Gymnastic news #22 - Tokyo or bust

VGThuy

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Other than a gymnast like Morgan Hurd or the Dutch in general, I haven't really liked gym floor choreography for nearly anyone in the past like decade maybe more. Except maybe Afanasyeva but after 2012, her FX has gotten even worse than Biles. I liked Biles choreography at first, but it got pretty tired after the third variation of the same thing. At least she's making up for it with some fluidity (which most gymnasts do not have) and way ahead of the curve difficulty, some of which I did not think was possible. She was already ahead of the curve, but she keeps distancing herself further when she doesn't need to. If her FX choreography, which is mostly crap from every gymnast any way, has to suffer because this is where we are at now with gymnastics, then I'm fine with that. I'd complain more if she wasn't pushing the difficulty in a way that is pretty legendary.
 

Rob

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I tolerate McCusker's FX mostly due to their lines, but I agree, Hurd's and a few of the Dutch are the only ones I really like. I could tolerate Liukin's due to her lines too. But they really are not what they used to be.
 

FiveRinger

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I've been silently pleading for Simone to find a choreographer for years. But I'm going to just be content (for now) that she's stopped blowing kisses.
 

Aceon6

Losing patience
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I've been silently pleading for Simone to find a choreographer for years. But I'm going to just be content (for now) that she's stopped blowing kisses.
The OH is still there.
I’m liking some of the Canadian ladies floor routines.
 

Tavi

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So as someone really new to gymnastics, I can’t begin to identify elements in floor routines or assess difficulty.

Can one of you guys briefly explain to me how the difficulty of an NCAA routine (say by Katelyn Ohashi) compares in difficulty to one done by someone at Nationals (leaving aside Simone)?

I can see there’s a big difference and I know part of that is bc of the different scoring systems. But how comparatively “easy” is what Ohashi does? I’m asking in part bc I enjoyed her routine much more than the ones I saw at Nationals. Thanks for any help you can provide!
 

VGThuy

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Ohashi’s routines, last I saw, are much easier. Imagine a program with one or three triples compared to one with five to seven triples. In Simone’s case, add quads. Also, NCAA has the 10 system where difficulty is maxed out at a lower level whereas elite level is open-ended. Also, NCAA has less counted elements than elite. Elite score is also super harsh on execution of elements (though some times you won’t be able to tell) so it adds to the whole stiff way of moving. Imagine that being true across all four apparatuses, and not just FX. Add in a much less happy environment and Olympic-level pressure and coaches who aren’t about nurturing the gymnast as a person (with exceptions of course) and there you go.
 
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Choupette

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Ohashi’s routines, last I saw, are much easier. Imagine a program with one or three triples compared to one with five to seven triples. In Simone’s case, add quads. Also, NCAA has the 10 system where difficulty is maxed out at a lower level whereas elite level is open-ended. Also, NCAA has less counted elements than elite. Elite score is also super harsh on execution of elements (though some times you won’t be able to tell) so it adds to the whole stiff way of moving. Imagine that being true across all four apparatuses, and not just FX. Add in a much less happy environment and Olympic-level pressure and coaches who aren’t about nurturing the gymnast as a person (with exceptions of course) and there you go.
That's a brilliant comparison, comparing gymnastics to figure skating for a figure skating fan! (y)

….Then again, Jade Carey's "choreo" on floor makes Simone look like a dancer from the Bolshoi.
Oh, for sure it's no like she's the only offender. The difference is that it's not like Jade Carey and the others are supposed to go down as the best gymnast ever.
 

VGThuy

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I think WAG should just give up the choreo for womens' floor. i'd love for Simone to do something like this:

I used to fight tooth and nail against that but given the direction elite women's gymnastics has gone in the past 20 years or so, might as well give it up.
 

Tavi

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Ohashi’s routines, last I saw, are much easier. Imagine a program with one or three triples compared to one with five to seven triples. In Simone’s case, add quads. Also, NCAA has the 10 system where difficulty is maxed out at a lower level whereas elite level is open-ended. Also, NCAA has less counted elements than elite. Elite score is also super harsh on execution of elements (though some times you won’t be able to tell) so it adds to the whole stiff way of moving. Imagine that being true across all four apparatuses, and not just FX. Add in a much less happy environment and Olympic-level pressure and coaches who aren’t about nurturing the gymnast as a person (with exceptions of course) and there you go.
Thanks! The comparison to skating - triples and quads versus singles - is really helpful. I knew there was a difference in difficulty but didn’t have a good sense of how great the difference was.
 

Aceon6

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Thanks! The comparison to skating - triples and quads versus singles - is really helpful. I knew there was a difference in difficulty but didn’t have a good sense of how great the difference was.
The other thing is that NCAA tends to have low risk elements because there’s no reward for including anything more than what’s needed to get a 10.0 start value. The top athletes might include a couple of D skills in case they miss on one, but most don’t.
 

mattiecat13

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I agree with @Choupette. Simone's FX choreo over the years has been generic at best and embarrassing at worst. (Seriously, I cringe every time she does one of those stupid "Oh!" with hand-over-mouth gestures in her routines. :yikes: )

….Then again, Jade Carey's "choreo" on floor makes Simone look like a dancer from the Bolshoi.
I watched Jade's FX last night. I really liked the music and if she would put some expression on her face and make her movements more staccato to match the music it would really improve the program (and score a little better). I want to like her but she's just so bland. Show some personality, girl!

Agree about Simone's choreo.
 

Tavi

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The other thing is that NCAA tends to have low risk elements because there’s no reward for including anything more than what’s needed to get a 10.0 start value. The top athletes might include a couple of D skills in case they miss on one, but most don’t.
Thank you, very helpful!

I was really curious in part because you guys were talking about Simone’s choreo or lack of.

I guess I do think it’s kind of silly that the floor exercise requires choreo because it seems like even someone who is naturally musical and a good dancer wouldn’t be able to do much in between the required tumbling passes. For me it doesn’t make the routines more interesting. I guess I’d rather see someone like Simone just do the tumbling passes because her form and technique (and of course her difficulty) seems so amazing.
 

Rob

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I read that there is a camp in early Sept, then another selection camp in late September. According to USA today, Tom Forster confirmed that the entire Pan American team would be invited to worlds selection camp regardless of results at the national championships. https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/olympics/2019/08/12/olympics-five-gymnasts-who-could-join-simone-biles-2020-team/1982469001/

So add Aleah Finnegan to the members of the National Team who were announced at Nationals. Maybe Shilese Jones too since she was the Pam Am alternate, although she did not travel. Not sure who else.
2019-20 Senior Women's National Team: Simone Biles Jade Carey Jordan Chiles Kara Eaker Morgan Hurd Sunisa Lee Grace McCallum Riley McCusker MyKayla Skinner Trinity Thomas Leanne Wong
 

Rob

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Wow, it looks like it depends on who goes first on floor during WC, it might be named a Carey, not a Biles.
 

VGThuy

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Wow, it looks like it depends on who goes first on floor during WC, it might be named a Carey, not a Biles.
I think the rule now is that if two or more gymnasts introduce a new skill at a WC, it’ll get named after both of them.
 

danafan

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I think the rule now is that if two or more gymnasts introduce a new skill at a WC, it’ll get named after both of them.
Section 7 page -3 of WAG COP:

c) No element will be named if there is more than one gymnast who has performed it for the first time
 

Erin

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Section 7 page -3 of WAG COP:

c) No element will be named if there is more than one gymnast who has performed it for the first time
While that may be what's written in the COP, their actual practice seems to have changed since that was written. The Derwael-Fenton was awarded both names in Montreal, according to this video on the FIG's official site:

ETA - I was also able to track down the release from FIG approving the new element with both names:
 
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danafan

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My apologies. As written in newsletter 42 in November 2017, which supersedes the code: "If more than one gymnast at the same competition performs the same new element, the element will be named after all gymnasts."
 

Aceon6

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I can see Skinner doing it for the D score, but her deductions are going to be brutal. I wish she’d spend the time working on her form instead.
 

OnyxRose81

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Piling on the difficulty didn’t help her in 2016; in fact, she concentrated on that at the expense of form. It’s not going to be any different this quad. That triple-double is nowhere close to being competition ready.
 

Rob

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She’s not going to make any team without the difficulty. Too many other choices who will always have better form.
 

vanillashake

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Yeah she pretty much needs to pack on as much difficulty she can and hope she doesn't look like she is badly chucking it too much. If her only route of making the team as an All Arounder, she needs to be a much better All Around than ever before, strong on beam, and stronger than ever on floor. Her only hope is much more difficulty than any of the others besides Biles, and as good of execution as she can muster.
 

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