Does there need to be another PCS and GOE crackdown?

[KimGOAT]

IMO PCS have become too elevated in all events (dance, pairs, mens, and ladies) to properly differentiate. While for instance I wouldnt be saying someone like Patrick Chan should be winning with how badly he is being outjumped, he doesnt even have the slightest chance to make up the base value gap, or even a decent amount of the base value gap on any of his chief competitors unless they bomb as even skaters like Boyang and Chen are getting high 8s in PCS, meaning Uno and an in form Kolyada must get low to mid 9s, which means Fernandez, Hanyu, and Chan can all max out in the 96-100 range at their best making gaining much/any ground on anyone in his real strength nearly impossible for someone like Chan.

It means someone like Nathan Chen, who I like a lot btw, is nearly unbeatable if he rotates his 6 quads, even if he falls on a couple of them, and lands atleast 2 or 3 of them cleanly. Even by an utterly perfect Hanyu. And while I dont think Chen is the jumping bean some betray him and think he has some very nice qualities, his spins are atleast on par with all the other top men (Fernandez, Hanyu, Chan) for instance, and some nice positioning and sense of music, his overall skating is still not developed to the point this should be the case to this extent even with his difficulty edge.

It means as we saw the other night a skater like Zagitova who has significantly inferior presentation and artistry to atleast 4 of her competitors, and doesnt even have the best quality elements, is nearly unbeatable if she goes clean simply since she does a bit harder program than the others. Since the PCS for the top girls only ranges from 74-77, basically tieing them all, as the bar has been set that low.

In ice dance it is arguably the worst as teams like Virtue & Moir and Papadakis & Cizeron can get nearly straight 10s meaning the gold medal is sure to be determined by just 1 missed level, as happened (pretty much) to V&M at the GPF and P&C losing gold just due to 1 level 3 in the SD. I am not arguing which of those results were right or wrong, just in general pointing out how silly it has gotten.

+3s are too easy to get, so differentiating yourself from someone else good on GOE is nearly impossible as well. So there needs to be a crackdown on GOE and PCS scoring in general. Otherwise the titles and medals will be increasingly determined by only difficulty and nothing else, which is not the direction the sport needs to go. Difficulty should be a factor in the placements for sure, a big one, but not the only one.

 

[handomi]

Chen isn't unbeatable. Hanyu holds untouchable for now records set with less quads than Chen is doing

 

[KimGOAT]

As much as I love Hanyu, and I do think at this stage he is a better overall skater than even Chen at this best, especialy when his jump difficulty is also insanely high (while clearly lower than Chen's still), I think Chen going clean would be unbeatable. I am well aware of Hanyu's record marks.

However consider this. Chen scored a 217 with a missed quad and skating in an early flight. Skating in the final flight, hitting that 6th quad beautifully his score would probably be in the 230 range. This is significantly higher than even Hanyu's best scores.

Hanyu's LP at the Games was also nearly clean and got destroyed by Chen. He probably has lost a bit of the steam and amplitude he used to have to get the 222-225 scores he once did even clean, let alone the 230 type score the rough indications are we could expect Chen to get given how judges are currently scoring.

 

[judgejudy27]

It would be incredible to see Chen and Hanyu both skate 2 clean programs to see who would come out ahead. I would love to see that scenario play out, and I hope Hanyu continues long enough for it to potentially happen.

The interesting thing about Hanyu is he has never skated 2 perfect programs in a World or Olympic event. Although he has at the Grand Prix final, a huge event, and numerous other smaller events.

 

[Polaris]

Hanyu's LP at the Games was also nearly clean and got destroyed by Chen. He probably has lost a bit of the steam and amplitude he used to have to get the 222-225 scores he once did even clean, let alone the 230 type score the rough indications are we could expect Chen to get given how judges are currently scoring.

No, Hanyu left out a quad combo among other things, and that alone is double-digit points he left on the table right there. If clean, he would've scored much higher.

 

[MAXSwagg]

Clean Hanyu in the LP would've gotten 220+. The fact of the matter is no one is coming close to his top total scores which he did with only THREE quads in the FS.

To answer the question, yes. Skaters with very poor jump technique that are not aesthetically pleasing are getting high GOEs, and it is not fair to those who have nearly impeccable jump technique. This is just one example.

PCS, especially in ladies, is a complete joke and has been for several seasons. And what is the point of having five components that make up a good program if judges essentially give the same mark across all components? Nathan Chen, Boyang Jin, and Shoma Uno should not be getting really above 8.25 for transitions, and the performances of Chen and Jin in the FS especially should warrant transitions marks in the 6s (6s being marginally better than average according to the ISUs own definitions). And outside of Hanyu, Fernandez, and to a lesser extent Uno, they do not interpret what is going on in the music much either because of those quads. I wouldn't not call those "good" performances per se (7s being good according to the ISU). Skating skills, ha. The only people who should be getting near or above 9s for those are Chan, Hanyu (9.50+) and Fernandez and Uno (8.75-9.25).

Similarly, for the women, Satoko got absolutely ROBBED in components. Med and Zag got ≈9.50 for skating skills, which I could see awarding those for transitions (maybe) but I'm sorry they are not near the caliber of cleanness and sureness of edges and knee bend, ease and flow, etc. as Satoko and Carolina. Those two should be around 9.25, with Med and Zag around 8.75 at best. Osmond around 9.00 also. Program construction is also a joke in ladies.

Across all disciplines, falls and other major mistakes and multiple minor mistakes need to be punished more harshly. A performance with a fall is not what I would call "good" and as such should not be getting a performance mark of greater than really 8.00. Interpretation should also be impacted. You may be able to come back from a fall or major mistake and interpret but you are not interpreting to the best of your ability. It needs to DROP! Choreography also. Unless you think mistakes are a part of the choreography...

Recall the component descriptors:

10.00 = outstanding (essentially an old 6.0)
9.00 = Excellent (essentially an old 5.9/6.0)
8.00 = very good
7.00 = good
5.00 = average

 

[judgejudy27]

One big problem I have is the same as the above poster, that they score all PCS categories the same so why even bother having 5 categories. Skaters are ranked the same way vs each other in each which is ridiculous, since in some cases skaters might be superior to another in all, but they dont always compare the same way vs others in one as another.

For instance, unless it is a performance he really mops up the ice which should affect skating skills scores Chan should always get the top skating skills mark. Clearly nobody bests him there, even today. Fernandez should almost every single time though get the top performance mark. Some of the other top guys are strong here too, but nobody can perform to the extent he does, and entertain the crowd with that much personality and relaxation, while still doing the hard jump content as he can. Yet you will see Chan with lower skating skill points (lately) than Hanyu, Fernandez, and most ridiculously Uno. You see Fernandez with lower performance marks than Hanyu and Chan often. This makes no sense. And transitions I would say Chan used to be tops, but in the last few years Hanyu is tops, but again you have times someone like Fernandez whose weakest PCS category is probably transitions is on top there instead (sometimes he is on top in transitions but not in peformance, WTF). Just all around it is messed up. And it has been for years. Sasha Cohen would often get higher skating skill marks than Slutskaya, Arakawa, and Suguri. Quite the joke, you might as well not even bother having a mark called skating skills. Yet in turn Slutskaya would get equal or higher marks in say interpretation to Cohen or choreography to Kwan (ok granted Kwans COP era programs werent her best but still). Just all around they blanket the PC scores and they make no sense, and it has been that way since COP came out.