Increasingly likely “Russia” will be banned from Pyeongchang

[VGThuy]

As impossible as it seems, I agree with both Jayar and zebraswan. I think the problem is much bigger than some here are making it out to be and are letting personal emotional feelings get in the way of seeing what a systemic problem it is. I do think it needs to be addressed but then I don't know if a blanket ban is the best course of action since it will punish athletes and sports that do not have this problem and I'm on the side of not punishing people who shouldn't be punished. I still think there's a solution to punish the system while not punishing clean athletes.

 

[caseyedwards]

Making Russians compete as neutral at 2017 IAAF world championships didn’t fix Russia. They won’t do it again.

 

[Jayar]

That's not true at all. I was against banning the whole Russian team in Rio, and I would be against it no matter what. There are sports where doping is not endemic and sports where the opposite is true. Why in the world should people be punished that have nothing to do with those notoriously dirty sports (where, by the way, Russians are far from the only ones who are dirty!)? I have 0 interest in watching the Olympics if they ban the whole team. What a joke that will be...but not an amusing one.

Again, you are missing the point. You are assuming that doping is an individual choice, and in many cases, it is. When it is state-sponsored, the state must be sanctioned. If Russia is not at the Games, and you don't watch, so be it. Doesn't mean that it was an incorrect decision. I, for one, am for clean sport. If that means that they have to ban Russia to get closer to that, then I am all for it.

 

[Karen-W]

https://www.insidethegames.biz/arti...r-role-in-systematic-conspiracy-at-sochi-2014

Interesting quote from FIS about the nature of the doping program... I suspect they are fallingon the side of banning Russia from Pyeongchang in light of the Oswald Commission report earlier this week. it will be interesting to see what happens next week.

 

[misskarne]

The only reason why folks here believe that a full ban of Russia is unfair is because we are skating fans and we don't want to see the skaters banned.

This attempt to shut down discussion is so tiresome. No, it's not only about the figure skating. It's about the concept. Innocent, clean athletes forced to sit at home for no other reason than the flag next to their names while known, convicted, unrepentant dopers are allowed to go win stuff at the Olympics. If you can't see how damn wrong that was in Rio and how damn wrong it would be for Korea then I'd question where your sense of justice is coming from.

There are sports where doping is not endemic and sports where the opposite is true. Why in the world should people be punished that have nothing to do with those notoriously dirty sports (where, by the way, Russians are far from the only ones who are dirty!)?

Watching the known dopers that made up most of the US men's sprinting team in Rio, knowing that there were innocent athletes banned for the crime of being Russian, was nauseating. It will be the same in Rio - I'm sure there will be known dopers competing for other countries.

Again, you are missing the point. You are assuming that doping is an individual choice, and in many cases, it is. When it is state-sponsored, the state must be sanctioned.

Great. So sanction the damn state and leave the athletes out of it.

Or let's open an investigation into every country in the Olympics. You can't tell me China's not got a state-sanctioned doping program. You can't tell me it's a coincidence that so many US sprinters are busted for doping. Take a look at British cycling while you're at it. The list could go on. Thing is, those targets aren't politically convenient right now.

I mean, look at what happened in Rio. China covered up a positive test for Sun Yang and didn't tell WADA about it until after his weak little 3-month ban. HELLO? THEY DIDN'T TELL WADA? And the whole thing was glossed over and swept under a rug because WADA and the IOC were too busy persecuting clean, innocent Russian athletes to bother.

 

[skatepixie]

Other than the Pairs competition, I don't plan to watch if the Russian skaters aren't there.

 

[rfisher]

Other than the Pairs competition, I don't plan to watch if the Russian skaters aren't there.

Me either.

 

[BlueRidge]

Well it won't make much difference if they aren't there for Dance.

 

[skatepixie]

Well it won't make much difference if they aren't there for Dance.

Yeah, I'm not really into dance lately. I'm not really an Ice Dance fan, though no longer a complete hater like I was in the early 2000s. Still, though -- not a fan of the discipline, just of certain teams, none of which are still around, so meh.

 

[Jayar]

Great. So sanction the damn state and leave the athletes out of it.

Or let's open an investigation into every country in the Olympics. You can't tell me China's not got a state-sanctioned doping program. You can't tell me it's a coincidence that so many US sprinters are busted for doping. Take a look at British cycling while you're at it. The list could go on. Thing is, those targets aren't politically convenient right now.

I mean, look at what happened in Rio. China covered up a positive test for Sun Yang and didn't tell WADA about it until after his weak little 3-month ban. HELLO? THEY DIDN'T TELL WADA? And the whole thing was glossed over and swept under a rug because WADA and the IOC were too busy persecuting clean, innocent Russian athletes to bother.

YES! Let's do leave the athletes out of it. Let's not have them take PEDs like they did in Russia for Sochi. But if you think that banning individuals for the work of a state sponsored system is fair, then I have some oceanside property to sell you in Iowa. You can sit here and try to debunk my statements, but truthfully, it doesn't matter. It also doesn't matter what I think. Ultimately it will be decided in a few days, and we can have nothing to do with the outcome. If innocent athletes are punished in order to send a message to the whole, again, I am all for it. And if there were more evidence to indicate state-sponsored doping in China or any other country, I am sure that it would be investigated. And I am sure that one day those that are cheating will get caught. When you cheat, the victories are all very temporary. You will eventually be caught.

 

[alchemy void]

As impossible as it seems, I agree with both Jayar and zebraswan. I think the problem is much bigger than some here are making it out to be and are letting personal emotional feelings get in the way of seeing what a systemic problem it is. I do think it needs to be addressed but then I don't know if a blanket ban is the best course of action since it will punish athletes and sports that do not have this problem and I'm on the side of not punishing people who shouldn't be punished.

I totally agree with you.

I still think there's a solution to punish the system while not punishing clean athletes.

That's the million dollar question! I don't know if there's any correct answer, though.

 

[ilovepaydays]

I thought the IOC's ban of the entire Russian track & field team in Rio (and the IAAF's continued ban) was ridiculous - especially considering that in June 2016, Jama Aden's hotel room was raided in Spain and they found tons of EPO and all of his runners still got to compete in Rio - including Genzebe Dibaba, who oddly withdrew from every race in 2016 prior to Rio. In fact, WADA had inspected Ethiopia's anti-doping program and found it to be basically non-existent. There were several performances from Ethiopian distance runners in the Rio Olympics and the World Championships this past summer.

 

[skatingguy]

I thought the IOC's ban of the entire Russian track & field team in Rio (and the IAAF's continued ban) was ridiculous - especially considering that in June 2016, Jama Aden's hotel room was raided in Spain and they found tons of EPO and all of his runners still got to compete in Rio - including Genzebe Dibaba, who oddly withdrew from every race in 2016 prior to Rio. In fact, WADA had inspected Ethiopia's anti-doping program and found it to be basically non-existent. There were several performances from Ethiopian distance runners in the Rio Olympics and the World Championships this past summer.

Just to clarify the IOC didn't ban the Russian track & field team in Rio - the IAAF did. The IOC organizes the Olympics but the individual sports federations determine which countries get entries. The IAAF imposed the ban in November of 2015 and the IOC was not involved in that decision. It's not dissimilar to the decision of the IWF (Weightlifting) to ban Russia and Bulgaria from Rio.

 

[caseyedwards]

I totally agree with you.



That's the million dollar question! I don't know if there's any correct answer, though.

The correct answer is in what happened in Rio and what happened in London. Did Russian athletics make progress on all of its problems to be reinstated? No. So ioc knows that allowing Klishina to compete for Russia in Rio didn’t help. IAAF and ioc knows allowing Russians to compete as neutrals in London didn’t help. Any Russian competing is a huge victory for Russia and means they don’t have to do anything. So Russia is still suspended from IAAF, still has wada decertification. Only thing left is total exclusion of every single Russian athlete.

 

[Tahuu]

...And I am sure that one day those that are cheating will get caught. When you cheat, the victories are all very temporary. You will eventually be caught.

These are the number of cheaters found after IOC retesting samples from Beijing 2008 and London 2012. The sad thing is those deserving medalists had lost their triumphant moments at the victory ceremonies at the Games and otherwise earned sponsorships/opportunities following the Games.

Russia 37
Belarus 16
Kazakhstan 12
Ukraine 11
Azerbaijan 6
Turkey 5
Armenia 4
Moldova 3
China 3
Cuba 2
Uzbekistan 2
Spain 1
Georgia 1
Greece 1
Jamaica 1
Qatar 1

 

[Seerek]

It's not dissimilar to the decision of the IWF (Weightlifting) to ban Russia and Bulgaria from Rio.

IWF has widened its pool of countries banned from this week's World Weightlifting Championships in Anaheim, CA to 9 countries. The 9 countries all had at least 3 positive retests from 2008 and 2012 Olympics.

 

[kwanfan1818]

The difference between a potential ban on Russia for state-sponsored doping and the likelihood of Russia not being the only one is the difference between deal-making in SLC and deal-making elsewhere: someone involved came forward, however reluctantly.

 

[jlai]

Great. So sanction the damn state and leave the athletes out of it.

I don't want to comment on whether Russian athletes should be kept from competing. On the notion of banning Russia from competing, that is not that much different from an economic boycott or sanction even though individuals in the countries are the ones that suffer. Like embargo against Cuba.

I think that kind of thing is either ok or not ok, but it shouldn't be ok if it is in one situation and not ok in another.
So I think if a wholesale ban is not ok, then that whole concept is not ok whether it is sports, political, economical, etc. etc.

 

[skatingguy]

IWF has widened its pool of countries banned from this week's World Weightlifting Championships in Anaheim, CA to 9 countries. The 9 countries all had at least 3 positive retests from 2008 and 2012 Olympics.

Weightlifting is one of the most problematic sports in terms of doping and has been for many decades. It seems like this could be a good step to finally clean this sport up.

 

[Karen-W]

https://www.insidethegames.biz/arti...es-stripped-of-medals-in-latest-ioc-sanctions

3 more Russians banned. 25 total, with 10 cases pending... Of the 36 investigations opened, only ONE athlete, Adelina Sotnikova, has been cleared.

I need to go check and see if there is an open bet in The Bookies as to whether or not Russia is banned from competing in Pyeongchang and, if there is, place my bet.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Am I following the narrative correctly?

1. Before Rio, it was up to the sporting Feds to ban a country (but there was a provision for cleared athletes to compete)

2. Retroactive/re-testing has resulted in clearance for Sotnikova and stripped medals for an increasing number of athletes.

3. The IOC will decide whether to ban Russia completely, taking it out of the hands of the federations, and by banned, they mean allowing Russian athletes to compete, but not with any signs of nationalism, ie, no flags, anthems, team jackets, etc.

 

[skatingguy]

Am I following the narrative correctly?

1. Before Rio, it was up to the sporting Feds to ban a country (but there was a provision for cleared athletes to compete)

2. Retroactive/re-testing has resulted in clearance for Sotnikova and stripped medals for an increasing number of athletes.

3. The IOC will decide whether to ban Russia completely, taking it out of the hands of the federations, and by banned, they mean allowing Russian athletes to compete, but not with any signs of nationalism, ie, no flags, anthems, team jackets, etc.

That's my understanding. The IOC would ban the Russian Olympic Committee which, as you said, would prevent the Russian symbols from the Olympics but allow athletes to compete as independent athletes under the Olympic banner, similar to Kuwait at the Rio 2016 Olympics. If that happens, then it's up to Russia to decide whether they would allow their athletes to compete under those circumstances.

 

[Rock2]

I totally agree with you.



That's the million dollar question! I don't know if there's any correct answer, though.

I don't really think there is, on this timeline.

I have to assume there would need to be a new/upgraded doping process put into place and fully managed by WADA to test all the athletes over a period of months to ensure cleanliness. Time, money, logistics....doubt it.

And I agree with @Jayar that it's a whole other game when doping is state-sponsored. There is little reason to believe they are only doing it in a few places or with a few athletes if the government is running the program.
As for athlete's choice, yes it is for some, but in a state run program you as an athlete show up to train, you are told to take your 'vitamins' or get your 'B12' shot and not ask any questions. Athletes in these countries are completely dependent on the state for support/funding etc so if they don't get with the program they are gone.

What a mess. I hope RUS gets its poop together to be able to participate. If they don't, yeah....whole team = gone. That'd be sad.

 

[caseyedwards]

I don't really think there is, on this timeline.

I have to assume there would need to be a new/upgraded doping process put into place and fully managed by WADA to test all the athletes over a period of months to ensure cleanliness. Time, money, logistics....doubt it.

And I agree with @Jayar that it's a whole other game when doping is state-sponsored. There is little reason to believe they are only doing it in a few places or with a few athletes if the government is running the program.
As for athlete's choice, yes it is for some, but in a state run program you as an athlete show up to train, you are told to take your 'vitamins' or get your 'B12' shot and not ask any questions. Athletes in these countries are completely dependent on the state for support/funding etc so if they don't get with the program they are gone.

What a mess. I hope RUS gets its poop together to be able to participate. If they don't, yeah....whole team = gone. That'd be sad.

In Russia’s system it was not take your vitamins or b12 it was “take your steroids” they were given details on how best to take the steroids and then numbers to send their doping numbers. Everyone who sent their doping numbers knew they were cheating.

 

[casken]

https://www.insidethegames.biz/arti...es-stripped-of-medals-in-latest-ioc-sanctions

3 more Russians banned. 25 total, with 10 cases pending... Of the 36 investigations opened, only ONE athlete, Adelina Sotnikova, has been cleared.

I need to go check and see if there is an open bet in The Bookies as to whether or not Russia is banned from competing in Pyeongchang and, if there is, place my bet.

Is Bobrova considered one of the "cleared" ones, or was that mess different all together?

 

[misskarne]

Is Bobrova considered one of the "cleared" ones, or was that mess different all together?

That was a difference mess of WADA incompetence.

 

[dinakt]

Why not prohibit the disciplines that have been caught in cheating from performing under Russian flag, but leave clean disciplines alone? That way there's punishment, but also leniency to the innocent.

 

[caseyedwards]

Why not prohibit the disciplines that have been caught in cheating from performing under Russian flag, but leave clean disciplines alone? That way there's punishment, but also leniency to the innocent.

Didn’t help solve the problems. Russia only had one athlete in track and field in Rio and it didn’t solve the problems. Not even Russian track and field is fixed. Still have people in closed cities.

 

[rfisher]

I hope somebody considers the fact having Russian athletes present might be a deterrent to North Korea

 

[dinakt]

Didn’t help solve the problems. Russia only had one athlete in track and field in Rio and it didn’t solve the problems. Not even Russian track and field is fixed. Still have people in closed cities.

And if there is a ban to the whole team, the whole Russia will feel victimized and there'll be much more resentment and less willingness to cooperate in the long run.