From Russia with Love [#35]: Winter 2019

Michalle

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ok, I don't love the use of masculine here either; however, my interpretation of what Eteri said was that Trusova's approach to her skating is one that is more typically found in male skaters rather than that she herself is male/masculine. Maybe this is a distinction without a difference I don’t know, it feels a little different to me. Anyone who works with a lot of students over time will see patterns of behavior I think. I thought I saw another translation without the whole Russian/Japanese/Russian/English journey that went into a little more detail in that section but I can't find it now.
 
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nuge

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Sports.ru podcast with Ruslan Zhiganshin


As a skater he used to hate their Russian folk OD and even asked his older sister to talk to the coaches and change the music, but coaches word is a law, so he couldn't do anything with it.

That dress reminds me of Pasha's 96 OD Latin one :shuffle:
 

skatingguy

Golden Team
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I stand corrected!
Come to think of it, Chris Hemsworth had hair like that in the first two Thor movies.

My point was that Trusova doesn’t present herself as “masculine” imo. She’s scrappy and hardworking, but those qualities have nothing to do with gender.
I think the gender norms that we have started to move away from in North America are still more strictly observed in a country like Russia.
 
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kwanfan1818

I <3 Kozuka
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32,027
Mishin said something similar years ago about preferring hungry skaters.

I assume Tutberidze meant that Trusova's approach and reactions are more similar to the boys and men who train that the girls and women who train.
 
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barbarafan

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Mishin said something similar years ago about preferring hungry skaters.

I assume Tutberidze mean that Trusova's approach and reactions are more similar to the boys and men who train that the girls and women who train.
I agree. There is a certain type of person which is usually found in men however which is also though not as often found in women. I have worked with this type of woman and sorry would express the sentiment that she is just like a men. Only able to think of the next goal and focus and block the other things out until that goal is met Whereas women seem to usually be able to be concentrated on a goal while weighing and balancing the other things in the back of their mind and making sure what needs to happen happens. The type of person(one track mind), man or woman needs to have a team following them cleaning up their messes.But I digress.
 

Rina RUS

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I think the gender norms that we have started to move away from in North America are still more strictly observed in a country like Russia.
"Strictly"? :) Well, maybe it is the right word for some nations in Russia, but as for Russians... I wouldn't say: "strictly".
Yes, some Russian women still look like this:
Many of us enjoy it.
Yet Russians also say, that a Russian woman can stop a running horse and enter a burning house. It is not as simple as "these are the rules for girls, those are the rules for boys".
(maybe... that's why some Russians can be even agressive, when they defend such traditions. Maybe they just would like to "live happily ever after" in a world as beautiful as a fairy tale: women are as beautiful as birds, men are... stronger than those women who can stop a running horse) :)
In short... I just mean it is not as simple as the word "strictly".
 
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Mad for Skating

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I think the gender norms that we have started to move away from in North America are still more strictly observed in a country like Russia.
TBH, I think all countries will continue to have some people who stick to the traditional gender norm and some who don’t. It’s fine.
Trusova may be a fierce competitor, but she still seems like a girly girl to me.
 

rfisher

Let the skating begin
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TBH, I think all countries will continue to have some people who stick to the traditional gender norm and some who don’t. It’s fine.
Trusova may be a fierce competitor, but she still seems like a girly girl to me.
And you just used a very traditional gender norm in calling her a girly girl. :lol:
 

Mad for Skating

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And you just used a very traditional gender norm in calling her a girly girl. :lol:
Oops, not what I meant.
I was just trying to say that if Eteri still believes in the traditional gender norms, I don’t see how a girl with Rapunzel hair and the chihuahua from Legally blonde is traditionally “masculine”. It seems like Eteri is contradicting herself a bit :)
 

ChiquitaBanana

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I just don’t get the debate about what Eteri said... My mom would always tell me I had a boy’s brain (I am pretty straightforward and practical) but never I never thought she said I was masculine... Doug Leigh would tell people that Jennifer Robinson wanted to be trained like the boys and that she has that energy.
My daughter was a boy’s energy as se is very active, loves to fight, but still like to do dress up and put on Dresses.
Eteri is far from being perfect but this call is 👀 for me...
 

muffinplus

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TBH, I think all countries will continue to have some people who stick to the traditional gender norm and some who don’t. It’s fine.
Trusova may be a fierce competitor, but she still seems like a girly girl to me.
You ( and others) didn't understand what Eteri was saying...she didnt say she is masculine... the reference was to her attitude/personality
 

Wyliefan

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I hope Kostornaia wins this year's Worlds. Probably this is her last chance to do become World Champion.
She may, but at this point my money is on Shcherbakova. She seems to have the mental toughness that it usually takes to win the biggest titles.
 

skatingguy

Golden Team
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"Strictly"? :) Well, maybe it is the right word for some nations in Russia, but as for Russians... I wouldn't say: "strictly".
Yes, some Russian women still look like this:
Many of us enjoy it.
Yet Russians also say, that a Russian woman can stop a running horse and enter a burning house. It is not as simple as "these are the rules for girls, those are the rules for boys".
(maybe... that's why some Russians can be even agressive, when they defend such traditions. Maybe they just would like to "live happily ever after" in a world as beautiful as a fairy tale: women are as beautiful as birds, men are... stronger than those women who can stop a running horse) :)
In short... I just mean it is not as simple as the word "strictly".
I understand what you're saying. I was making a comparison to North America where gender norms are being challenged, and the notion of gender as being a binary descriptor is now frequently seen as discriminatory, and harmful.
 

Moka-Ananas

Smirking with Eteri
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To address everyone disturbed by the "male" quote by Eteri:
In Russia, men are considered to be the powerful ones who always seek the challenge and are enduring. I think it's because the men, historically seen, were always the ones to fight in the wars and to be strong. (I know there were also a bunch of Russian women fighting.)

When I was little, my aunt would also tell my brother: "I'd sooo take you with me on the hiking trips with my pupils. You are a real Russian man!" because he always showed an endurance and power during, for instance, our long walks or our mushroom tours. My sister and I would soon complain about being tired, our feet hurting etc.

But then again, I was also considered having a "male" character because I was very much of a tomboy in my childhood. The Russian mentality is crazy and you shouldn't interpret too much into it.
 

Perky Shae Lynn

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I think the gender norms that we have started to move away from in North America are still more strictly observed in a country like Russia.
Not my experience at all working with Russian women. They are very strong, and are expected to be strong performers and leaders. My company actually has more women in senior management positions in Russia than in the US and Canada. I asked a Russian colleague about that, and she told me that historically Russian women had to take on a lot of responsibility in the workplace because so many men perished in the wars. Girls were expected to grow up to be doctors, managers, scientists, engineers, etc. - and we are talking 1950s, not 2000s.
 

Moka-Ananas

Smirking with Eteri
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Not my experience at all working with Russian women. They are very strong, and are expected to be strong performers and leaders. My company actually has more women in senior management positions in Russia than in the US and Canada. I asked a Russian colleague about that, and she told me that historically Russian women had to take on a lot of responsibility in the workplace because so many men perished in the wars. Girls were expected to grow up to be doctors, managers, scientists, engineers, etc. - and we are talking 1950s, not 2000s.
True. The Soviet Union actually had many more women in leading positions in companies etc. than a lot of countries even now.
 

lala

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The Useful Advices rubric :)

(sorry, it was... just a funny link)
He said the truth. That is the truth. Unfortunately Zhenya has no chance anymore. We all know the younger skaters they have tech points in the sky.

Definitely under the rubric "Things Plushenko is an expert in"
Yes, we can say he is an expert. After his 33 years in FS he was 4 when he started. And you know I heard about him before 2010 before...... many times he should retire because he has no chance, he should retire bc he should allow the youngs he won everything..With this logic Yuzuru also should retire but you read this anywhere? Probably not. Always the double standard


It’s a key word here. Because he wants her in his shows.

In this interview he said that both Evgenia and Alina make very little money because of poor management unlike his 7 yo son :rolleyes:
Yes, probably he would be happy if she skates in his shows. But since 2014 his first grandiouse ice show the shows has cca 100-170 000 viewers every years ( depends on how many days were held) His shows don't need Med to be succesful.

How outrageously bad guy he is! He said on funny way the skaters need good agent if they want to earn more money?! Where do you live? Your hipocricy sometimes is really funny.

Plushenko is acting on behalf of his business. And on his wife's. They are pretty much doing everything in order to produce an even more scandalous second season of their real-life show (aka "The Russian Kardashians") than the first one.
OMG! That stupidity! I don't understand why he lets Yana do it? He lost the war again......
If I look their IGs I can see their priorities in their life. On Plush's academy are learning almost 100 little skaters, maintenance of buildings, overheads, organise the shows, the new construction, etc. He has enough tasks, but if I want to be honest Yana is also succesful in her business, but she has energy for the evening glitter. https://www.instagram.com/p/B83XIwlIb3J/

But I like this https://www.instagram.com/p/B8rEPZUIJDU/
 

skatingguy

Golden Team
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Not my experience at all working with Russian women. They are very strong, and are expected to be strong performers and leaders. My company actually has more women in senior management positions in Russia than in the US and Canada. I asked a Russian colleague about that, and she told me that historically Russian women had to take on a lot of responsibility in the workplace because so many men perished in the wars. Girls were expected to grow up to be doctors, managers, scientists, engineers, etc. - and we are talking 1950s, not 2000s.
I think a few things have changed in Russia since the 1950's, and even since the early 2000's.
 

Ka3sha

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Not my experience at all working with Russian women. They are very strong, and are expected to be strong performers and leaders. My company actually has more women in senior management positions in Russia than in the US and Canada. I asked a Russian colleague about that, and she told me that historically Russian women had to take on a lot of responsibility in the workplace because so many men perished in the wars. Girls were expected to grow up to be doctors, managers, scientists, engineers, etc. - and we are talking 1950s, not 2000s.
As someone who wrote master thesis on Russian women's movement in Russian Empire, I'd mostly agree with you, but it happened not only because of the wars but also due to communist principles.
Anyway, that's for sure an interesting topic for discussion, but maybe this thread isn't the best place for one?
 
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analia

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Everybody knows Russian men are hopeless drunks. Russian women do all the work AND outlive their male counterparts by a good 30 years. To call Trusova a man is certainly an insult, that she will crash and burn like a Kovtun let's say, no?
 

Rina RUS

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Anyway, that's for sure an interesting topic for discussion, but maybe this thread isn't the best place for one?
Maybe. Yet somehow this thread is the best place to say, that every Russian word is offensive or that Russians just follow some strict gender norms. :)

Not every comparison to a man is offensive. For example, the Russian word "muzhestvenny" means "as brave/stoical as a real man", but I'd say it's absolutely OK to say so about a woman (or a girl), and it doesn't mean this woman isn't womanly.

Do you know this joke?
"Congratulations on having a baby! Is it a boy or a girl?"
"He'll decide it on his own, when he'll grow up."

Michael Jackson did his dangerous surgeries for another reason, but isn't it sad, that he thought he couldn't be happy without destroying his health (having that skin which he had)? Yes, he was an adult person, he had a right to make a decision, but isn't it sad, that he chose the way he chose?
I think... it is not only about rights, not only about living without hating each other. Not as simple as "we've no right to worry, if a person cuts himself, but doesn't cut us". I think for Russians it is not as simple as that - especially, when Russians think about their kids, their families. I think it's not about following gender norms.

As for talking... Russians use such new strict words as "ageism", but it seems I like, when such words sound just like a joke: "Wow, isn't this ageism?" - and after these words people are able to continue talking friendly, without spoiling relationship. :)
 

DELTA

Active Member
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Everybody knows Russian men are hopeless drunks. Russian women do all the work AND outlive their male counterparts by a good 30 years. To call Trusova a man is certainly an insult, that she will crash and burn like a Kovtun let's say, no?
This is a joke, right?
 

Japanfan

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22,458
I understand what you're saying. I was making a comparison to North America where gender norms are being challenged, and the notion of gender as being a binary descriptor is now frequently seen as discriminatory, and harmful.

Yet Russians also say, that a Russian woman can stop a running horse and enter a burning house. It is not as simple as "these are the rules for girls, those are the rules for boys".
There are many such sayings about women, which IMO are often intended to make them feel better about themselves. For example, 'the woman wears the pants in the family' - which essentially means a woman behaves like a man, and is not a compliment IMHO.

In Japan they say, or used to say, 'the women are ruling the country from underground'. Largely because they handled the finances. But they are/were not ruling the country. None or few of them were/are in positions of power with government or industry that allowed them to allocate/spend some of the public purse.

I wonder if the term battle-axe has gone out of favor? IMO it is a pejorative term, but I know others feel differently and consider it a badge of honor.

There definitely are rules for girls and boys, although they are more flexible in certain parts of the world - but still rigid in others. And there are now more women in positions of power. When I was growing up in the 60s, I don't think it ever occurred to me that a woman could be a mayor, let alone the leader of a country. Thankly there are most of those now, serving as potential role models for girls.
 
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Rina RUS

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There are many such sayings about women, which IMO are often intended to make them feel better about themselves.
The words about a woman stopping a running horse and entering a burning hut are not an equivalent of "wearing the pants". These words belong to the Russian poet Nekrasov. The poem starts with the words "Some women in Russian villages..." and doesn't compare women to men. It was written in 19th century.

As for "wearing the pants", some Russians say, that "a man is the head, but a woman is the neck". These words mean, that he looks in that direction which she chooses. I don't like these words. Though I think partly they are right: sometimes a woman doesn't even bother to "wear the pants", because she can give advices.

Actually, I don't want to argue.

It is just a bit tiresome, if almost any word "is now frequently seen as discriminatory and harmful". :)
 

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