Coughlin's Former Pairs Partner Alleges He Abused Her

[VGThuy]

If you see the initial reaction of posting RIP messages as a "wrong". That's what I think some disagree with. I think if some went beyond that, then more people would agree with that being a wrong.

 

[overedge]

Support for a friend doesn't mean cover-up more like not judging. What you're really saying is that most of the pairs guys and there support community condone a deplorable culture...no way.

If it's a culture in which a top competitor can allegedly abuse 10 different people across multiple years without any reporting or action, then maybe they should be condoning it. It's a small and gossipy world and I find it really difficult to believe that no one outside of the abuser and the allegedly abused knew that any of this was happening.

And if a friend is being investigated for allegations of abuse, IMO "not judging" is a pretty wishy washy response. Friends can do awful things even if they're not doing them to you.

 

[Perky Shae Lynn]

Very well put and very relevant.

When Sale and Pelletier came on the scene and everyone was talking about their love story, both the program and their personal lives, I remember wondering how much pressure is this putting on some young pair skater to get involved with his or her partner because apparently that will make your marks go up?

Gordeeva & Grinkov. Their relationship was absolutely part of the story and the mystique. They married when Katia was 19. Started dating a lot earlier. He was four years older. I think the line between "young love" and "grooming", when dealing with two teenagers, is whether the pattern gets repeated. Which apparently happened in John's case. John was getting older, but it doesn't seem his girlfriend were. Caitlin was 17 when they started dating. So as an isolated case, what happened with John and Bridget could be viewed as a relationship. Unfortunately, it doesn't appear to be an isolated case at all.

I don't think the commentators focusing on skaters' personal relationship is worrisome. It's part of human nature to see two beautiful young people in love. Grooming patterns are very complicated, and can happen regardless of any encouragement from the outside world. Figure skating's problem is that female skaters are at such a disadvantage, there is a massive dis-balance of power.

 

[tony]

I don't have a problem with people sympathizing over someone because of the person that 'they knew'. Last time I checked, the majority of these cases (or anything where ones history proves shocking) have people saying they can't believe someone of then the nature could ever do something like that- key words being 'can't believe' - their brains won't accept it. While I get the double-edged sword of it seeming insensitive towards, at the time, unnamed persons, I think we ultimately need to let everyone grieve in their own way.

However, what is not acceptable is Sappenfield and Modlin making the comments that they've made. Feeling sad for someone because you didn't know the 'whole story' is a LOT different than thinking you know their entire life and/or calling other people unstable. On the same token, telling people how they have to feel or making a list of people on Twitter who felt sad yet didn't say anything about him being not guilty is also unacceptable and just stirring the pot, which doesn't need to be stirred any more.

 

[VGThuy]

If it's a culture in which a top competitor can allegedly abuse 10 different people across multiple years without any reporting or action, then maybe they should be condoning it. It's a small and gossipy world and I find it really difficult to believe that no one outside of the abuser and the allegedly abused knew that any of this was happening.

And if a friend is being investigated for allegations of abuse, IMO "not judging" is a pretty wishy washy response. Friends can do awful things even if they're not doing them to you.

As true as that may be, it also doesn't mean that everyone in the skating world had any inkling of what was going on either. In a perfect world, we'd wish people would act accordingly, but at the same time people do have to learn that lesson regarding friends being capable of doing awful things in their own time through their own experiences. Some people hit that mark later than others. Coughlin for a lot of these people may be their first regarding something of this magnitude.

 

[Debbie S]

I am in complete agreement that USFS needs a culture change. And the dynamics in pairs and dance partnerships create potential for abuse. But the change needs to come from the grassroots level. Yes, USFS needs to take the lead, but given the number of rinks, coaches and skaters, it's impossible for USFS to monitor every situation. Several posters have suggested rules about living arrangements, which is a good idea in theory but probably impossible to enforce. And in some cases, like the one mentioned above, the partner/non-family member may not be able to live on their own and there may not be a host family (and host families may have another underage skater).

Even with elite skaters, who USFS does have knowledge of and some degree of control over, monitoring and communication usually falls to local (high level) judges. And in the case of the skaters who train and compete at a high level but never get an int'l assignment or even make it to Nats, they are not even on USFS leadership's radar screen. While USFS has rules for coach credentialing and training and officially requires all members to be given info on SafeSport, the enforcement is left up to local clubs (with not much support from USFS). And rinks are often separate from clubs/USFS. A club in residence at a rink is a customer, just like hockey leagues. Rinks usually run group lessons and offer FS sessions and often don't require coach certification (or even know about it).

The way USFS officially responds to and attempts to prevent abuse needs an overhaul, but there needs to be a complete attitude and culture change among coaches and officials and everyone who is involved with the sport, or nothing will ultimately change. The fact that no coaches or officials have spoken out in support of abuse victims or criticized Delilah for her behavior at Nats speaks volumes.

 

[VGThuy]

Excellent post, @Debbie S. Don't forget PSA's horrific response as well making it seem like they totally supported Delilah.

 

[Perky Shae Lynn]

So how does the change happen? There are still a lot more girls than boys in figure skating. Which leads to an inherently poor dynamic. Putting boys in a situation where they are afraid to have relationships with their partners is honestly not a solution.

 

[Debbie S]

So how does the change happen? There are still a lot more girls than boys in figure skating. Which leads to an inherently poor dynamic. Putting boys in a situation where they are afraid to have relationships with their partners is honestly not a solution.

Change won't be easy. The current coaches and officials have grown up in the sport, saw how things got done, and now do things the same way. It will take more education and additional compliance measures to start, but lasting change isn't going to happen unless/until the adults in the sport change their way of thinking and/or the next gen (who may think differently or be more open to change) gains a critical mass and moves into positions of leadership.

 

[overedge]

I don't think the commentators focusing on skaters' personal relationship is worrisome. It's part of human nature to see two beautiful young people in love.

I think it's worrisome. It promotes the idea that the acceptable way for men and women to be connected is through a romantic relationship, and it promotes the idea that successful pairs are ones where the partners are in love with each other off the ice.

 

[rfisher]

Whether others are batshit crazy is irrelevant to what the skaters should do. Plus, if someone is harassing them, they can block those people from their social media and/or ignore them. In fact, they should do that IMO no matter what else is at issue.

I'd say the best route for most skaters is to stay off social media for a while and say nothing unless they are called for a deposition, and then they should retain their own legal council. This is not the time to let your fingers talk.

And, I'm at the discussion that "the romantic connection" shouldn't matter when so many posters lament about the lack of connection between pair partners or the problems with sibling teams. Stolbova and Klimov had it right all along. And the Shibs.

 

[PRlady]

In another thread, someone posted this chart - age at first marriage worldwide. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_age_at_first_marriage

Looking at the difference between Nepal and Canada, for example, it’s clear how differently different cultures address romantic relationships. I’m sure if you used the expression “power differential” to an average Nepalese father marrying off his 15-year-old,he’d have no idea what you were talking about.

We have made a decision as a society that power differential relationships are wrong, or at least that’s where we are moving thanks to #MeToo. Applying that to insular subcultures like skating is going to take a while, especially since the physical dynamics of the sport favor young girls.

 

[Perky Shae Lynn]

Change won't be easy. The current coaches and officials have grown up in the sport, saw how things got done, and now do things the same way. It will take more education and additional compliance measures to start, but lasting change isn't going to happen unless/until the adults in the sport change their way of thinking and/or the next gen (who may think differently or be more open to change) gains a critical mass and moves into positions of leadership.

This sounds very reasonable. But I was a skating parent. The reality of day to day life of a skating family, in most cases, is survival. It's a demanding sport, and often includes separation of families. Parents are overwhelmed. The rink is the kids social life, so certain things are taken for granted. And if you have other children, god help you. Your attention is totally split.

Education, compliance, etc. are necessary. But fear of possible accusations and confusion over gray areas will drive teenage boys out. And having even fewer boys makes things worse, not better. Our rink had an exodus of 11-12 year olds, who were still young enough to switch to hockey. Moms were worried about things to put it mildly. I am hoping awareness will create a better climate in the sport, I really am. I hope something can be done.

 

[MsZem]

I think it's worrisome. It promotes the idea that the acceptable way for men and women to be connected is through a romantic relationship, and it promotes the idea that successful pairs are ones where the partners are in love with each other off the ice.

Which isn't even true, in pairs or in ice dance - Savchenko/Massot were never an item (or Savchenko/Szolkowy, AFAIK), Duhamel/Radford obviously never dated, and I don't recall Totmianina and Marinin being a couple. Davis and White were together since childhood and I'm not aware of the relationship ever being romantic, Papadakis and Cizeron are certainly not a couple, and obviously neither are the Shibutanis.

 

[Carolla5501]

I take issue with only ONE thing she said "Nobody innocent hangs themself "

Time to grow up sweetheart, killing yourself doesn't automatically equal guilt. Sadly lots of people take their own life and generally they have done nothing wrong.

As for the rest of it, I can believe it happened and I can see it happening.

(Wasn't Tara Johnny's agent when he had that bizarre sideshow on tv? )

 

[ilovepaydays]

In addition to everything you've said, I think the USFS, other federations, the PSA, and coaches need to take a much stronger stance on:
-- absolute ban on pairs and dance partners living under the same roof while one is a minor (unless family)
-- real schooling
-- social life / activities outside of skating

In this instance, I do wonder whether pursuit of the dream lead some to (with the best of intentions) make tragic decisions for everyone, most especially those abused.

What do you define as “real schooling”? Too many public schools in the U.S. are garbage and the social environment can be horrific. And grooming/abusive behavior can happen there as well - and also in any other environment where adults and minors interact with each other.

As long as our culture values “the amount of sacrifice” in reaching dreams & goals to the extent it does, I’m not sure how successful requiring an “outside skating life” will be.

 

[overedge]

Which isn't even true, in pairs or in ice dance - Savchenko/Massot were never an item (or Savchenko/Szolkowy, AFAIK), Duhamel/Radford obviously never dated, and I don't recall Totmianina and Marinin being a couple. Davis and White were together since childhood and I'm not aware of the relationship ever being romantic, Papadakis and Cizeron are certainly not a couple, and obviously neither are the Shibutanis.

Yep. Torvill and Dean too.

Promoting the "romantic couple" illusion also restricts what pairs and ice dance teams can do, or are expected to do, in terms of program themes. The Shibs have really struggled with the confines of being expected to do the boy/girl romantic thing, as have Duhamel/Radford.

 

[Lara111]

This sounds very reasonable. But I was a skating parent. The reality of day to day life of a skating family, in most cases, is survival. It's a demanding sport, and often includes separation of families. Parents are overwhelmed. The rink is the kids social life, so certain things are taken for granted. And if you have other children, god help you. Your attention is totally split.

We can have all the politically correct rhetoric, yet it's not that simple. Education, compliance, etc. are necessary. But fear of possible accusations and confusion over gray areas will drive boys out. And having even fewer boys participate in the sport makes things worse, not better. Our rink had an exodus of 11-12 year olds, who were still young enough to switch to hockey. Moms were worried about things to put it mildly.

Exactly. I think these may go even further and drive boys out of US

 

[VGThuy]

Exactly. I think these may go even further and drive boys out of US

 

[Perky Shae Lynn]

I think it's worrisome. It promotes the idea that the acceptable way for men and women to be connected is through a romantic relationship, and it promotes the idea that successful pairs are ones where the partners are in love with each other off the ice.

I don't think it promotes anything but excitement about two young people falling in love. You know, the ultimate romantic idea. Are we going to put that to death too? Not being in a relationship never stopped Torvill & Dean, and countless others from being admired and successful. Meryl & Charlie had the sweetest, most amazing connection - and the commentators always spoke of that. Tanith and Ben were also praised for how wonderfully they connected on the ice. All sorts of connections should be respected - why exclude romantic love from that list?

 

[Golden1]

I'm speechless seeing what turn this conversation is taking. So, we can't do everything in our power to protect girls and women because it could turn off boys from skating or from skating for the US? IMO if a boy doesn't know what is appropriate and what isn't then it's better if he stops skating or turns to singles/hockey.

 

[overedge]

I don't think it promotes anything but excitement about two young people falling in love. You know, the ultimate romantic idea. Are we going to put that to death too?

Your framing this as "the ultimate romantic idea" shows why this is a problem. It sets that kind of relationship up as a norm and something that everyone should strive to achieve: if you're not part of a boy-girl couple, something is wrong with you, and when that happens to you, all your other problems will go away. Yes, I would like to see that idea "put to death".

There is nothing wrong with two people being in love. What's wrong is promoting that as the only way for men and women to have relationships with each other.

 

[rfisher]

Exactly. I think these may go even further and drive boys out of US

Why? The majority of male skaters haven't been accused of sexual abuse.

 

[maatTheViking]

I agree with many posters in thread - age difference in neither necessary nor sufficient for a relationship to be abusive.
A relationship between two people of the same age can be abusive.
If a victim says they were abused, let us start believing her, rather than going into details about if it was a 'legal' relationship.

I think in figureskating, age can be a contributing factor, as can the power difference between a male and a female pair skaters and much else.

I think it is time USFA does some real work for a culture change.

 

[MacMadame]

When Sale and Pelletier came on the scene and everyone was talking about their love story, both the program and their personal lives, I remember wondering how much pressure is this putting on some young pair skater to get involved with his or her partner because apparently that will make your marks go up?

It's not just that it sends an implicit messages. It's that people in skating, including people high up in skating with power over your career explicitly telling a team things like "you'd get better scores if you f*cked each other."

If you see the initial reaction of posting RIP messages as a "wrong". That's what I think some disagree with. I think if some went beyond that, then more people would agree with that being a wrong.

The wrong is not supporting Bridget (and other survivors) now. In your other posts, you talk a lot about the crazy people being mean to skaters who didn't do much as if that's a reason for them not to do anything now. I think they should "do the right thing" regardless of crazies on social media and that in this case the right thing is to be publicly supportive to those who are saying John abused them.

Gordeeva & Grinkov. Their relationship was absolutely part of the story and the mystique. They married when Katia was 19. Started dating a lot earlier.

But she makes it clear that he wasn't interested in her when she was younger, sometimes to her frustration. Unlike guys who like them young and lose interest as they age, he seemed to not even notice her romantically until she got older.

Putting boys in a situation where they are afraid to have relationships with their partners is honestly not a solution.

It seems fine to me. Don't date your partner until you are both over 18.

I think it's problematic anyway to have romantic relationships with your partner as it can destroy the partnership when the romantic relationship goes awry.

 

[Perky Shae Lynn]

Your framing this as "the ultimate romantic idea" shows why this is a problem. It sets that kind of relationship up as a norm and something that everyone should strive to achieve: if you're not part of a boy-girl couple, something is wrong with you, and when that happens to you, all your other problems will go away. Yes, I would like to see that idea "put to death".

There is nothing wrong with two people being in love. What's wrong is promoting that as the only way for men and women to have relationships with each other.

When the commentators were speaking of Gordeeva & Grinkov's relationship, it was not a condemnation of other relationships. I would say that Meryl & Charlie's frienship was admired just as much as Katie & Sergei's romantic relationship. One does not exclude the other. Neither sets up the norm. I am really confused by your comment, and I will leave it at that.

 

[Perky Shae Lynn]

It seems fine to me. Don't date your partner until you are both over 18.

I think it's problematic anyway to have romantic relationships with your partner as it can destroy the partnership when the romantic relationship goes awry.

I agree. Although when you have a bunch of teenagers at the rink (which is basically their entire life), people date. It's their high school experience. And where do you draw the hard line? Don't date as in don't kiss? Don't spend time together outside the rink? Don't have intercourse? The problem with grooming is that it doesn't start out as an explicitly sexual relationship. It's emotional abuse first and foremost; and can start without dating.

 

[WillyElliot]

You seem overly focused on whether or not statutory rape happened. You don't have to be raped to be abused. It's really only relevant if the justice system wants to press charges. It's not relevant to whether or not Couglin abused Bridget.
.

The only reason why I posted about statutory rape was because another person brought it up and her lawyer said how he abused underaged girls. The implication being that he was raping them and it changes the narrative. A 16 y/o in NJ is of legal consenting age and is not underage. In other states that would be considered statutory rape. That's why I made that comment.

 

[VGThuy]

The wrong is not supporting Bridget (and other survivors) now. In your other posts, you talk a lot about the crazy people being mean to skaters who didn't do much as if that's a reason for them not to do anything now. I think they should "do the right thing" regardless of crazies on social media and that in this case the right thing is to be publicly supportive to those who are saying John abused them.

If that’s the case, then does that also go for skaters who made no comment whatsoever as some may take their silence as enabling and acquiescence of the culture that lead to abuse. Or is it more about skaters who chose to speak publicly in some way, even if minor and not making an explicit comment about not supporting survivors, having to correct their perceived wrong? Because if some start from a position that the “RIP” messages were not wrong in the first place, then what wrong are they committing that they have to correct? Obviously, if one thinks any message no matter how neutral was just a wrong, then I understand the calls for correction. I mentioned in my first real post here that skaters may need to make a comment if they chose even in the mildest way to acknowledge John’s death as public figures whose postings have influence and impact. I just don’t know how “demanding” we should be nor do I agree with a lot of the blame the skaters are getting.

Further, my posts about others acting badly is more of a comment about how some are taking advantage of tragedy for their own agendas or misappropriating rage and having it be counter-intuitive for restorative justice. I said when skaters get bombarded with that sort of verbal harassment when they felt they didn’t do anything wrong, then I’d get it if they decide to no longer comment or become defensive. You’re right that it doesn’t mean they shouldn’t say something as I acknowledged in my first real post in this thread. I’m not using those people attacking skaters on social media as an excuse for the skaters to not say anything but that we as a skating fandom community should also be responsible and considerate for how we post.

 

[canbelto]

I am NOT saying Gordeeva/Grinkov shouldn't have had their happily ever after relationship. What i am saying is problematic is how coaches and judges want pairs "packaged" as a couple from the time they are paired as kids onwards. They have to have "chemistry." There has to be a "connection." For all who swooned at Tessa/Scott's Moulin Rouge -- watch their juniors programs. They were making the cute lovey dovey faces then too, and judges thought it was adorable. I am saying this relentless desire to package pairs as romantic could lead to boundaries being blurred, and for victims to stay silent as they are part of this heavily promoted "fairy tale on ice" package.