College administration bribery scandal

[WillyElliot]

I would love to see what the students have to affirm when they send their applications in regarding truthfulness and completeness. If bogus SAT scores were submitted as theirs, I can imagine that there would be consequences. If they said they were water polo players and weren't, also a problem. I'm sure there are registrars and deans pouring over these matters as we speak.

Back in my day, there was no "Honor Code" which I think now is automatic and requires a signature, so I'm interested in seeing what a college application says wrt honesty on the application and who is ultimately responsible. But, really, let's face it that the richie richs probably won't play by the rules anyway. Expel all of them. What's the alternate? Some 1%er bragging "I spent $50K fraudulently getting my kid into Yale, got caught, pled down and paid a $100K fine, but DarlingChild still got that Yale degree!!! It was all worth it in the end!" Sorry, I'm getting tired of these 1% antics. I *understand* it, but that's when your conscience and integrity usually hits you and you know you wouldn't ever do that.

 

[Yazmeen]

And if you think this hasn't been going on for years, think again. I was one of the last 5 cut from 25 originally selected to go to a Philly Med School after 2 years of college in a special program to provide new family physicians. Later it was discovered that a PA state rep was paying bribes to get students into that med school at that time as part of a profit-making scheme with the hospital related to a multi-million dollar appropriation they received courtesy of him. We didn't sue (this was the 70s), but that group of us realized we probably lost our spots to some brat who parents bribed their way in. For me, it was a good thing; I went the regular 4 years college then med school route and did just fine.

 

[WillyElliot]

Later it was discovered that a PA state rep was paying bribes to get students into that med school at that time as part of a profit-making scheme with the hospital related to a multi-million dollar appropriation they received courtesy of him. We didn't sue (this was the 70s), but that group of us realized we probably lost our spots to some brat who parents bribed their way in. For me, it was a good thing; I went the regular 4 years college then med school route and did just fine.

Was it Women's Med? Just curious. They got sketchy with Hahnemann and I think they had to shut down. An acquaintance of mine graduated from WM around 1970 and would be interested. To me it screams like something like that would happen at Drexel (or Temple), though I'm just making an educated guess on that....

 

[becca]

Back in my day, there was no "Honor Code" which I think now is automatic and requires a signature, so I'm interested in seeing what a college application says wrt honesty on the application and who is ultimately responsible. But, really, let's face it that the richie richs probably won't play by the rules anyway. Expel all of them. What's the alternate? Some 1%er bragging "I spent $50K fraudulently getting my kid into Yale, got caught, pled down and paid a $100K fine, but DarlingChild still got that Yale degree!!! It was all worth it in the end!" Sorry, I'm getting tired of these 1% antics. I *understand* it, but that's when your conscience and integrity usually hits you and you know you wouldn't ever do that.

That’s why I vote as Senator Kennedy said federal prison.

 

[WillyElliot]

That’s why I vote as Senator Kennedy said federal prison.

Are you talking about the current senator from LA? I try my best to ignore LA politics, I'm only there a few weeks a year. It's as dirty as anywhere else. What did this Senator John Kennedy say about this?

 

[BaileyCatts]

As a Canadian, the thing I am saddest about is the end of Lori Loughlin's Lifetime movies. I LOVE THEM! Also, I hope she is still in the final season of Fuller House.

Unless there is something I haven't seen or read about the movies (like they were already ending anyway prior to this story breaking?), I don't see this as a end to those movies at all. I don't see this hurting either of their careers. Maybe it might push back some production scheduling for a cooling off period, but I don't see if affecting their careers at all. They'll disappear for a while for the story to cool off, then back to scheduled work and movies, and Becky will still be in Fuller House. Its Hollywood. They'll have to slap their hands and exhile them for a bit then they'll be welcomed back with open arms. I don't see them doing "prison time", at most maybe a stint in Club Fed like Martha Stewart, pay some huge ass fines, then back to work as usual.

 

[becca]

Are you talking about the current senator from LA? I try my best to ignore LA politics, I'm only there a few weeks a year. It's as dirty as anywhere else. What did this Senator John Kennedy say about this?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.my...gry-over-college-admissions-scheme/1846166247

I heard his voice absolutely disgusted.

I don’t think this is Martha Stewart. Lori’s audience is a lot of middle class folks trying to get their kids in college. She went after them.

Oh and the feds indicte you, you are screwed. I have a family member who is a Fed prosecutor. He lost twice in decades of work. They only take the case if they can win.

 

[clairecloutier]

Lori Loughlin's daughter spends night on yacht owned by the chairman of the USC board of trustees
https://www.tmz.com/2019/03/13/lori...ivia-yacht-usc-board-of-trustees-rick-caruso/

You can't make this stuff up!

 

[WillyElliot]

Lori Loughlin's daughter spends night on yacht owned by the chairman of the USC board of trustees
https://www.tmz.com/2019/03/13/lori...ivia-yacht-usc-board-of-trustees-rick-caruso/

You can't make this stuff up!

Where is the angry or vomiting emoji? Kind of like how the owner of the Super Bowl winner team was arrested in a sex trafficking scheme, and the owner of such was watching the Super Bowl with PrezOrange.

 

[Deleted member 221]

The thing is, all college admissions is a numbers / PR game. The students from the “three electoral vote” states (DC aside) have 100x times the chance of getting in as the students from CA, NY, or NJ. And, yes, all else equal, Blacks have 10+ times the chance of whites or Asians. (Especially Asians. If the system is rigged against anyone, it’s them. “Just another Chinese-American with 1600 SAT and 4.0 GPA from California. Rejected!” I saw five a day.)

Caveat: my knowledge of the inside is now 20 years out of date. Maybe it has changed, but I doubt it. And most of what I saw, including Ivanka, is unethical but legal or on the borderline.

I may have benefitted from a quota for Philadelphia residents. I’ll never know for sure. My academics were good, but I pulled my file, and I was a very rare A+ (admit and make sure he comes). By the algorithms used at the time, I was not an A+. My SATs were barely median.

My counterpart at the local girls’ school definitely benefited from quotas. I didn’t know it was possible to get into Penn with 1060 SAT. She ended up an A student and is now a successful medical doctor in the community.

If we want to layer even more inequality on top, our schools did not teach the SAT. They didn’t even read our college essays. We had one counsellor for 1000 students and she was on disability (with no replacement) the year I applied. As long as property tax funds schools, there will always be gross inequality.

What’s “fair” in college admissions? My time there taught me that there’s no clear answer. What is clear is that these scandals are way beyond the pale.

 

[BaileyCatts]

Like figure skaters who win some local competition and put that on their college applications as championship figure skater.

Back in the early 90's (before internet applying for jobs was a thing), I worked in the HR group that handled the mailed in resumes from people who wanted entry level Advertising management jobs at the large company I worked at (side note: everyone was automatically rejected who mailed in a resume because they only hired from a select group of colleges for those jobs). Anyway, I remember a resume I got from one girl who went on and on about her championship skating career and Gold Medal wins. Being a skating fan, I was like 'who the hell is this' cause I never heard of her. I tried to search her name once when internet searching became a thing, and never could find anything skating related on her name. Probably the same deal you describe.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Yep, that is a whole lot to come to terms with, on top of the fact that now everyone in your class knows how you got in and so will your future employers. Some won't care; some will, even if you excel in your classes anyway.

Whereas the legacy kids I knew bragged about who their alumni parents were + how many generations has gone there and pointed to the family buildings, and it was very clear that everyone, including their future employers, knew how they got in. That's the true affirmative action.

My favorite part is she talks in the end about a kid who scored super high on his tests and said no to the Ivies because he wanted no debt and to be financially responsible. The whole educational system in this country is a mess.

One of an old boyfriend's students, whom I adored, was really sad when he couldn't go to Harvard because of finances. Instead he went to the Honors program at Michigan State on a full ride. I remember telling him that while I understood his anger and disappointment -- his parents had led him to expect they'd make it possible, something I'd witnessed myself over time, and they ended up having zero -- the upside was that he would be out of school debt free. He was a star in the program, and ended up in the graduate school of his choice. I was really happy when my ex told me he had bumped into former student who remembered what I said about getting out debt-free, which was a big warm and fuzzy for me.

As for Lori Laughlin’s husband not being mentioned, she is Aunt Becky from Full House so a lot of people still know who she is.

She was Jody Travis on Edge of Night

The most important outtake from this is to stop a minute and think of all the students of color who have been made to feel they’re only in the good schools because of affirmative action.

THIS.

I thought it was traditional to buy your kid's way into college and/or call up Biff to put in a word to get an application to move piles. What surprises me is using third parties to do it who would talk. A friend who ran the testing center at SFU (Simon Fraser) used to have to process a substantial number of people who got other people to sit for their TOEFL exam.

 

[overedge]

Lori Loughlin's daughter spends night on yacht owned by the chairman of the USC board of trustees
https://www.tmz.com/2019/03/13/lori...ivia-yacht-usc-board-of-trustees-rick-caruso/

You can't make this stuff up!

And the Canadian who was charged in the scheme was a member of the Board of Governors at a local university, during the same time that he was (allegedly) paying $$$ for fake exam scores for his sons. To get his sons into universities that apparently were more prestigious and better than the university he was involved in governing

 

[becca]

The thing is, all college admissions is a numbers / PR game. The students from the “three electoral vote” states (DC aside) have 100x times the chance of getting in as the students from CA, NY, or NJ. And, yes, all else equal, Blacks have 10+ times the chance of whites or Asians. (Especially Asians. If the system is rigged against anyone, it’s them. “Just another Chinese-American with 1600 SAT and 4.0 GPA from California. Rejected!” I saw five a day.)

Caveat: my knowledge of the inside is now 20 years out of date. Maybe it has changed, but I doubt it. And most of what I saw, including Ivanka, is unethical but legal or on the borderline.

I may have benefitted from a quota for Philadelphia residents. I’ll never know for sure. My academics were good, but I pulled my file, and I was a very rare A+ (admit and make sure he comes). By the algorithms used at the time, I was not an A+. My SATs were barely median.

My counterpart at the local girls’ school definitely benefited from quotas. I didn’t know it was possible to get into Penn with 1060 SAT. She ended up an A student and is now a successful medical doctor in the community.

If we want to layer even more inequality on top, our schools did not teach the SAT. They didn’t even read our college essays. We had one counsellor for 1000 students and she was on disability (with no replacement) the year I applied. As long as property tax funds schools, there will always be gross inequality.

What’s “fair” in college admissions? My time there taught me that there’s no clear answer. What is clear is that these scandals are way beyond the pale.

There is no doubt gross inequality. But it makes it worse that folks who already have the deck stacked in their favor so much are going this route

At least other students benefit from the building sort of although that is still sickening.

I frankly it’s bad to bring race into this in the sense that the poor white child is as screwed by this as the African Americans.
Having people scream affirmative action only causes people to ignore the inequalities. And the wealth issue.

The found that when they made affirmative action need based it helped poor whites. I am not against affirmative action but I think a lot of poor whites in Appalachia or the rust belt would be Shocked to hear their privileged.

We have income inequality in this country and we need to have concerns about it for all races.

 

[viennese]

Lori Loughlin's daughter spends night on yacht owned by the chairman of the USC board of trustees
https://www.tmz.com/2019/03/13/lori...ivia-yacht-usc-board-of-trustees-rick-caruso/

You can't make this stuff up!

But she's a top recruit for the USC crew team! She'll be able to row her way home.

 

[Vagabond]

Can an American arrested on felony charges still work in Canada? She's not convicted (yet) so I think she'd still be able to, but I don't know Canadian law.

She will most likely have other problems besides Canadian law.

She may have already had to surrender her passport to the prosecutors in California. Also, it is extremely likely that her contracts have a morals clause that would permit the producers to let her go immediately.

 

[BaileyCatts]

Since this specific scam has been going on since 2011, and seems to be very wide spread and I've read they are not done charging people, its likely that some people who bribed and cheated their kid into college, that kid has already graduated and has a degree. Can the colleges like ... cancel or rescind those degrees if the kid truly did pass all the requirements to get the degree?

And another thing ... if they cheated their kids way in via having some else take tests, etc., how did the kid even manage their way thru college and taking the classes in the first place? They still have to be able to pass the classes to get the degree .... unless they cheated their entire way thru the degree requirements?

 

[Vagabond]

Can the colleges like ... cancel or rescind those degrees if the kid truly did pass all the requirements to get the degree?

AFAIK, they can if the degree was obtained by fraud (in this case fraud in the admissions process), but they may need to go to court to do so, depending on state law.

 

[becca]

She talks about how top schools may miss out on really talented kids.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cn...-admissions-cheating-asha-rangappa/index.html

 

[Debbie S]

Anyway, I remember a resume I got from one girl who went on and on about her championship skating career and Gold Medal wins. Being a skating fan, I was like 'who the hell is this' cause I never heard of her. I tried to search her name once when internet searching became a thing, and never could find anything skating related on her name. Probably the same deal you describe.

She could have been a synchro skater.

And another thing ... if they cheated their kids way in via having some else take tests, etc., how did the kid even manage their way thru college and taking the classes in the first place? They still have to be able to pass the classes to get the degree .... unless they cheated their entire way thru the degree requirements?

As several of us mentioned upthread, Ivies and other selective colleges reject thousands of applicants each year who are very much qualified to attend. With most colleges, the hardest part is getting in. Colleges provide a lot of academic assistance and there is a strong motivation (financial and otherwise) to ensure students graduate. Now, if Lori Loughlin's daughter isn't showing up to class or completing her assignments, flunking out might be justified. But if a student is willing to do the work, they can get through without a problem.

The found that when they made affirmative action need based it helped poor whites. I am not against affirmative action but I think a lot of poor whites in Appalachia or the rust belt would be Shocked to hear their privileged.

We have income inequality in this country and we need to have concerns about it for all races.

This is all true. I believe after the affirmative action lawsuit brought against the U of Michigan some years ago, the university did change its admission policies somewhat to broaden their definition of diversity and recruit/accept more (white) kids from rural/low income backgrounds.

I think interacting with and learning from those who are different from you is an essential part of education. I'm not against admission efforts to create a diverse class. At the same time, I think we need to seriously look at how admissions is done and examine all preferential treatment that is given, to the wealthy and otherwise. Most black students at top colleges are middle to upper-middle class (or wealthier) and graduated from "rich private schools" or well-funded suburban high schools, so in many ways, they had the same educational opportunities as their white neighbors/classmates. When I was in college, it seemed that most black students were similar to me in terms of SES, with usually at least 1 parent with a college degree. This was in the early 90s, so things may be different now.

 

[overedge]

AFAIK, they can if the degree was obtained by fraud (in this case fraud in the admissions process), but they may need to go to court to do so, depending on state law.

Most schools IME require applicants to sign some sort of statement to the effect that everything in the application package is true. If they signed that while knowing that there was fraudulent information in the application, then that would likely be covered either by the admissions policy or the academic conduct policy, and most of those include rescinding any credential as a possible penalty.

 

[Vagabond]

Most schools IME require applicants to sign some sort of statement to the effect that everything in the application package is true. If they signed that while knowing that there was fraudulent information in the application, then that would likely be covered either by the admissions policy or the academic conduct policy, and most of those include rescinding any credential as a possible penalty.

Yes, but that isn't what always happened.

In many of the cases, prosecutors said, the students were not aware that their parents were doctoring their test scores and lying to get them into school. Federal prosecutors did not charge any students or universities with wrongdoing.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/12/us/college-admissions-cheating-scandal.html?action=click&module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage

I haven't had any recent personal experience with college applications, but unless things have radically changed, the applicant is not the one filing transcripts, test scores, or letters of recommendation, let alone the statements of college coaches who say that the applicant will be on a particular sports team.

 

[becca]

I think interacting with and learning from those who are different from you is an essential part of education. I'm not against admission efforts to create a diverse class. At the same time, I think we need to seriously look at how admissions is done and examine all preferential treatment that is given, to the wealthy and otherwise. Most black students at top colleges are middle to upper-middle class (or wealthier) and graduated from "rich private schools" or well-funded suburban high schools, so in many ways, they had the same educational opportunities as their white neighbors/classmates. When I was in college, it seemed that most black students were similar to me in terms of SES, with usually at least 1 parent with a college degree. This was in the early 90s, so things may be different now.

Exactly. I understand that there is anger to becomes some of those spots are now going to African immigrants....African Immigrants are starting to do well in this country. Of course many are the best and brightest who come here.

 

[jeffisjeff]

Colleges usually count US students and international students separately. They wouldn't just lump together black US students and students from Africa. They'd count a student from Spain as an international student, not as Latino. International students tend to pay full tuition and don't get the kind of financial aid US students receive, so they are treated differently.

 

[PRlady]

She could have been a synchro skater.

As several of us mentioned upthread, Ivies and other selective colleges reject thousands of applicants each year who are very much qualified to attend. With most colleges, the hardest part is getting in. Colleges provide a lot of academic assistance and there is a strong motivation (financial and otherwise) to ensure students graduate. Now, if Lori Loughlin's daughter isn't showing up to class or completing her assignments, flunking out might be justified. But if a student is willing to do the work, they can get through without a problem.

This is all true. I believe after the affirmative action lawsuit brought against the U of Michigan some years ago, the university did change its admission policies somewhat to broaden their definition of diversity and recruit/accept more (white) kids from rural/low income backgrounds.

I think interacting with and learning from those who are different from you is an essential part of education. I'm not against admission efforts to create a diverse class. At the same time, I think we need to seriously look at how admissions is done and examine all preferential treatment that is given, to the wealthy and otherwise. Most black students at top colleges are middle to upper-middle class (or wealthier) and graduated from "rich private schools" or well-funded suburban high schools, so in many ways, they had the same educational opportunities as their white neighbors/classmates. When I was in college, it seemed that most black students were similar to me in terms of SES, with usually at least 1 parent with a college degree. This was in the early 90s, so things may be different now.

I swear I’m not picking on you, but this is one of the most common perceptions that turns out not to be true.

Read This. Black children coming from families with similar incomes to privileged white kids still face some really limiting factors. For one thing, their families haven’t built wealth over generations and their economic status is much more precarious. For another, structural racism (see what’s going on at the prestigious Fieldstone School in NY, for instance) exacts all kinds of costs. That black kid from my daughter’s good suburban high school who got into an Ivy still has a tougher road than his white counterpart.

Which isn’t to say that poor white kids don’t need better schools and opportunities, they do.

 

[Yazmeen]

Was it Women's Med? Just curious. They got sketchy with Hahnemann and I think they had to shut down. An acquaintance of mine graduated from WM around 1970 and would be interested. To me it screams like something like that would happen at Drexel (or Temple), though I'm just making an educated guess on that....

This was Hahnemann. I actually graduated from MCP (Women’s) well before the mess when Allegheny Hospital took over both MCP and Hahnemann and nearly killed both. That’s how I’m now technically considered a graduate of Drexel Med (which took over what was left of MCP and Hahnemann after Sherif Abdelhak from Allegheny pretty much bankrupted both previous med schools).

 

[Prancer]

Back in my day, there was no "Honor Code" which I think now is automatic and requires a signature,

The Honor Codes I have seen--which isn't many--don't address the admissions process at all.

What’s “fair” in college admissions?

Yeah, if you've only got so many slots and many more applicants than you have slots, how do you decide which applicants to take?

Someone I know was interviewed at Harvard and was asked what she would bring to Harvard. She said, "Well, I graduated first in my class and I have a blah blah blah SAT score and list of activities as long as my arm." And her interviewer "Yes, so does everyone else who wants to come here. What do YOU bring to Harvard?"

She couldn't think of anything, so she went to Duke, which she always considered downright insulting.

But....the whole concept of admissions based on "character" started as a way to keep too many Jews from getting into Harvard. So it's not like the system isn't and hasn't always been ripe for abuses.

(Especially Asians. If the system is rigged against anyone, it’s them. “Just another Chinese-American with 1600 SAT and 4.0 GPA from California. Rejected!”

This lawsuit will be interesting: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/20/us/harvard-asian-american-students-discrimination.html

Harvard has had to open up some of their admissions files, which has been interesting, too.

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/9/12/harvard-student-admissions-file-analysis/
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/31/us/harvard-freshmen-admissions.html

Most black students at top colleges are middle to upper-middle class (or wealthier) and graduated from "rich private schools" or well-funded suburban high schools, so in many ways, they had the same educational opportunities as their white neighbors/classmates.

For the most part, I think that's a good thing, because poor urban public schools do not prepare students well for college. Even at my low-level school, students from those backgrounds have a very hard time adapting to what is for them a foriegn culture.

https://www.gse.harvard.edu/news/ed/17/05/poor-privileged

I read one article about a kid from a poor urban school at an Ivy, and on his first day of a class, the professor said that the students would be required to write a multi-page paper by the following week. The student laughed out loud because he thought the professor was being funny, then cringed when he saw everyone else just writing down the assignment. He had never written more than a paragraph for school before and had no idea what an essay was. And I was nodding along, because I've had a number of students like that over the years.

They don't do well.

 

[Vagabond]

When I was in college, it seemed that most black students were similar to me in terms of SES, with usually at least 1 parent with a college degree. This was in the early 90s, so things may be different now.

I haven't kept up with trends specific to black students at top universities, but things are different now with respect to students coming from low-income backgrounds, especially those incoming students are the from the first generation in their family to attend college. There are more of them.

In 2005, five percent of the freshman class at the University of Pennsylvania were the first in their family to attend college; in 2018, about fourteen or fifteen percent were.

https://penntoday.upenn.edu/news/pe...rograms-and-support-first-generation-students

In 2013, about ten percent of the freshman class at Yale were such students; in 2018, eighteen percent were.

https://news.yale.edu/2018/08/23/incoming-class-2022-sets-record-socio-economic-diversity-and-yield

The percentage of first-generation students in Harvard's incoming class was about the same as Penn's.

https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/hear-our-students/first-generation-students

To be sure, some of these first-generation students are neither white nor black. But many others were.

Interesting how much the world (or at least the U.S.) changes in just one generation, innit?

 

[becca]

Colleges usually count US students and international students separately. They wouldn't just lump together black US students and students from Africa. They'd count a student from Spain as an international student, not as Latino. International students tend to pay full tuition and don't get the kind of financial aid US students receive, so they are treated differently.

Some are children of legal immigrants. Nigerians are the most educated immigrants in this country. Their kids do well too of course.

There needs to be more educational fairness in our public schools although I don’t know if it can ever be fully equal. A child with two educated parents will always have it easier.

I am glad Ivy League top schools are looking at first generation kids.

 

[overedge]

I haven't had any recent personal experience with college applications, but unless things have radically changed, the applicant is not the one filing transcripts, test scores, or letters of recommendation, let alone the statements of college coaches who say that the applicant will be on a particular sports team.

No, they aren't responsible for filing those documents, because admissions offices want to be sure that those documents come from the source. But applicants are responsible for making sure that things they can control, like test scores, are honest. The University of Washington says this about honesty in applications (from https://registrar.washington.edu/staffandfaculty/academic-falsification/):

Academic falsification occurs when:

1. someone falsely represents to the University of Washington having an academic credential, including, but not limited to, degrees, certificates, grades, and credits, that the person never received or earned;

That could be interpreted as including false test scores or grades on a graduating exam.