College administration bribery scandal

[skateycat]

The most important outtake from this is to stop a minute and think of all the students of color who have been made to feel they’re only in the good schools because of affirmative action.

I didn't learn that people used falsely claiming a Native American tribal affiliation to get a leg up in the admission process until after I was at a University of California campus for a couple of semesters. I felt horrified and really crappy for a while, I thought maybe that being from a California Indian tribe was the only reason *I* got in. It took me a while to remember that my B+ average, my 1320 SAT (back in the olden days when it was out of 1600) and my really good essay might have had something to do with it too.

 

[Prancer]

I haven't kept up with trends specific to black students at top universities, but things are different now with respect to students coming from low-income backgrounds, especially those incoming students are the from the first generation in their family to attend college. There are more of them.

There are. But they don't do well.

Nationally, 89 percent of low-income first-generation students leave college within six years without a degree. More than a quarter leave after their first year — four times the dropout rate of higher-income second-generation students.

I just went to a seminar on this . One of the things that was discussed is that first-generation students tend to have focused very intensely on getting into college and had everything in their lives geared to that, but no plan for what to do when they get there. Their parents tend to assume that it's just more school and they will be fine, and they have no idea what to tell their kids about college anyway. Mentoring is considered key there, but it's easy to get lost in most colleges.

 

[Vagabond]

@Prancer, do you know whether the graduation rates for first-generation, low-income students is significantly different at Ivy League and comparable colleges from the national average?

(One reason why I am interested is that the increased percentage of such students in the entering classes is used in soliciting donations.)

 

[el henry]

I do see where outright bribing is different than endowing the medical school: don't these folks know how it works?

A million gazillion (let's call it 40 plus) years ago I was what they now call first generation. I also worked as a work study student at the admissions office one summer.

They most definitely accepted poor white students, I was one of them (relatively speaking. My family's income equalled the cost of one year board and tuition). A "socio economic" admit was a "socio economic" admit. They had "diversity" admits, which was not what folks think of now, but first cello in the state orchestra type diversity, and "academic" admits, which accounted for only 25%. The Biffs and Buffys admitted as legacies or money donated tended to have just as low grades as the poor African American kid from Gratz High, which considering what the Gratz kid had to go through was quite an accomplishment for Biff and Buffy.

Two points about a million gazillion years ago: cost was not a factor. We actually had real financial aid in the US of A, which made an incredible difference and put me solidly in the middle class paying a lot more taxes than I would have otherwise. I paid nothing, nothing, for four years of undergrad. I went to Penn instead of Temple because it was cheaper. (which also shows how little I knew, as a first gen student, about colleges). The fact we no longer have that aid is horrible. Just horrible, short sighted, and a complete frustration.

And thank God I chose the Ivy. It was one of the best decisions of my life, it opened up entire new worlds to me (not just meeting Biff and Buffy) and that's what education is all about.

/off of soapbox.....

 

[Prancer]

@Prancer, do you know whether the graduation rates for first-generation, low-income students is significantly different at Ivy League and comparable colleges from the national average?

(One reason why I am interested is that the increased percentage of such students in the entering classes is used in soliciting donations.)

Some of the top schools claim a 99% retention rate; some decline to report on first-generation student success rates.

I will say that the success rates of first generation students who live in dorms is considerably higher, which I would think would make the Ivies and comparable schools more successful than most.

 

[Vagabond]

I do see where outright bribing is different than endowing the medical school: don't these folks know how it works?

How would they? Lori Loughlin, for example, never went to college.

 

[el henry]

How would they? Lori Loughlin, for example, never went to college.

Maybe she has friends who went to college?

My parents dropped out of high school in 10th grade and so did al their friends (not necessarily 10th grade, but not graduating) *They* didn’t know. I’m thinking Lori had more cultural capital than they did, but maybe not

 

[becca]

How would they? Lori Loughlin, for example, never went to college.

It’s far cheaper through the side door. Some are saying maybe the top schools should have a lottery. Kids meet certain academic criteria get in it.

 

[Debbie S]

Black children coming from families with similar incomes to privileged white kids still face some really limiting factors.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that racism doesn't exist.

The quote from an article Prancer linked on the first page of the thread that I called out noted that so many spots in any given college class are 'reserved' for either legacies, donors' kids, athletes, underrepresented minorities, that middle-class whites and Asian-Americans w/o any connections are getting shut out. That would reflect what I've noticed over the past 10 years or so with kids I skate with...good students but not geniuses, who are getting unexpected rejections to schools they thought were a sure thing. Obviously, college admissions was always a crapshoot but from what I've been reading (not just in this thread but over the past few years), I think there need to be changes made (in one interview I saw tonight, some former admissions dean said that athletic admits sometimes made up as much as 40% of total admits ) to try to make the system more fair. Not that most things in life are fair, but we can try to give it a shot.

Mentoring is considered key there, but it's easy to get lost in most colleges.

My college has some sort of mentoring program for first-gen students now. There was an article about it a year or two ago in the alumni magazine and I wondered why they hadn't started something like that sooner, but I guess if the numbers have increased specifically in recent years... And nearly all students live in the dorms (each of which have a peer tutor/advisor who is required to be available for a certain amount of help hours) so that may help.

 

[becca]

I think these people do their kids such a disservice with the idea every thing is handed to them.

Let your kids figure things out and mess up.

 

[Susan1]

I think these people do their kids such a disservice with the idea every thing is handed to them.

Let your kids figure things out and mess up.

Apart from the girl who said she just wanted to go to college to party, wouldn't kids feel bad if they got bought into the school and couldn't cut it. Do they just pass the kids through like they do dumb jocks? What do these kids do when they "graduate"? Probably start a clothing or cosmetic line?

And, me being me again, shouldn't the title of the thread be College "admission" bribery, not "administration"? Sorry, I'm just bombarded every day with things I want to correct!

 

[MsZem]

The Biffs and Buffys admitted as legacies or money donated tended to have just as low grades as the poor African American kid from Gratz High, which considering what the Gratz kid had to go through was quite an accomplishment for Biff and Buffy.

Are there actual people named Biff and Buffy who were not in Back to the Future/busy fighting vampires? Those don't sounds like very 1 percentish names to me.

 

[allezfred]

Good to know that "Legally Blonde" was based on a true story though.

 

[clairecloutier]

The college bribery scandal is all about a myth (opinion piece)

 

[kwanfan1818]

I haven't had any recent personal experience with college applications, but unless things have radically changed, the applicant is not the one filing transcripts, test scores, or letters of recommendation, let alone the statements of college coaches who say that the applicant will be on a particular sports team.

Notices of test scores are sent to the address on the test taker's application, possibly email now. It's possible for parents to intercept them or have them sent elsewhere, without the student knowing, especially if the student isn't interested in college.

I always think of one of my favorite cheesy movies, The Competition, where the teacher, Lee Remick, tells the student that she's competing in the XYZ Piano Competition. Any Irving replies, but I didn't apply. Lee Remick says, I did for you, and then gives a snarky description of how she impersonated Amy Irving's playing for the application tape.

Colleges usually count US students and international students separately. They wouldn't just lump together black US students and students from Africa. They'd count a student from Spain as an international student, not as Latino. International students tend to pay full tuition and don't get the kind of financial aid US students receive, so they are treated differently.

For this reason my university had a special scholarship fund for poor, but academically gifted, students from other countries.

 

[becca]

Apart from the girl who said she just wanted to go to college to party, wouldn't kids feel bad if they got bought into the school and couldn't cut it. Do they just pass the kids through like they do dumb jocks? What do these kids do when they "graduate"? Probably start a clothing or cosmetic line?

And, me being me again, shouldn't the title of the thread be College "admission" bribery, not "administration"? Sorry, I'm just bombarded every day with things I want to correct!

Many parents didn’t want kids to know. One parent said kid will feel good about self with high score on entrance exam.

A class action suit has already started against the universities. Two Stanford students sheds schools they applied didn’t get into. They also sued Stanford Saying their negligence devalued their degrees.

It frankly does devalue the degrees. IF unqualified kids can get in and skate.

 

[jeffisjeff]

Some are children of legal immigrants. Nigerians are the most educated immigrants in this country. Their kids do well too of course.

Clearly you are the resident FSU expert on higher education, so those of us who actually work in higher ed will just bow down to your expertise!

 

[becca]

Clearly you are the resident FSU expert on higher education, so those of us who actually work in higher ed will just bow down to your expertise!

There are a lot of articles out there about how Africa is sending us their best in brightest. Do I need to quote them?
https://www.ozy.com/fast-forward/the-most-successful-ethnic-group-in-the-us-may-surprise-you/86885

Never said expert but I have read articles about this.

 

[smurfy]

https://www.gse.harvard.edu/news/ed/17/05/poor-privileged

I read one article about a kid from a poor urban school at an Ivy, and on his first day of a class, the professor said that the students would be required to write a multi-page paper by the following week. The student laughed out loud because he thought the professor was being funny, then cringed when he saw everyone else just writing down the assignment. He had never written more than a paragraph for school before and had no idea what an essay was. And I was nodding along, because I've had a number of students like that over the years.

They don't do well.

I went to a great high school here in Connecticut - at the time - in the top 50 in the country, now it is in the top 100.
I got my degree at UConn - state university. One of my buddies freshman year - also from CT and from a suburb with a decent school system and she did not know how to do a term paper. I spent a lot of time showing her how to do footnotes, bibliography etc. My gpa was decent from high school, hers was I think 4.0 and I got the sense she was ranked high in her class. I had done at lots of term papers in high school, definitly more than 5 my senior year, some my junior and sophomore years too. My buddy was not dumb, but I was much better prepared for college than she. The only thing that changed for me in college was more the volume of work, the difficulty not so much.
I am the youngest of 5 - our parents did not go to college, were high school grads, and all 5 of us graduated with college degrees in 4 years. I was lucky that I learned stuff from my older siblings. I think cost was an issue and a big reason we all finished in 4 years.

This whole mess/crimes - to me is just indicative of what has been going on for years, but seems to be getting crazier due to technology. I wonder if there were no celebrities arrested would the story be covered as widely?

I graduated hs in 78. I have no kids - but my siblings and friends with kids looking into colleges - the process is just so different and way more complex. They all take there vacations to go visit schools from about 10th grade on.
School was also way less expensive back then. I lived home my first 2 years and then 2 years in the dorm at state uni. I was able to graduate with no debt and worked part time throughout.

 

[jeffisjeff]

There are a lot of articles out there about how Africa is sending us their best in brightest. Do I need to quote them?

No, thank you.

TBH, I don't quite understand the points you are trying to make (or your odd obsession with Africans in US colleges), but you clearly don't understand how colleges think about student diversity. And you clearly do not seem to understand that students from Africa are not taking college "spots" designated for some group of US students. Reading between the lines, it seems that you are implying that colleges are giving wealthy African students the "spots" they have set aside for poor black American students. Which, again, demonstrates a lack of understanding of how colleges work, as well as your own biases.

 

[becca]

No, thank you.

TBH, I don't quite understand the points you are trying to make (or your odd obsession with Africans in US colleges), but you clearly don't understand how colleges think about student diversity. And you clearly do not seem to understand that students from Africa are not taking college "spots" designated for some group of US students. Reading between the lines, it seems that you are implying that colleges are giving wealthy African students the "spots" they have set aside for poor black American students. Which, again, demonstrates a lack of understanding of how colleges work.

I was saying that’s how some feel didn’t say it’s necessarily how I feel. It’s exactly how some African Americans feel. That they are getting to take advantage of affirmative action.

Never said I agreed with the assessment.

There is starting to be tension there. Of course diversity is important.

There was a protest in Cornell about it.

https://www.insidehighered.com/admi...evive-debate-whom-colleges-should-count-black

 

[jeffisjeff]

I said that’s how some feel didn’t say it’s necessarily how I feel. It’s exactly how some African Americans feel.

So now you are an expert on the feelings of African Americans? Excellent! I am sure African Americans are so happy to have you making their case for them! And defending their college "spots"!

 

[becca]

So now you are an expert on the feelings of African Americans? Excellent! I am sure African Americans are so happy to have you making their case for them! And defending their college "spots"!

Never said I was. I have read articles are you saying there wasn’t a protest at Cornell over it?

Since there was! At Cornell than how am I wrong to say maybe there is starting to be some tensions. It doesn’t mean I am an expert or claim to be. But at least at one elite school there are tensions.

Where did I say I am an expert? Ever?

 

[jeffisjeff]

Never said I was. I have read articles are you saying there wasn’t a protest at Cornell over it?

You mean this? https://www.insidehighered.com/admi...rnell-reconsider-demand-admissions-priorities

Cornell's Black Students United group has pulled back from a controversial policy position -- part of a series of demands made to the New York private university's administration -- about the admission of black students. The group posted a message on Facebook indicating that it understood the anger created by the demand, which many viewed as an insult to those whose parents are recent immigrants from Africa or the Caribbean.

If that is what you were referring to, you should have gotten all over "some of those spots are now going to children of African immigrants," rather than what you said, which was "some of those spots are now going to African immigrants" (see https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...on-bribery-scandal.105396/page-5#post-5553979).

That said, as noted above, the group at Cornell has reconsidered their demand (which apparently was just one of a number of demands, but one that some conservative media shockingly latched onto). So I am not sure why you are still obsessed about it?

Also, articles about the Cornell issue support my point. For example: https://www.insidehighered.com/admi...evive-debate-whom-colleges-should-count-black

Cornell counts students for race and ethnicity much like other colleges do -- the figures for black students are for those who are U.S. citizens or permanent residents, not international students. So a student from Ghana or Trinidad, enrolling as an international student, would not count in the total of black students.

Anyway, since the Cornell student group has retracted their demand and has acknowledged that the issues are too complex for simplistic solutions, perhaps you could do the same? And maybe also stop talking about "slots"?

 

[becca]

You mean this? https://www.insidehighered.com/admi...rnell-reconsider-demand-admissions-priorities


If that is what you were referring to, you should have gotten all over "some of those spots are now going to children of African immigrants," rather than what you said, which was "some of those spots are now going to African immigrants" (see https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...on-bribery-scandal.105396/page-5#post-5553979).

That said, as noted above, the group at Cornell has reconsidered their demand (which apparently was just one of a number of demands, but one that some conservative media shockingly latched onto). So I am not sure why you are still obsessed about it?

Also, articles about the Cornell issue support my point. For example: https://www.insidehighered.com/admi...evive-debate-whom-colleges-should-count-black


Anyway, since the Cornell student group has retracted their demand and has acknowledged that the issues are too complex for simplistic solutions, perhaps you could do the same? And maybe also stop talking about "slots"?

I mentioned the kids of immigrants did you miss that? I never said people are coming directly from Africa and benefiting.

All I was saying is there were was tensions and I don’t think it as simplistic as slots. In reality.

 

[AxelAnnie]

No, thank you.

TBH, I don't quite understand the points you are trying to make (or your odd obsession with Africans in US colleges), but you clearly don't understand how colleges think about student diversity. And you clearly do not seem to understand that students from Africa are not taking college "spots" designated for some group of US students. Reading between the lines, it seems that you are implying that colleges are giving wealthy African students the "spots" they have set aside for poor black American students. Which, again, demonstrates a lack of understanding of how colleges work, as well as your own biases.

I would be really surprised to find that Africans are admitted, on any kind of quantifiable basis.

If you are referring to diversity programs, financial aid programs, etc., schools set aside slots for the programs they are interested in filling with particular skills and or backgrounds.

If there are 6,000 spots available for Fall of 2020, for example, and 1,000 are set aside for special skills (i.e. music, sport, etc), and 1,000 are set aside for diversity enrollment then you actually have only 4,000 spots available for regular registration..............and that would be for people who qualified on the SATs, and whatever other admission requirement are in place.

And, the 2,000 people with the diversity or skills spots are offered enrollment without (necessarily) having to meet regular enrollment requirements.

I have met professionals of various races who sometimes make it clear that they attended say CAL, on their merits, rather than as a special qualification exception.

As an aside, there is a very special Charter High School here in the bay area. Admission was strictly merit based. They had to set up a diversity program because 85% of the students were of Asian descent.

 

[becca]

I would be really surprised to find that Africans are admitted, on any kind of quantifiable basis.

If you are referring to diversity programs, financial aid programs, etc., schools set aside slots for the programs they are interested in filling with particular skills and or backgrounds.

If there are 6,000 spots available for Fall of 2020, for example, and 1,000 are set aside for special skills (i.e. music, sport, etc), and 1,000 are set aside for diversity enrollment then you actually have only 4,000 spots available for regular registration..............and that would be for people who qualified on the SATs, and whatever other admission requirement are in place.

And, the 2,000 people with the diversity or skills spots are offered enrollment without (necessarily) having to meet regular enrollment requirements.

I have met professionals of various races who sometimes make it clear that they attended say CAL, on their merits, rather than as a special qualification exception.

As an aside, there is a very special Charter High School here in the bay area. Admission was strictly merit based. They had to set up a diversity program because 85% of the students were of Asian descent.

Yes. For the record I don’t find a problem with diversity programs. The point was and what the Cornell students were saying is a large amount of the students being counted as black were first generation immigrants.

Now I think it is not necessarily a bad thing because they bring a different type of diversity. A very different perspective which is good. So I don’t think diversity should be just about racial justice.

 

[el henry]

Are there actual people named Biff and Buffy who were not in Back to the Future/busy fighting vampires? Those don't sounds like very 1 percentish names to me.

When it comes to Biffs and Buffy’s precisely I don’t know. But the few I met never used their real names and had very similar nicknames.

For example Spousal Unit lived in the same college as “Bowly” as an undergrad. One of Bowly’s best buds, George, lived in the college across the way. George was elected to high office. To this day, as far I know, that gentleman goes by Bowly.

I’d prefer Biff

 

[gkelly]

If you are referring to diversity programs, financial aid programs, etc., schools set aside slots for the programs they are interested in filling with particular skills and or backgrounds.

If there are 6,000 spots available for Fall of 2020, for example, and 1,000 are set aside for special skills (i.e. music, sport, etc), and 1,000 are set aside for diversity enrollment then you actually have only 4,000 spots available for regular registration..............and that would be for people who qualified on the SATs, and whatever other admission requirement are in place.

And, the 2,000 people with the diversity or skills spots are offered enrollment without (necessarily) having to meet regular enrollment requirements.

Is that how it works? Or is more like:

There are 6,000 spots available for Fall 2020. There are many more than 6,000 applicants.

If there are minimum requirements even to be considered, then anyone who doesn't meet those minimum requirements is eliminated.

Let's say there are 10,000+ applicants left who do meet the requirements.

Of those qualified applicants, 1,000 may be given spots on the basis of special skills and 1,000 on the basis of diversity. They're all qualified, but candidates who can also tick certain boxes get preference in the selection among all who are qualified.

Then there are still 8,000+ qualified applicants to decide among for the 4,000 remaining spots. Again, they're all qualified, so not all qualified candidates will be accepted. How do admissions officers decide which 4,000 to choose? They may rank them in some way, but that ranking will not necessarily be based purely on GPAs and standardized test scores. It's possible for someone to have the highest scores and not be near the top of the rankings, because there are other qualified candidates whose total package of scores and other personal characteristics adds up to a more attractive candidate.

Also there might be some attempt to balance the number of accepted applicants who express an interest in majoring in sciences or humanities or business, etc. Not that those interests are binding before even being accepted. But there may be qualified applicants who don't get accepted because there were more than enough qualified applicants for their field and fewer for other areas of the study the school also wanted represented.


I don't know the details of how the decisions are made. But 1) I don't think there are large numbers of slots set aside for students who don't even meet the minimum qualifications, and 2) decisions among qualified applicants are not made in strict order of standardized scores.

 

[PRlady]

I do see where outright bribing is different than endowing the medical school: don't these folks know how it works?

A million gazillion (let's call it 40 plus) years ago I was what they now call first generation. I also worked as a work study student at the admissions office one summer.

They most definitely accepted poor white students, I was one of them (relatively speaking. My family's income equalled the cost of one year board and tuition). A "socio economic" admit was a "socio economic" admit. They had "diversity" admits, which was not what folks think of now, but first cello in the state orchestra type diversity, and "academic" admits, which accounted for only 25%. The Biffs and Buffys admitted as legacies or money donated tended to have just as low grades as the poor African American kid from Gratz High, which considering what the Gratz kid had to go through was quite an accomplishment for Biff and Buffy.

Two points about a million gazillion years ago: cost was not a factor. We actually had real financial aid in the US of A, which made an incredible difference and put me solidly in the middle class paying a lot more taxes than I would have otherwise. I paid nothing, nothing, for four years of undergrad. I went to Penn instead of Temple because it was cheaper. (which also shows how little I knew, as a first gen student, about colleges). The fact we no longer have that aid is horrible. Just horrible, short sighted, and a complete frustration.

And thank God I chose the Ivy. It was one of the best decisions of my life, it opened up entire new worlds to me (not just meeting Biff and Buffy) and that's what education is all about.

/off of soapbox.....

I’m exactly in your camp. Mom said if you don’t get a scholarship, you go to Temple. But getting Pell and other grants in the 70s when your single mom was a social worker was so much easier than now. Penn, Bryn Mawr and Sarah Lawrence all offered more money on top of Pell, and I really wanted out of Philly and went to SLC.

We had Biffs and Buffys too but they were the black sheep rebels in their families. I was the one getting up at 8:00 AM Sunday to work while they slept in but I’ve never regretted it; it really did open new worlds to a cloistered little rowhouse Jewish girl.