Coughlin's Safe Sport Status Changed to Interim Suspension

[Clarys91]

A death outside a medical facility and outside ongoing medical care means an autopsy in most jurisdictions, along with a coroner's report later. I imagine that will take weeks as they are probably including a toxicology report.

I can imagine that there are plenty of costs associated with a funeral, including having family members attend. I had to oversee my brother's tragic death which required specialized cleaning of the apartment (yeah, it was as bad as it sounds).

Yes let's see what the final report says.

I'm always a little baffled at people/family members asking for money on the Net to cover the funeral costs of a relative. I mean, we are all mortals, it's not like it's an unexpected surprise, aren't we supposed to have funds saved for that purpose? Unless of course you are barely making ends meet and live in dire conditions. But I don't have the impression that is the case for elite skaters.

 

[overedge]

Just because SafeSport has a policy doesn’t mean they are following it.

Given the lawyered-up world we live in and the disastrous cases in other sports where procedures weren't followed, I think they would be very careful to follow the policies.

 

[CaliSteve]

What does that mean to be informed about the nature of the investigation? You are being investigated for inappropriate sexual conduct. Go defend yourself. I get why he wasn't given the details, if those details would expose the victims, or compromise the investigation in any way. But being informed of the nature of the investigation doesn't mean much as far as defending oneself goes. In this case, once the suspension was handed, I am sure John was given enough information to understand why the suspension was warranted.

https://safesport.org/policies-procedures

 

[TallyT]

His financial affairs are none of our business unless we are planning to donate and ask for more information before doing so. And probably not even then.

I don't think we have any place discussing it here.

 

[Clarys91]

You didn't ask--you posted baseless speculation. And are persisting in this line even after your non-question was answered.

If you want to continue this, send me a PM.

I didn't spell out the word 'ask' for sure, but we are here to discuss and by definition raise questions aren't we? I guess I don't understand the concept of this online form, sorry.

 

[rfisher]

@SpeedySucks that's one person's version of what happened to them. @peibeck has posted the SafeSport policy on information given to the subject of complaints.

Why confuse people with facts when speculation is so much more interesting.

 

[peibeck]

Just because SafeSport has a policy doesn’t mean they are following it.

And the USFS agrees to suspending one of its star members, as well as the USOC? Wow, do you believe in the Deep State too? How about little grey men?

 

[Clarys91]

Ladies and gentlemen, this is sealioning

It is called free speech, which includes raising sometimes unpopular opinions or uncomfortable questions just for the sake of a democratic debate - which is one of the initial purposes of online forums on the Internet. The aim is not to demean anyone. On the contrary, I respect all opinions here.

 

[overedge]

There's "uncomfortable questions" and then there's insensitive unfounded BS.

 

[Prancer]

It is called free speech

This is a privately owned board with its own posting rules. You have a PM.

 

[CaliSteve]

It is called free speech, which includes raising sometimes unpopular opinions or uncomfortable questions just for the sake of a democratic debate - which is one of the initial purposes of online forums on the Internet. The aim is not to demean anyone. On the contrary, I respect all opinions here.

I know you do not mean to demean and that you respect all opinions, but some of your theories are nutty.

 

[Clarys91]

This is a privately owned board with its own posting rules. You have a PM.

I am sorry if I have offended people here with my questions/comments, that was certainly not my intention. I do understand that this forum is not for me since there are such restrictions on free speech. In my world there are no 'stupid questions' and I myself would not demean anyone by calling their questions/comments 'conspiracy crap'.

 

[puglover]

I think the "Me Too" movement has caused a lot of people to look at certain situations in their own lives and question them. Courage can be contagious! On the other hand, there may be more false accusations as people realize some pretty powerful people have been brought down by accusers. The Jeanie in the bottle is out. I hope we are never going back to the abuse of power that has gone on. At least with SafeSport, there is a mechanism to bring complaints forward and be vetted by trained and competent investigators before they go any further - I hope

 

[Clarys91]

I know you do not mean to demean and that you respect all opinions, but some of your theories are nutty.

That's the beauty of it, when you are inclusive rather than exclusive, sometimes in all the nutty things you find a gem (not to say that my comments were gems, just speaking in general about public discourse).

 

[Clarys91]

There's "uncomfortable questions" and then there's insensitive unfounded BS.

At least 'I' didn't call anyone's opinion here 'bullshit'

 

[Kasey]

At least 'I' didn't call anyone's opinion here 'bullshit'

If that's your only defense of your behavior and yourself, maybe it's time-out time....

 

[Prancer]

This is not the Clarys91 thread any more.

Carry on.

 

[Aerobicidal]

Warning: this post will be long and tangential in some ways, but telling this story is my way to process my emotions and thoughts in the best way I can.

For six years in the '00s, I was a coach for nationally competitive high school debate teams. Without trying to stretch a comparison between national circuit debate and figure skating (which wouldn't take much), I do think it's true that both are insular activities with strange power dynamics. Personal boundaries get blurred and broken and adults have access to vulnerable teenagers who want to be competitively successful but also socially accepted.

For most of the time I was coaching and six years after I quit, a very prominent debate coach ("Coach J") in the community was contacting very large numbers of teenage boys and paying them for sending him pictures of them, including sexually explicit pictures. I should say here as a disclaimer that there are substantial differences between the cases of Coach J and Coughlin. Coach J was undoubtedly guilty, the types of allegations are different, he went to prison, is still alive, etc.

I knew Coach J from 2003 to 2009 as a colleague. I saw him at tournaments and a summer camp where we both worked. He quickly became a prominent figure in the debate community because he seemed extremely nice and supportive of every coach and student. He would reach out to people from under-represented schools and areas and try to help them learn about national style debate. For most of the time I knew him, I admired him because he was such a strong advocate for students but also because I genuinely thought his presence as an out gay man in the community gave students the ability to see a role model or at least a highly respected adult who was queer and passionate about gender and sexual inclusivity.

There were a few questionable things I knew of, though. Most obviously, he would often have male debaters visiting him at college stay in his dorm room, take pictures of them together, and put that on blogs accessible to anyone in debate. This is hyper specific, but I remember on his Friendster page (now there's a throwback!) he listed a few questionable things under his "likes" including boys' bare feet, which turned out to be--from reading the media coverage of his arrest--alarmingly accurate. I did hear one vague rumor right before I quit coaching, but I didn't feel like there was much I could do aside from have a general talk with my debaters about being skeptical of adults in the community/etc. and trying to follow up on the rumor with trusted adults, which didn't lead anywhere.

Apparently between 2009 and 2015--when he was arrested--the subject of Coach J's illegal activity was well known, at least to a certain percentage of the community. I was completely out of touch with debate and had no idea about the "open secret," but that's how many people characterized it when the arrest became public. However, there were others involved in debate who thought Coach J's reputation was flawless. I read a quote from an area coach that said, basically, "I never heard anything untoward about him."

After he was arrested, there was a gigantic outpouring of support for Coach J by his students and their families. And here's why that surprised me: the news of his arrest included an extensive PDF file that included graphic conversations he was having on an app called Kik on which he pretended to be a high school student. Reading those transcripts was absolutely chilling because I could hear his voice and it made me question every interaction I ever had with him, every time I saw him, every time I wondered about his role in debate. It made me wonder if this story would exacerbate disgusting assumptions that gay men are abusers, especially gay teachers/coaches. And of course, it made me wonder if anything had happened to my debaters.

He was sentenced to what I thought was a very lenient amount of time in prison and has already been let out. I've had countless discussions about the case with dozens of people I knew, and here are some concluding thoughts:

Information and power (which, of course, are related) operate in very strange ways, perhaps especially in insular communities. In this case, people consistently reacted--or didn't react--in ways that I wouldn't have expected, including the lasting support for Coach J even at his sentencing. (The Times' report of it seriously sounds like the "o captain my captain" scene from Dead Poet's Society, and the idea of that happening at the sentencing of a convicted child pornographer is just unbelievably bizarre to me.)

Seeing someone I respected get caught and punished for abusing hundreds of people, including several I knew, is not only horribly depressing but also makes me question so many things. Of course, I wonder if I could have done something, but I also wonder if his criminal actions negate all the positive things Coach J created in debate and, from what I've consistently heard, as a teacher.

The deck is stacked against accusers and survivors--in coming forward, being trusted, feeling safe, etc.--in so many ways: structural, institutional, but also casual, minor, visible or invisible. At the same time, even though it means making people sadder/angrier/more accusatory, I believe it is worth discussing and implementing changes to help survivors even if they might make things a little bit more difficult for the accused.

Did that happen in the Coughlin case? I have no idea. It's certainly arguable, but that's not the point. Also, suicide further complicates everything, which is why I am intentionally not commenting on that aspect of the case.

 

[Vera Costa]

Skaters who are posting tributes without acknowledging the victims and skaters who like, or share those tributes are a part of the problem.

Here’s the thing, these skaters are in the public sphere and thus have a larger amount of power and influence. Their posts gets like or retweets in the hundreds/thousands. A victim seeing those posts and the huge amount of support for Coughlin, some outright defending him, without any acknowledgement or support of their own pain is going to think twice about coming foreword because it can feel like everyone is prioritizing his/her abuser.

I’m not saying they’re not allowed to grieve. They are. But do it in private or if you want it public, maybe say ‘This is a terribly confusing time, please give me the space to grieve. I will post further when I am ready to discuss it’. Not that hard. Posting multiple pictures/videos of him, talking about how wonderful he was, etc. is unnecessary. It’s nice that they saw a good side of him. But he isn’t being accused of something banal here, he’s being accused of abuse. He may have displayed a pleasant side to them but someone else saw a much darker side and these skaters not acknowledging that while praising him makes light of how terrible these allegations really are.

 

[rfisher]

In regard to @Aerobicidal's very insightful post, people don't want to acknowledge dark things about people they admire because they have to question themselves. It is easier to deny and deflect. It's also much harder when you eventually have to accept that truth. A relative told me something about another relative and I refused to believe them. Was certain they made it up out of spite. Until I found out they were telling the truth and nothing was ever the same again.

 

[UGG]

Skaters who are posting tributes without acknowledging the victims and skaters who like, or share those tributes are a part of the problem.

Here’s the thing, these skaters are in the public sphere and thus have a larger amount of power and influence. Their posts gets like or retweets in the hundreds/thousands. A victim seeing those posts and the huge amount of support for Coughlin, some outright defending him, without any acknowledgement or support of their own pain is going to think twice about coming foreword because it can feel like everyone is prioritizing his/her abuser.

I’m not saying they’re not allowed to grieve. They are. But do it in private or if you want it public, maybe say ‘This is a terribly confusing time, please give me the space to grieve. I will post further when I am ready to discuss it’. Not that hard. Posting multiple pictures/videos of him, talking about how wonderful he was, etc. is unnecessary. It’s nice that they saw a good side of him. But he isn’t being accused of something banal here, he’s being accused of abuse. He may have displayed a pleasant side to them but someone else saw a much darker side and these skaters not acknowledging that while praising him makes light of how terrible these allegations really are.

I agree. Obviously we do not know the facts, but there are 3 victims who came forward. John Coughlin isn't some famous beloved sports figure outside of fans who follow figure skating. I find it hard to imagine that a bunch of people decided to frame him in sexual assault allegations. What would be the motive for three people to make this up?

I am neutral here as I do not follow pairs and I really don't know a lot about John and would never wish false allegations on anyone, however I really don't see what the motivation would be to do this to him? If he were a big superstar I guess I could see a money motive but other than that, what would the motive of 2 minors to lie about sexual assault?

 

[Kasey]

The person who abused me as a child was a very well-liked, well-respected member of the community; still is. Thing is, very wonderful seeming, and even decent people, can at times do monstrous things.

I have no idea what the accusations against Coughlin are about, and whether they or true or not. But, I think most people would have to recognize that the Coughlin that may be guilty of heinous acts could well still be the same man that many skaters liked, admired, and are currently grieving. I don't agree with bullying those grieving, or even dictating their grief; but I think that Mervin Tran is the one who has the most well-thought out, most measured, and most intelligent posting, showing both support and understanding for for whatever victim(s) may have been harmed by Coughlin as with Coughlin himself.

 

[Mayra]

I’m not saying they’re not allowed to grieve. They are. But do it in private or if you want it public, maybe say ‘This is a terribly confusing time, please give me the space to grieve. I will post further when I am ready to discuss it’. Not that hard. Posting multiple pictures/videos of him, talking about how wonderful he was, etc. is unnecessary. It’s nice that they saw a good side of him. But he isn’t being accused of something banal here, he’s being accused of abuse. He may have displayed a pleasant side to them but someone else saw a much darker side and these skaters not acknowledging that while praising him makes light of how terrible these allegations really are.

I imagine it is that hard. Grieving for the loss of a loved one is not easy, and I imagine it is harder when that person was lost in such a tragic way. I'm sure some know details of the allegations and others don't, and so they grieve for their version of the person they knew. They grieve for the person they want to remember vs who they may actually be. If they start to reconcile the allegations against him now, then it would force many to look differently at the person they thought they knew, and that would be twice the loss wouldn't it?

This is not a commentary on what is right or wrong with the reactions of skaters in the community, simply a generalized comment on how difficult and tragic the situation appears to be for all.

 

[GarrAargHrumph]

The latest from Christine Brennan:

...it’s “unlikely” that SafeSport will continue to investigate the allegations against him, a spokesman for the Center said Sunday afternoon.

“I think it’s unlikely given the Center’s mission,” Dan Hill said in a telephone interview. “We are not a punitive body. When someone is suspended, it is to keep individuals safe. It’s all about the safety of the reporting party. In this instance, sadly, the safety issue isn’t there now.”

The only likely reason to keep the investigation open would be if there were any reports of “systemic issues,” Hill said. “If there were other parties that perhaps were involved or anything else that would be systemic in nature, that would be a reason to keep it open. In other cases, there have been people who assisted, knew of things, had an obligation to report and didn’t, that kind of thing.”

https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...-coughlin-safesport-investigation/2632400002/

Dropping this investigation - that doesn't seem like a very good idea. It's not fair to John's friends and family, if he is innocent (or, IMO, if he is not); and it's not fair to the victims, if they want to proceed. In addition, how will we know if there *is* a systematic issue if the investigation doesn't continue?

 

[Lanie]

And if there was any abuse of a minor wouldn't law enforcement still be involved to determine what did happen? Or is it just all on SafeSport? I'm still confused how it all works. It should still be looked into because people were hurt if these accusations were as damning as people are suggesting they were. They deserve to be heard.

 

[judiz]

A death outside a medical facility and outside ongoing medical care means an autopsy in most jurisdictions, along with a coroner's report later. I imagine that will take weeks as they are probably including a toxicology report.

I can imagine that there are plenty of costs associated with a funeral, including having family members attend. I had to oversee my brother's tragic death which required specialized cleaning of the apartment (yeah, it was as bad as it sounds).

I had to make a claim through my homeowners insurance after my husband killed himself in our home. It costed $23,000 to clean and sanitize the house including ripping out floors and carpets, add to that a $14,000 funeral bill.

 

[caitie]

I understand what the SafeSport rep is saying, but how frustrating for the accusers to have come forward and get the ball rolling towards a resolution, and instead the person who abused them is being mourned publicly by their community and the investigation is not going to continue.

 

[mollymgr]

And if there was any abuse of a minor wouldn't law enforcement still be involved to determine what did happen? Or is it just all on SafeSport? I'm still confused how it all works. It should still be looked into because people were hurt if these accusations were as damning as people are suggesting they were. They deserve to be heard.

If it is a minor, law enforcement has to get involved according to the SafeSport website.

 

[GarrAargHrumph]

And if there was any abuse of a minor wouldn't law enforcement still be involved to determine what did happen?

It likely depends on what the accusations are, how long ago, the laws of the state where the incident is said to have happened, etc.

ETA:

If it is a minor, law enforcement has to get involved according to the SafeSport website.

Ah, then there you go.

 

[TallyT]

The skaters' feelings are understandable, but I have lost a lot of respect for some of them these last couple of days. I hope none of the "but he was so nice!" crowd then try and claim they are NOT part of the problem later...