IOC's decision: (clean) Russian athletes can compete under neutral flag at PyeongChang Olympics

[Twilight1]

Do people understand the difference between "state sponsored doping" vs "individual doping"

Russia as a country cheated. Anyone who thinks an entire country should get away with state sponsored cheating and lying should reexplore their values.

There is no nice or gentle way of saying that.

 

[Deleted member 40371]

Yes. They are a part of a system that had state-sponsored doping. Russia refuses to come clean, athletes suffer. Of course now the IOC has kissed and made up without Russia admitting to the scope of the problem, so I guess any doping should be allowed.

They are fighting the charges on various international courts, admitting the charges will be against their own interests. Also, these people who wrote the report need to answer the questions as well in court of law.

 

[DELTA]

Yes. They are a part of a system that had state-sponsored doping. Russia refuses to come clean, athletes suffer. Of course now the IOC has kissed and made up without Russia admitting to the scope of the problem, so I guess any doping should be allowed.

Statement very similar to Trump, who said we should take out families of terrorists.

 

[hanca]

Yes. They are a part of a system that had state-sponsored doping. Russia refuses to come clean, athletes suffer. Of course now the IOC has kissed and made up without Russia admitting to the scope of the problem, so I guess any doping should be allowed.

Hmmm, have you noticed that they didn’t exactly choose into which country they will be born? This ‘guilty because of your nationality’ makes me very uncomfortable.

 

[Twilight1]

What makes me uncomfortable is that some individuals were complicit to the cheating and others who seem to be fine with cheating because Russia (and China, East Germany etc) did it.

Also worth noting is Russia wants to MURDER the whistleblower(s). They just sound so innocent right?

 

[JanetB]

Hmmm, have you noticed that they didn’t exactly choose into which country they will be born? This ‘guilty because of your nationality’ makes me very uncomfortable.

Your continually harping on this subject concerns me because you don't seem to have any sympathy for non-Russian athletes or have any understanding the that they rights also. In fact I can't tell if you even feel that the Russian doping scheme was wrong.

The IOC bent over backward to let some Russian athletes compete, not all of them got past the stricter qualification process. They had to go stricter qualification process because they are from a country that does not seem to have a problem with cheating. Some of them fail that process for individual reasons that have as yet not been published.

 

[Yehudi]

Hmmm, have you noticed that they didn’t exactly choose into which country they will be born? This ‘guilty because of your nationality’ makes me very uncomfortable.

Kirill Khaliavin got to choose to be Spanish though...

 

[hanca]

What makes me uncomfortable is that some individuals were complicit to the cheating and others who seem to be fine with cheating because Russia (and China, East Germany etc) did it.

Also worth noting is Russia wants to MURDER the whistleblower(s). They just sound so innocent right?

The athletes yes. The government and country no. That’s why I would concentrate on finding a way how to punish the country, rather than randomly select athletes that are not invited. I would also punish the ones who I have proof are guilty. Not the ones who were born in the same country but were not even at the Olympics the last time and have never had anything to do with the system that was guilty. I strongly believe against punishing based on belonging to the same group, be it same ethnic group, or same gender, or same religion. I really think collective punishment is wrong if it punishes at the same time those who didn’t do anything wrong. And I do hope that those who are so strongly believing in collective punishment will experience in their lives being punished for something they didn’t do.

 

[hanca]

Your continually harping on this subject concerns me because you don't seem to have any sympathy for non-Russian athletes or have any understanding the that they rights also. In fact I can't tell if you even feel that the Russian doping scheme was wrong.

The IOC bent over backward to let some Russian athletes compete, not all of them got past the stricter qualification process. They had to go stricter qualification process because they are from a country that does not seem to have a problem with cheating. Some of them fail that process for individual reasons that have as yet not been published.

I am against doping, but I am against all doping, from all countries. And not only system doping, but also individual doping. I would ban from olympics all athletes who were ever caught doping. But I would never punish those I don’t have firm proof against. And no group punishment based on countries.

 

[Twilight1]

Hanca-

So what are your ideas for a country that is lying and denying about their cheating and wanting to murder whistleblowers?

 

[hanca]

Hanca-

So what are your ideas for a country that is lying and denying about their cheating and wanting to murder whistleblowers?

Well, are the skaters or the athletes wanting to murder the whistleblowers? Why is the punishment aimed at athletes?

 

[Twilight1]

Well, are the skaters or the athletes wanting to murder the whistleblowers? Why is the punishment aimed at athletes?

Answer the question Hanca. What do you propose to do in response to lying and denying and threats on lives of whistleblowers?

My position is very clear.

 

[hanca]

Answer the question Hanca. What do you propose to do in response to lying and denying and threats on lives of whistleblowers?

My position is very clear.

Why would I propose anything? I am not paid to come with clever ideas regarding how to punish country and not its athletes. Maybe some significant financial punishment. Maybe not allowing their judges and their officials take part. But regarding the threats, that’s a matter of criminal justice. Do they know who made the threats? I doubt it was the athletes.

 

[Twilight1]

Why would I propose anything? I am not paid to come with clever ideas regarding how to punish country and not its athletes. Maybe some significant financial punishment. Maybe not allowing their judges and their officials take part. But regarding the threats, that’s a matter of criminal justice. Do they know who made the threats? I doubt it was the athletes.

Yet you have no problem expressing an opinion on not doing anything to athletes who may or may not be complicit to the state sponsored cheating that occurred.

 

[hanca]

Yet you have no problem expressing an opinion on not doing anything to athletes who may or may not be complicit to the state sponsored cheating that occurred.

That’s right. Who may not. So you are happy to punish those you admitted are innocent. Tell me, how would you feel being punished for something someone else from your country did? And not a small punishment, we are talking about something you have worked towards for over ten years.

 

[Twilight1]

That’s right. Who may not. So you are happy to punish those you admitted are innocent. Tell me, how would you feel being punished for something someone else from your country did? And not a small punishment, we are talking about something you have worked towards for over ten years.

My opinions get dismissed and negated on this board for simply being Canadian lmfao. Shyte happens simply for your nationality all the time.

It really is a simple concept... if Russia did not cheat so globally across so many sports, their athletes would not have been subjected to this.

Simple and basic.

 

[hanca]

My opinions get dismissed and negated on this board for simply being Canadian lmfao. Shyte happens simply for your nationality all the time.

It really is a simple concept... if Russia did not cheat so globally across so many sports, their athletes would not have been subjected to this.

Simple and basic.

I know, whereas Canada has never cheated in anything. It must suck that Russians were allowed to compete, otherwise Osmond could get her own gold medal rather than just the team event one. But you know, she did have opportunity to beat them through her skating, she just was not good enough. But I can understand why you feel so strongly.

 

[Twilight1]

Hanca- where did I ever say that Osmond deserved gold? I have said it no where.

But thank you for proving my point...

 

[hanca]

Hanca- where did I ever say that Osmond deserved gold? I have said it no where.

But thank you for proving my point...

No, you didn’t say that she deserved gold, but you expressed so much feelings of unhappiness about Russians being able to take part, that I am just wondering whether your nationalism went as far as hoping to get rid of any skaters that were standing between Osmond and the gold medal.

 

[Twilight1]

Hanca- Russia... not specific athletes. I actually supported OAR being there... just not a blanket all welcome. I firmly believed they should have had very strict regulations to be there and it should have been ongoing for several years.

So do try to not put words in my mouth that I did not say.

 

[Vagabond]

Well, are the skaters or the athletes wanting to murder the whistleblowers? Why is the punishment aimed at athletes?

Go read through the first two thousand posts in this thread, including the ones replying to your earlier posts, and you'll find the answer in several places.

 

[caseyedwards]

Do people understand the difference between "state sponsored doping" vs "individual doping"

Russia as a country cheated. Anyone who thinks an entire country should get away with state sponsored cheating and lying should reexplore their values.

There is no nice or gentle way of saying that.

Of course Russia’s current government should be punished! Not hosting an event, No leader invited to any ceremony, huge fines, but a countries citizens are not it’s government. Not one East German was ever punished for what gdr did! If a Russian athlete didn’t cooperate they faced end of sports career or execution! Why don’t you acknowledge Russians are not it’s government! You punish the government and never the athletes!

 

[caseyedwards]

Hanca-

So what are your ideas for a country that is lying and denying about their cheating and wanting to murder whistleblowers?

That is the government of the country and not the people or athletes of the country! Like I said huge fines for government, banning of government officials, banning of country hosting an event which always requires government assistance or involvement of some kind! And since Russia is a country in which the government is totally involved in all sports like it was still communist you can’t blame any athletes! Like you said they could be killed if they become whistleblowers. So more testing of the athletes but know it’s state sponsored not athlete sponsored. Unless you believe all Russians should be banned because they all are state sponsored!

Unless things get really really bad in a country the citizens will live under a ruthless totalitarian dictatorship rather than die trying to oust it from power because it will likely mean their death or families death! So that’s the situation in Russia! That must be acknowledged! People still want to be athletes in Russia regardless of the government! So you must accept if you get into the system because you are so talented you may be forced to dope! Ioc must acknowledge that. But you don’t ban the country or athletes because neither are the government. You test!

 

[Twilight1]

That is the government of the country and not the people or athletes of the country! Like I said huge fines for government, banning of government officials, banning of country hosting an event which always requires government assistance or involvement of some kind! And since Russia is a country in which the government is totally involved in all sports like it was still communist you can’t blame any athletes! Like you said they could be killed if they become whistleblowers. So more testing of the athletes but know it’s state sponsored not athlete sponsored. Unless you believe all Russians should be banned because they all are state sponsored!

Read post 2030.

What Russia got was a pathetic slap on the wrist. 2 skaters couldn't compete for a bullshyte surfacy punishment.

Paying fines is crap.
Reversing the banning after only one comp after 2 OAR athletes tested positive is crap.

 

[DELTA]

Meanwhile abuse of TUE system continues. Why dope when WADA gives you a free pass?

 

[VGThuy]

Meanwhile abuse of TUE system continues. Why dope when WADA gives you a free pass?

If it's so easy, then every athlete would do it and certain countries would not bother with state-wide and state-sponsored doping.

 

[hanca]

If it's so easy, then every athlete would do it and certain countries would not bother with state-wide and state-sponsored doping.

Well, it seems that it is pretty easy. There have been some concerns raised in our media re: the cyclists. And it was noted that they have done nothing wrong, because it was within the rules, but questions were asked whether they needed the asthma medications.

 

[lala]

Meanwhile abuse of TUE system continues. Why dope when WADA gives you a free pass?

yeah, 6000 ampoules of asthma medicine for Norwegian skiers..

 

[hanca]

yeah, 6000 ampoules of asthma medicine for Norwegian skiers..

Well, it seems that there was enough to have some left for British cyclists. But everything seems to be within the rules... Am I the only one who seems to think there is something wrong with the rules? I would ban all medical exceptions because it is definitely being abused and there is no fair way how to control that.

 

[lala]

Well, it seems that there was enough to have some left for British cyclists. But everything seems to be within the rules... Am I the only one who seems there is something wrong with the rules? I would ban all medical exceptions because it is definitely being abused and there is no fair way how to control that.

I'm with you. I wrote it not once on these pages...