Interview with ISU Vice President Lakernik on how figure skating will change

[clairecloutier]

Yes and I appreciate that, and to be clear I am reacting more to my frustration with trying to understand the ISU when this proposal leaves me and . I just can't make sense of it at the moment but maybe they will have a good explanation. We'll see.

I wouldn't hold my breath. To date, the only public explanation from them is that competitions are too long and fans/others "can barely survive it all." This was from Lakernik.

 

[shine]

A jump takes less than 1 second and maybe 4 seconds to set up at most if it’s a quad. And they are going to shave off a whole 30 seconds for one less jumping pass? If their intention is to allow more balanced programs this has got to be one of the dumbest solutions they’ve come up with and one of the dumbest changes to date.

 

[Bellanca]

I’m inclined to think that Lakernik and company would prefer and might continue to kick around the idea to shelve the short program and short dance, limit the four disciplines to one program only and be done with it. May the highest scoring man, woman, pairs and ice dance team, at that point, win... suggesting that it doesn’t take two programs to get there. That’s (most likely) what the ISU is still considering or hoping will happen, eventually.

 

[shine]

I wouldn't hold my breath. To date, the only public explanation from them is that competitions are too long and fans/others "can barely survive it all." This was from Lakernik.

LOL, so why does that only apply to the men then? Can they be even more contradictory?

 

[clairecloutier]

LOL, so why does that only apply to the men then? Can they be even more contradictory?

They are cutting both men's/pairs down from 4:30 to 4:00. The thing is, as @BittyBug said, it doesn't even really save much time in the competition overall.

 

[BittyBug]

I also don't understand the "can't repeat a quad" rule. There are already restrictions related to repeating jumps - why focus on quads and not triples also?

Did anyone land on the podium solely because they repeated a quad? I don't think so.

 

[Dobre]

I also don't understand the "can't repeat a quad" rule. There are already restrictions related to repeating jumps - why focus on quads and not triples also?

Because they want to encourage the diversity of skill? I think that's a positive consideration and a natural thing to encourage now that there are a number of athletes making the attempt.

But, looking ahead, I also think they should consider the impact this would have on discouraging athletes from going for a 4-4 combination. If you can't repeat either of those jumps again, then would there be a point incentive to go for it?

 

[jlai]

Because they want to encourage the diversity of skill? I think that's a positive consideration and a natural thing to encourage now that there are a number of athletes making the attempt.

But, looking ahead, I also think they should consider the impact this would have on discouraging athletes from going for a 4-4 combination. If you can't repeat either of those jumps again, then would there be a point incentive to go for it?

I highly doubt there will be 4-4 next year. When and if that happens they can change the rule again

 

[BittyBug]

Because they want to encourage the diversity of skill?

How does limiting the ability to repeat a quad encourage diversity of skill? There is still an incentive today to learn as many quads as possible because they can replace triples to increase TES (see Chen, Nathan). But let's assume the incentive would work - why not also ban the repetition of triples? Wouldn't that encourage skaters to learn new jumps (whether harder triples or quads)?

 

[Tavi]

I also don't understand the "can't repeat a quad" rule. There are already restrictions related to repeating jumps - why focus on quads and not triples also?

Did anyone land on the podium solely because they repeated a quad? I don't think so.

Under the current rule, someone who only does 4T and 4S can do up to 4 quads in a free skate. If this change is instituted, he will only be permitted to do 2. This will presumably make it easier for guys with no quads to catch him with good GOE/PCS. However, all of these guys (those who do no quads or just one or two) will be at a disadvantage to guys like Nathan, Shoma, and Vincent, all of whom can (sometimes) execute 4-5 different quads. The only things that would lessen an advantage like that would be if total number of quads is limited, base value of all quads is decreased somewhat, judges don’t automatically award high PCS/GOE to guys jumping lots of quads, and/or if PCS were factored differently. So it increases the pressure to master a variety of quads. I guess we’ll see what happens.

 

[starrynight]

What jump google translates from Russian to English as 'quadruple sheepskin coat'

 

[Tinami Amori]

What jump google translates from Russian to English as 'quadruple sheepskin coat'

четверной ТУЛУП - quad toe-loop.

toe-loop transliterates to ту-луп (tulup)
but in russian the word тулуп is this http://yarmeh.ru/45-thickbox_default/tulup-postovoj.jpg

 

[starrynight]

Thank you @Tinami Amori

Adding a rule where each type of quad can only be used once would be a windfall for certain skaters like Chen, Uno, Jin etc who can do a lot of different quads.

I think the splatfest at Worlds was a perfect platform for the ISU to launch these changes. When there is a good quality free skate with lots of successful quads it is so exciting, but when it fails it is a total disaster. I felt that the better skating happened in earlier flights where there were interesting programs (often with a a quad or two) but the final flight (in particular Chen's FS - and I love Chen don't mistake me) was a lot of jumping to background music.

Chen's free skate music - in particular the last piece - from Mao's Last Dancer is stunning. But nothing musical was done with it at all. It is music which has so much potential. I recall liking his Senior B first outing of it the most, as he was doing fewer quads, he actually took time to accent the music with his movements. He can do it. But it's just not worth it under the current judging system. I'm actually hoping some other skaters may pick up the Mao's Last Dancer soundtrack and do more with it in coming seasons.

I'm fairly certain all the top men have the ability to produce programs of the highest quality, but dedicating their time to jump training is rightfully their main focus as that is how they win.

I think the way to fix this is to not so much reduce the reward for quads, but to make falls costs more. And I think they are trying to do this.

I think in mens skating there maybe really is a case for the technical program and artistic program. (Not so much in ladies and god help us in dance).

 

[AxelAnnie]

And why did he not say that about other programs that made use of the system and hide their skaters' weakness...

Isn't that what you are supposed to do when you plan a program?

 

[starrynight]

Isn't that what you are supposed to do when you plan a program?

I think that designing a programs which drew attention to Savenchenko/Massot's huge elements and Bruno's strength is something Russia could learn from. There were a lot of clever choreography and moments in that free skate and perfect music choice. Regrettably, Tarasova/Morozov drew all the attention away from their gorgeous elements so as to actually hide them in their FS. I still am shocked there was no intervention there and a forced change of program.

 

[Tinami Amori]

I think that designing a programs which drew attention to Savenchenko/Massot's huge elements and Bruno's strength is something Russia could learn from. There were a lot of clever choreography and moments in that free skate and perfect music choice. Regrettably, Tarasova/Morozov drew all the attention away from their gorgeous elements so as to actually hide them in their FS. I still am shocked there was no intervention there and a forced change of program.

(not to question or compare the scores) but i don't think too many Bruno's flaws (in posture mostly) were well hidden, compared to Robin.. It's hard to hide lack of elegance.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/sp-pairs-a-20180216-870x580.jpg

http://www.absoluteskating.com/interviews/2013savchenkoszolkowy/_MG_0973.jpg

 

[BaileyCatts]

^^ First link not working? Would like to see.

 

[starrynight]

(not to question or compare the scores) but i don't think too many Bruno's flaws (in posture mostly) were well hidden, compared to Robin.. It's hard to hide lack of elegance.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/sp-pairs-a-20180216-870x580.jpg

http://www.absoluteskating.com/interviews/2013savchenkoszolkowy/_MG_0973.jpg

Honestly, after the huge opening triple twist, they had the audience by their throats. There was a 19 year old male office junior in my Australian workplace excitedly telling everyone how Massot threw Aliona 'like metres, and then she landed backwards on one foot!!' so I don't know if anyone was really looking at how Bruno was extending his fingers or holding his back. And I think that was the point of the construction of their program. Those of us who know how to look closely obviously can think of places where Bruno could hold himself better or have better extension. But I don't think it effected the impact of the program as a whole.

 

[Madhatter]

I also don't understand the "can't repeat a quad" rule. There are already restrictions related to repeating jumps - why focus on quads and not triples also?

Did anyone land on the podium solely because they repeated a quad? I don't think so.

Hanyu won the Olympics because he reapeated a quad. Or two.

 

[4rkidz]

Having sat through the disastrous men’s program in Milan I would appreciate any cutting back of quads because even those that did them (Chen) stalked them at the expense of the actual program.
For pairs though I don’t see the big deal really but I do think it should be big reward=big risk so if you land clean quad you get Major marks but not if you splat (even if rotated) I also think more marks should be given for actual skating skills & pairs elements (death spirals, lifts etc) as it’s not supposed to be two singles skating together.
The reason Shoma stayed in the podium was because he never let the program go even with all the splats and his superior skating skills.
I think I would be nice if the ISU opened up feedback to the consumer as well.

 

[DimaToe]

The fact that Lakernik picked on Savchenko/Massot instead of his own countrywomen that have whored out IJS for 2 Olympic cycles or the countless other examples in which the judging system could be improved shows that the growth of the sport isn’t the priority of the ISU, just keeping the “big” federations in power is the priority. So I’m about the changes, the cheating will stay the same, the only thing that will change are the scores.

 

[Coco]

Based on all his previous interviews over the past several years I feel like this one is kind of out of character for him or at least doesn't have his normal tone.

 

[starrynight]

... shows that the growth of the sport isn’t the priority of the ISU, just keeping the “big” federations in power is the priority. So I’m about the changes, the cheating will stay the same, the only thing that will change are the scores.

I'm convinced the main reason that the number making the free skate in pairs will increase is because the small federation skaters are pushing out top countries. We've had China, USA and Canada not get pairs through the qualification because one mistake and you're out at the moment. Would they be so keen to make this change if this was not happening?

 

[Sylvia]

I'm convinced the main reason that the number making the free skate in pairs will increase is because the small federation skaters are pushing out top countries. We've had China, USA and Canada not get pairs through the qualification because one mistake and you're out at the moment. Would they be so keen to make this change if this was not happening?

I assume this also is a proposed change (expanding the Worlds pairs field from 16 to 20 that was first mentioned in the 2018 Worlds forum in the Kiss & Cry section) that will be voted on at the ISU Congress?

Google translated excerpt from the end of Veronika Sovetova's interview with Lakernik:

- Why reduce programs?

- There is a tendency to reduce the time of the championships. Instruments can be shortened by time programs, refereeing, workouts. For example, now the question is raised that 16 pairs in an arbitrary program is not enough, because the level of riding thanks to the work of the ISU has grown very much. As a result, at the World Cup we achieved that there were 28 pairs of decent level. And since we are blocking their exit from the qualification themselves, how can we encourage them?

There is another dilemma: there are proposals to increase the number of singles in an arbitrary program from 24 people to 30. But in this case the schedule will be so dense that it will become completely still. We need to weigh all the pros and cons and decide which way to go next.

There are much more prosaic things than time - this is the interest of television and sponsors. This is money, at the expense of which there lives figure skating. If we make changes, we must coordinate them. There are quite a lot of questions connected with objective reality. But the process should not stand still. After all, our main task is the spectacle of the sport and, as a consequence, the interest of the fan.

 

[DimaToe]

I'm convinced the main reason that the number making the free skate in pairs will increase is because the small federation skaters are pushing out top countries. We've had China, USA and Canada not get pairs through the qualification because one mistake and you're out at the moment. Would they be so keen to make this change if this was not happening?

For pairs I would actually argue that the current level of talent warrants for more pairs in the FS, but you do make a good point, if it was the N.Koreans, Australians and Czechs constantly being shafted in the SP would the ISU give too many f#cks?

 

[bardtoob]

Is there a quote where he says the official result protocols will be available before the actual skating?

 

[Vagabond]

A jump takes less than 1 second and maybe 4 seconds to set up at most if it’s a quad. And they are going to shave off a whole 30 seconds for one less jumping pass? If their intention is to allow more balanced programs this has got to be one of the dumbest solutions they’ve come up with and one of the dumbest changes to date.

I do wonder if they've ever watched a Men's Free Skate.

They'll be going from a shade over 23 seconds per element to 20 seconds per jump, and almost every elite Men's program begins with twenty seconds or more building speed to go into the first jump. I don't think that's going to change. How long till everyone starts griping about how frenetic Men's Free Skates have become?

 

[BittyBug]

Hanyu won the Olympics because he reapeated a quad. Or two.

What I meant by my comment is that no one has landed on the podium solely because they repeated a quad. Everyone on the podium at the OLYs repeated at least one quad, but Hanyu won because he had a beautifully choreographed program with Level 4 steps and spins that he executed beautifully, along with great jumps.

 

[starrynight]

For pairs I would actually argue that the current level of talent warrants for more pairs in the FS, but you do make a good point, if it was the N.Koreans, Australians and Czechs constantly being shafted in the SP would the ISU give too many f#cks?

Well, they are currently taking 30 seconds of valuable out of the men's FS just to cut 12 minutes out of the total free skate because competitions are too long. Yet, they are moving to add a whole extra flight of skaters to the pairs free skate.

The brutal cut off into the free skate has more potential to harm the bigger countries. Smaller feds are probably just going to keep their one spot regardless of if they make the cut, unless their team can break into the top 10. But if big feds have a couple of teams make mistakes and not get into the FS it is a huge disaster for their pairs programs. USA got down to 1 pairs spot and Canada also got somewhat close to that happening too.

A lot of the lower ranked small fed pairs teams who are pushing out top federation skaters from the free skate are only relatively young teams who could expect to improve. I actually think the big federations are concerned.

 

[VGThuy]

Everything is stupid.