (Curves is not the same as muscular - you can be cylindrical while muscular, as many gymnasts are) If you have lots of muscle mass with minimal curves like they did, a 3A is definitely possible. However, this is again a very rare body type - one study of gymnasts suggest that top gymnasts have this body type not because of their training, but rather because those few individuals in the competitive pool who have that body type naturally are simply the most capable of doing the skills necessary to rise to the top.

Also, Ashley mentioned it in her interview with ESPN's body issue, but if you gain even a slight bit of weight (fat wise), it can throw off your jumps. Even if you, as you do, reject the argument that low body fat is necessary, you have to agree that the fat and growth naturally gained during puberty does throw off things that affect jumps - center of balance, weight distribution, etc. that necessitates most skaters re-learning jumps, making it necessary for them to focus on maintaining triple jumps as opposed to 3As and quads.


@mollymgr I hope so, but I'm not optimistic. All the skaters were so tired coming off of it for the individual events that it led to poor performances. If they're going to keep it - at least have it after the individual events.

I also feel like the team event is a weird way for skaters to be "Olympic Medalists." Yes, they are medalists, but I think part of being an Olympic medalist in skating is being someone that was genuinely good enough in the moment - someone remembered for having that Olympic moment. It's hard to remember or care that any of our US team members were medalists because it felt like they didn't have Olympic moments. Even Lipnitskaya, who had that great Olympic moment, doesn't feel like an Olympic medalist because it didn't happen during the ladies competition. It was so weird hearing everyone refer to her as 'the youngest Olympic gold medalist in ladies figure skating' because it wasn't an individual medal.
 

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