Gymnastic news #22 - Tokyo or bust

[Theatregirl1122]

Taking the top 4 (or 5) all around isn’t the same as “focusing on trial results” or “rewarding people for doing their best when it counts.” I’m not saying we should base selection on something other than trial results. I’m saying we should base selection on something other than All Around.

The reason I say there’s no strategy is that taking your top 4 all around around gymnasts could easily screw you. The US is so strong that it won’t, but 8-12 years ago it could have when there was a fight for results.

What if our top 4 All Arounders were all weak on vault but made up for it on other events? When you take the top 4 all-arounders, you take a team that is weak on vault. What you need to do is build the strongest team, which isn’t necessarily the same thing as the top 4 all around era. In that case you’d want to take the top two all arounders and then maybe two others who did well on multiple apparatuses but best on vault. You are still rewarding the for their performance “when it matters” (at trials) but counting the team strategy.

Taking the top all arounders in 2016 would have left Madison Kocian and her 15.933 on bars at home as well as Gabby Douglas’s 15.766. None of the top 5 at trials scored about 15 in bars. The US may not have needed the full point each of them brought in bars, but I wouldn’t have taken that bet just to get more people good at the other three events.

Taking the top all arounders in 2012 would have left McKayla Maroney home with the US’s only over 16 score in the team final.

You’re building a team. Yes, you are counting what people do at trials, but when you are drafting a basketball team, you don’t draft the 5 best available players even if they’re all point guards.

 

[dramagrrl]

Looks like Maggie Haney supporters are claiming the Olympic Team selections are karma for Riley. Coming from Maggie’s sister and a supposed USAG Judge.

It is disgusting that fully grown adults would be so publicly vindictive against a teenager. (Even more gross because they are promoting continued abuse by supporting Haney.)

 

[Rob]

Add to your list of conspiracies that this was a "make-up" for how Maggie Nichols was treated in 2016 - Grace McCallum is from the same gym and same coach.

Here he had to decide the full team now, so he went with straight all-around standings, and that was that. I wasn't surprised at all.

ETA: just because I wasn't surprised doesn't mean I like it. I still would have taken Riley as the +1. And I wonder what Tom would have done if she hadn't fallen.

That is what I meant by Grace's coach reported Nassar - and all the fall out. I have always loved Riley (and have not loved MyKayla) and wanted to Riley her as +1 too. I would really like to know what Tom would have done if Riley didn't fall - probably the same Top 5, but at least it might have made it interesting. Would she have been an alternate like Kara? - probably not since she is injured and has not been doing other events like Kara has.

 

[Rob]

Taking the top 4 (or 5) all around isn’t the same as “focusing on trial results” or “rewarding people for doing their best when it counts.” I’m not saying we should base selection on something other than trial results. I’m saying we should base selection on something other than All Around.

Agree, but I think the 5 person team left 1 spot to fill a specialist hole. 4 people makes it tight seeing as there can be injuries after qualifying (like 2004/2008). I think of the +1s as all being specialist spots, but it is Jade's spot that is the true specialist spot. The other +1 was supposed to be earned through the AA World Cups/other comps and was awarded based on team standings at Worlds so it could kind of be an AA specialist spot - which was supposed to be able to go to countries other than the Big 3, but..... I do think of MyKayla as a specialist although her other 2 events got better during NCAAs and she qualified as AA #5.

 

[honey]

What I’ve been pondering is what would have happened if Mykayla had been 4th AA and Grace 5th. Would Tom have just put Mykayla on the team and Grace as the +1? Following his stated logic, he would have. Except this would make even less sense because Grace doesn’t have any EF potential at all. But based on what he said, it seems like that’s what he would have done. Crazy.

 

[Coco]

The draw for the Olympics is out.

FIG - Event Detail - 15571

FIG - Event Detail - 15571

www.gymnastics.sport

At that link, click on "show files" on the right side, then download "13 GAR drawing of lots."

No one ever accused the FIG of being excellent in marketing.

ETA - in the team final, it appears that two countries rotate together, that is nothing new, but unlike in the past, they will go in an alternating fashion. County 1 vaults, then a gymnast from Country 2, then 2nd gymnast from Country 1, 2nd gymnast from Country 2, etc.

I wonder how this will impact uneven bars setup.

 

[ЭPiKUilyam]

I watched the Olympic Trials for US ladies, and one thing stood out, which I think other skating fans might also be thinking. I know Biles is WAY ahead of the other girls. But the commentators are bothering me. As a skate fan, when I see Biles pretty much not stick her routines more often that not, all I hear from the commentators is "WOW!!! The best in the world! She'll take that!!!". I know when I explain skating to people who don't know skating that they trust me for having no bias. My bias is just good technique and execution. But are these commentators just dumbing down to the Walmart crowd? I mean when Biles bounces three feet on her landing, and the commetators don't even comment on it or just discard it, it makes me feel that I'm being lied to. Yes I can see her tightness in rotation, the pointed feet, the amplitude, I'M NOT BLIND. But shouldn't the commentators at LEAST say "Ohh... if only she stuck that landing! This is the most difficult score in the World!!!"? It just seemed like Old Fashioned American commentary where they choose to go with emotions and patriotism instead of focusing on the FACTS and well what's in front of our EYES. At least that's what I noticed about the commentary this past weekend. Biles could do no wrong, even when she did do wrong. I just want honesty. Otherwise it just appears to be American Nationalism full-speed ahead and we can't say ANYTHING negative against our "star".

ETA: It reminded me of all the Pro-Nancy, Pro-America commentators during Lillehamer. Jill Trenary (who I LURVE) was the first and only person when asked about the ladies Lillehamer field had the AUDACITY to say that she felt Oksana was a much better performer than Nancy. She was raked over the coals for daring to say something not glowing about the American star. I felt for Jill. She was just being down to earth and talking in REALITY. I'm not getting this commentary over Biles. They need to focus on her poor landings as if it is something that will set her apart from history. Without sticking the landings it'd be like an American lady who attempts a 4axel and falls out of it and the commentators are all "WOW, that's the most difficult element in history! She's perfect!!!" without mentioning the fall-out. At least for me it is.

 

[canbelto]

It was especially noticeable with the live cam of Simone where she looked visibly disappointed at her own performance and Tim was still like "Wow! Amazing!"

 

[Aceon6]

@ErikWilliam It’s how they roll. It takes a commentator with gravitas to point out flaws. It’s almost as if they think that their criticism may impact future scoring.

 

[VGThuy]

I think that's NBC's style as well. They want to prop up the faves so they can market the stars once the Olympics roll around. Sometimes I think the commentators have their hands tied. Like all of Simone's mistakes did add up to Sunisa Lee beating her on day 2, so they were a big deal. What if happens again in Tokyo where New Life applies? Lee would have been the AA Olympic champion and not Simone.

 

[quartz]

My husband has no clue about gymnastics but he was in the room when I was watching. Every time Tim exclaimed how easy she made it look, the husband‘s like, wut? that looks frigging hard as hell, who’s this guy commentating?? And I just snork in response.

 

[Coco]

There was a story circulating about how when Nastia started with NBC, the producer puts photos of middle Americans at Wal-Mart in front of her while she was on the air to remind her who she was talking to. It was either a picture of a person or a name like Bertha or something.

I'm cursed with only being able to remember 70% of things, lol.

If you watch old vids on youtube of Elfi Schleigel commentating for the CBC, then compare those to her commentary for NBC you will see how dumbed down NBC makes their commentary for gymnastics.

 

[canbelto]

For whatever reason gymnastics is a big red state favorite sport and many gymnasts are also raised very conservatively. Think that accounts for the “rah rah USA” coverage from NBC.

 

[Karen-W]

For whatever reason gymnastics is a big red state favorite sport and many gymnasts are also raised very conservatively. Think that accounts for the “rah rah USA” coverage from NBC.

I don't think so. Gymnastics is pretty big in a lot of Blue Coast states too. It's just big all over the country. Hate to break it to you but there is nothing about NBC's Olympics coverage that is political. If you watched the swimming or track & field trials, it was just as blatantly jingoistic and "Go Team USA!" as the Gymnastics coverage.

In all, honesty, I find their coverage of skating, even US Nats during Olympic years, to be far less jingoistic than any of the coverage of the various Summer Olympics trials I've watched over the decades.

 

[canbelto]

I watched swimming and track. Of course they promote American athletes but gymnastics coverage I find to be more obnoxiously jingoistic. Especially obvious at the Olympics when they cover gymnasts from other countries.

 

[tony]

They are going to dumb it down for the casual four-year fan no matter what. That's how it is and how it always has been in the US. I actually think Tim goes out of his way to really explain some of the intricacies more-so than Tara or Johnny would ever even touch upon (that is, if they even keep up to date with the rule changes -- which I'm not sure they do). We are all on a message board with a much greater than typical knowledge of one sport. Many people carry that over to gymnastics, as well. But for most of America, it's not the case and networks often cater over-the-top to that demographic.

In swimming, how much technique can you actually explain while they are racing down the length of the pool? Few if any casual fans are going to be interested in technique as opposed to watching the race or the the clock for world records. In gymnastics, though, you have most casual fans learning almost instantly what small and big hop deductions are, what out-of-bounds deductions are, what a stuck landing is, etc.

 

[VGThuy]

They are going to dumb it down for the casual four-year fan no matter what. That's how it is and how it always has been in the US. I actually think Tim goes out of his way to really explain some of the intricacies more-so than Tara or Johnny would ever even touch upon (that is, if they even keep up to date with the rule changes -- which I'm not sure they do). We are all on a message board with a much greater than typical knowledge of one sport. Many people carry that over to gymnastics, as well. But for most of America, it's not the case and networks often cater over-the-top to that demographic.

In swimming, how much technique can you actually explain while they are racing down the length of the pool? Few if any casual fans are going to be interested in technique as opposed to watching the race or the the clock for world records. In gymnastics, though, you have most casual fans learning almost instantly what small and big hop deductions are, what out-of-bounds deductions are, what a stuck landing is, etc.

In diving, that woman who my friend says sounds like "Nancy Grace" really goes into detail about technique and scoring. I guess she can get away with it because it's diving. Who knows though. Maybe diving fans think she's dumbing it down too,

 

[MacMadame]

In diving, that woman who my friend says sounds like "Nancy Grace" really goes into detail about technique and scoring. I guess she can get away with it because it's diving. Who knows though. Maybe diving fans think she's dumbing it down too,

I was going to mention Diving as one of the few sports where the commentators do a good job of explaining the sport to casual fans in a way that is engaging and has substance.

 

[Braulio]

So with the drawing of lots out and schedule in, the converted time schedule for those in the US Eastern & Pacific zones will be as follows (I think NBC is not very happy with the women's going at midnight LOL)

Friday July 23 Men's Qualification

Subdivision 1 - MxG1, UKR, ROC, CHN, MxG3 & ESP
9:00-11:30 PM Eastern / 6:00-08:30 PM Pacific

Saturday July 24 Men's Qualification

Subdivision 2 - SUI, BRA, GBR, MxG6, JPN, MxG4
1:30-04:00 AM Eastern / 10:30 PM to 01:00 AM Pacific (Fri to Sat)

Subdivision 3 GER, TPE, MxG5, MxG2, USA, KOR
6:30 AM to 9:00 AM Eastern / 3:30-6:00 AM Pacific

Saturday July 24 Women's Qualification

Subdivision 1 ITA, MxG3, JPN, MxG6
9:00-10:40 PM Eastern / 6:00-7:40 PM Pacific

Subdivision 2 CHN, GBR, MxG7, ROC
10:55 PM-00:35 AM Eastern / 7:55-9:35 PM Pacific

Sunday July 25 Women's Qualification

Subdivision 3 MxG8, NED, MxG1, USA
02:10-03:50 AM Eastern / 11:10 PM-00:50 AM Pacific (Sat to Sun)

Subdivision 4 CAN, MxG4, FRA, ESP
04:05-05:45 AM Eastern / 01:05-02:45 AM Pacific

Subdivision 5 MxG5, GER, MxG2, BEL
7:20-9:00 AM Eastern / 04:20-06:00 AM Pacific

 

[pachelbel]

In diving, that woman who my friend says sounds like "Nancy Grace" really goes into detail about technique and scoring. I guess she can get away with it because it's diving. Who knows though. Maybe diving fans think she's dumbing it down too,

Cynthia Potter is a gem! And no, most diving fans like her while the divers themselves really don't because she doesn't mince words about what she sees. She's not mean but she's not going to ignore even the slightest error. Incredibly constructive commentator.

---

Dave Lease is out here really dropping bombs in the gymnastics world...

From the public humiliation that Maggie is engaging in against a former victim of hers to this...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1410329967464943619

I think USAG needs to be decertified following the Olympics and Worlds. There really is no hope for these people.

---

On a happier note, Laurie Hernandez seems to have come out of the closet!!

 

[Coco]

Cynthia Potter is on a level with Dick Button in terms of impact on her sport and excellence as a commentator. Love her! Nancy Grace can only dream of sounding this good

 

[VGThuy]

Cynthia Potter is a gem! And no, most diving fans like her while the divers themselves really don't because she doesn't mince words about what she sees. She's not mean but she's not going to ignore even the slightest error. Incredibly constructive commentator.

---

Dave Lease is out here really dropping bombs in the gymnastics world...

From the public humiliation that Maggie is engaging in against a former victim of hers to this...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1410329967464943619

I think USAG needs to be decertified following the Olympics and Worlds. There really is no hope for these people.

---

On a happier note, Laurie Hernandez seems to have come out of the closet!!

There's a reply under that Tweet that the screenshot may just be a list of people who wrote letters as part of the hearing, not necessarily all of them being in support of Haney. That poster then unequivocally said that Sarah Jantzi did not write a letter in support of Haney.

 

[pachelbel]

There's a reply under that Tweet that the screenshot may just be a list of people who wrote letters as part of the hearing, not necessarily all of them being in support of Haney. That poster then unequivocally said that Sarah Jantzi did not write a letter in support of Haney.

Said poster is wrong and Sarah absolutely did write the letter in support of Haney.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1410334181096296451

Full document can be found here: https://www.scribd.com/document/501098172/Maggie-Haney-vs-USAG

 

[VGThuy]

Said poster is wrong and Sarah absolutely did write the letter in support of Haney.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1410334181096296451

Full document can be found here: https://www.scribd.com/document/501098172/Maggie-Haney-vs-USAG

Yikes.

 

[pachelbel]

Yikes.

Yep. It's a disturbing look for someone who has received nothing but praise (positive press, Athlete A documentary, etc.) for reporting Maggie Nichol's abuse to be simultaneously minimizing the allegations of another victim. I just... I don't even know what to think anymore.

 

[Doggygirl]

My husband has no clue about gymnastics but he was in the room when I was watching. Every time Tim exclaimed how easy she made it look, the husband‘s like, wut? that looks frigging hard as hell, who’s this guy commentating?? And I just snork in response.

I need to tape record the comments Mr. Doggy makes about the commentary! He always pokes fun at the "Captain Obvious" comments such as "All s/he has to do is __________ and s/he will get a great score!" (land jumps, stay on the beam, make touchdowns/baskets, etc.)

 

[Lizziebeth]

I need to tape record the comments Mr. Doggy makes about the commentary! He always pokes fun at the "Captain Obvious" comments such as "All s/he has to do is __________ and s/he will get a great score!" (land jumps, stay on the beam, make touchdowns/baskets, etc.)

Gymnastics Captain Obvious reports on every landing - stuck or not - like we are all blind

Tell Mr Doggy that I feel his pain!

 

[FiveRinger]

I was going to mention Diving as one of the few sports where the commentators do a good job of explaining the sport to casual fans in a way that is engaging and has substance.

Love Cynthia Potter!!

 

[OlieRow]

The reason I say there’s no strategy is that taking your top 4 all around around gymnasts could easily screw you. The US is so strong that it won’t, but 8-12 years ago it could have when there was a fight for results.

Post-Tokyo will be interesting. Simone will make Tom look competent by likely leading the team to gold and picking up lots of hardware for herself. But after that? Who knows what kind of depth and success they'll have with retirements and athletes moving on to NCAA careers. The juniors have missed out on a number of the opportunities/funding/etc they'd typically have post-Nassar. I don't expect us to fall off the map like Romania but I anticipate we'll be beatable and some strategy in team selection could be important. Not sure Tom's capable of making the hard decisions.

 

[VGThuy]

I do miss it when there was competition, but not because the program gets weaker. I was hoping other programs would have a resurgence and get stronger.