Cipres accused of sexual misconduct

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TAHbKA said:
@skateboy, my point was that it's not that all men behave like idiots, but that in order to be safe, unfortunately, all women find themselves at some point in a situation when they don't know whether the male behind them will be the said idiot or you.
For example, when walking alone on a dark street am 99% sure all the men around me are normal human beings, but for that 1% they are not - I'd have to be careful. Just a sad reality where the minority of the men make 100% of the women uncomfortable. So yes, if a man comes behind me in a dark corner and innocently asks what time is it now my first reaction will be feeling really really really uncomfortable and slightly scared. And then stop and look at the watch.
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I've said nearly the same words to a man who says (and I believe him) he never would do anything untoward to women and objects to the generalization voiced. I said I'm always on guard if I don't know a man very well. It's emotionally and physically draining but neccessary for women to be aware, even if 98% of men wouldn't think of sexually harming a woman.
 
PRlady said:
Not that it will make any of us feel any better, but this demonstrates just how awful and widespread the problem of sexual abusers getting away with it is in the sports world:
Click to expand...
From one end of the spectrum to another: the NCAA with billions of $$$$ on the line, and skating, gymnatics, equestrian, etc...

TAHbKA said:
@skateboy, my point was that it's not that all men behave like idiots, but that in order to be safe, unfortunately, all women find themselves at some point in a situation when they don't know whether the male behind them will be the said idiot or you.
For example, when walking alone on a dark street am 99% sure all the men around me are normal human beings, but for that 1% they are not - I'd have to be careful
Click to expand...
There were several memes going around social media about this. The one I remember (ish) best was explaining going to a parking garage and what the person had to think about. (Paraphrasing)

Column A: Men
* I forgot my keys

Column B: Women
*I better have parked in a well-lit place, close to a security camera
*I need to check out the area from afar, to see if anyone is around
*If I see a man, I wait for him to leave.
*My keys are in my fingers in case I'm attacked.
*My finger is poised over the alarm phone app button
*My car uses a fob, so I don't have to waste time fumbling with keys in the door.
*I ask to be accompanied by Security, and hope for the female security guard

and on and on.
 
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maatTheViking said:
I’ve never once discussed the hotness of my male coworkers with any female coworkers. (Granted I work in a male heavy field and when I meet other women the talk often turn to how to succeed as a woman in a male oriented field).

when I was in university, maybe we discussed how cute or hot some of our male peers was, but not in terms of body parts or clothing? Most talk was in terms of dating.
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(the following has nothing to do with Cipres case, cultural differences, his good or bad motivations, if she asked for fotos or not... she was 13, that was illegal.).

... on other, more general issues raised in the process of this discussion:

The whole 1980's and 90's were about approval and in some cases encourangement women being bluntly sexual and talking dirty about men, as part of equality of sexes trend..
www.youtube.com

Sex and the City - Funny Samantha quotes

I was thinking of doing a collection from all seasons but all of these quotes are from seasons 5 and 6 and they were enough for one video. I might make anoth...
www.youtube.com www.youtube.com

....and as Madonna said it "it is all about sex, and I will show people how to be sexually provocative".
www.youtube.com

Madonna - Clip about "Sex" Book on Vh1 Shocking Moments

Madonna discusses the Sex book
www.youtube.com www.youtube.com

.... Madonna, who now claims to be the epitome of PC and women movement, and all other bs she is pushing, made a film where she is gang-raped and enjoys it... "A Certain Sacrifice".
www.youtube.com

A Certain Sacrifice - Madonna - deutscher Trailer

Trailer zum Madonna-Film A CERTAIN SACRIFICE DVD hier erhältlich: http://www.amazon.de/dp/B016TFEKTG
www.youtube.com www.youtube.com

... she and many other "entertainers" created "art" talking dirty, putting men in bondage, grabbing their organs, simulating sexual violence and advances..... there are many examples, i'll just give one Miley Cyrus.... who OH SO POPULAR with teen girls...

She even stuck a Jewish Star of David up her vagina....... But oh, gosh, nobody found that "offensive to the Jews".

There is an absolute and obvious double standard taking place! If any of these "activities on stage/screen" were performed or arranged by men, these men would be lynched!

Women, including me, fight for equal rights with men, not for more rights than men.

But what do we get now? what's ok for a woman, is not ok for man. Had a "slit-pic" been sent instead of "dick-pic" this may have been another story. Even using "slit" will anger people more than "dick" word, and yet they are the same.

I am personally against ANYbody, sending ANY unsolicited fotos of sexual organs, to ANYbody, unless "it is a group of people who willingly agreed in advance that being part of this group includes such exchange". I personally think that any form of "flashing" is an invasion of privacy, unless agreed in advance.

And yet we have another double standard: It is awful for a 13 year old to receive a foto of another's sexual organ (male or female) regardless of the age and gender of the sender. This girl and her parents are correct to be outraged.

... but, at the same time, there is another group of girls and parents, who do not want their girls to be exposed to "male penis" in dressing rooms and bathrooms of their school. But they are called "transgenderphobic" and told by one Judge that the girls' rights to privacy of their bodies and not being exposed to a male naked body/penis is superseded by "more important transgender rights".

“A female student (who is not a plaintiff but who had been sexually assaulted previously) was exposed to Student A’s penis.”
www.forbes.com

Do Students Have A Right Not To Be Seen Naked By Someone Of (Anatomically Speaking) The Other Sex?

Do students have a right to privacy that includes not being seen in a partially clothed or unclothed state by members of the opposite sex? Courts are divided.
www.forbes.com www.forbes.com
 
TAHbKA said:
Too bad too sad. And yet when I walk on the street alone in the dark I'd rather be smart than sorry. Why do the men deserve a benefit of a doubt and I don't deserve a right to walk safely on a street?
Click to expand...

Totally agree. About 20 years ago, I was followed into the ladies room at my job by a very famous man (still living, still famous) who proceeded to back me up against the wall and block the exit. I was "rescued" by the sudden appearance of his wife, who had watched him follow me in. (She was obviously used to him doing this sort of thing) I had had no communication with this man prior to this incident. All I wanted to do was use the ladies room! You bet that from that moment on, when I am in a space with a man, I am always the one near the door, no matter how awkward that makes things. I learned to watch my back, literally and figuratively. If a man's intentions are misunderstood by me, as you said, sorry not sorry! This is called learning the hard way, unfortunately...... (edited for clarity)
 
Just want to touch on some reasons why the parents (who are generally not mandated reporters) might not want to take this to the police.

While some police departments/prosecutor's offices are wonderful about sex offenses others are not. Just look at the whole Jeffery Epstein mess. The last thing a parent wants is some police officer or prosecutor telling the girl she asked for it.

Sexual offender cases against celebrities/athletes are hard.

While some victims find the whole criminal investigation court process liberating others find it re-victimizing and traumatic.

Cost/benefit analysis. The parents have no control on any potential charges brought by a prosecutor and no control over sentencing. The prosecutor could chose to bring lesser charges or cut a sweetheart plea deal. The jury (and I've had several cases lately where I've been really disappointed in juries who did "compromise" verdicts in rape and sexual assault cases involving teenage girls), could acquit or only convict on lesser offenses. The judge could decide that a first-time offender who is going to be deported anyway shouldn't get any jail time. Anyone remember that swimmer in California or those high-school football player who got slaps on the wrist for rape because they had such bright futures. If that happens you could end up with the girl feeling worse than she does now.

If I was a parent I would think long and hard and talk to my child's therapist before getting involved with the criminal justice system. I say this as someone who has worked with that system for over thirty years.
 
just tuned in said:
Pu-lease. The girl has been exposed to all kinds of potentially damaging experiences and is no doubt suffering plenty. Of course I am not blaming her. I don't know if she blames herself, but I would not be surprised if she did, because a lot of victims are inclined to do that. That will be just one part of her healing process.
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Go read what you wrote. You wrote that she feels responsible. You have no basis but your “blame the victim act”.


I think I think we need to do is quit practicing amateur therapy without a license

Your assumption of what this young lady needs to address should include people like you making unwarranted assumptions
 
antmanb said:
I’m sorry but as a fellow man I disagree with you. Toxic masculinity is present everywhere. I’ve worked In at least 8 different corporate businesses/law firms and it’s always the same whenever men are by themselves and feel in “safe” company the talk always turns to sex, inappropriate discussions about female coworkers, their breasts, what they wear, how they’re begging for it and on and on. It’s truly sickening. And the minute you add alcohol to this it gets a hundred times worse.

No it’s not all men, it might not even be a majority of men but enough vocal ones that other men may feel the pressure to keep up with and it starts to look like a majority. And if you speak out about you’re looked at like an alien. There’s a reason Trump genuinely believes there’s nothing wrong with his “locker room” talk.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it’s not that “men think with their members [sic],” which would imply 1. other people don’t experience strong sexual urges, which is wrong and in some ways a dangerous belief to propagate, and 2. Cipres was harassing a 13-year-old out of pure horniness, which is not how sexual abuse works, but rather that many men are traditionally socialised to think they can, and in fact should, act on their urges in ways that violate the personal autonomy of others. (There’s a broad spectrum of sexual and romantic behaviours that fit this description, and only some of them are illegal.) This tendency is often reinforced in groups of men because it’s part of a certain unhealthy ideal of masculinity that confers social status. But men can act in predatory ways totally independently of their friends too.

So parents, teach your sons not to be like that early in life. Consent may be uncomfortable to talk about at first, but it’s important.
 
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I've been thinking about this as I have been reading the thread.

I think part of it when these things happen is we do not want to believe skaters we've enjoyed, and been moved by their programs/performances, or we know them in whatever capacity, would do such a thing--so we try to think, oh gosh, this can't have happened! We want to think the best of people we look up to or whose work we enjoy but often reality shows a different picture. To think like that or to try to offer alternate ideas of what did happen when we don't know many details seems human nature. People are often just sh*t, frankly and if he's done this he's done it before and there's more going on too than we know.

(I'm concerned for this girl in that it seems like her parents weren't the ones who reported it but the therapist? :( I hope she is still getting the help she needs. That's another thing I have been thinking about but maybe it's because I am projecting my own experiences where my mother didn't protect me and denied what happened to me, and still does, years and years later.)
 
There;s another level of disturbing here: the fact that Zimmerman/Fontana tried to leverage "fan harassment" against the girl because it's true. Figure skating fans do have a long history of way OTT stalking and harassment of skaters. Like it's fun to joke about the Tessa/Scott sekret baby blog and the "Fanyus" but honestly, if Yuzuru was accused of doing something terrible, how would the "Fanyus" react?

This harassment has been going on for a long time. Remember the Yunabots and their threats against Mao Asada? And the Sergei widows and their harassment of Ilia Kulik? I think this is something figure skating fans have to hold themselves accountable for -- this idea that it's okay to harass a skater's social media ceaselessly if they "beat" your favorite.

This can lead to a real culture of shame and silence if you're not a big name in figure skating.
 
skateboy said:
Just chiming in, as a male, to say that I am very disappointed that many on this thread have inferred -- or outright said -- that men "think with their members." Sorry, but most men -- yes, even young men -- have their urges in check, know the difference between right and wrong, and have better things to do with their lives than solely being focused on getting their rocks off.

Can you imagine how this thread would blow up if male posters here started making generalized comments about how "women are?"

Please, let's knock it off with the sexist assumptions.
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“...Now an online survey launched in January by a nonprofit called Stop Street Harassment offers some of that missing evidence. It found that 81 percent of women and 43 percent of men had experienced some form of sexual harassment during their lifetime...”

www.npr.org

A New Survey Finds 81 Percent Of Women Have Experienced Sexual Harassment

A nationwide survey found that most women have experienced some form of sexual harassment, many since their teenage years. The results illustrate why the #MeToo movement was so successful.
www.npr.org www.npr.org

Just one quick google search and I am sure I could fill a page with links to studies with similar results. I get it that it must be frustrating to not be one of those men, but the reality is, there are A LOT of those men and many, many of them have gotten away with a wide range of behaviours from mild harassment to rape for hundreds of years. Again, I get you think it is sexist, but men have not been subject to the kind of long term (as in centuries) systemic abuse that women have been and are still regularly subjected to, and the entire world from transportation to city planning to personal protective equipment to office temperatures to job requirements is built completely based on the “average man.” So when people talk about “men,” most do not mean “all men,” but excuse us for not stating that every single time because we are a bit busy just trying to get on in a world built for men where, for the most part, men still hold 99% of the power.
 
I once moved out of an apartment because a neighbor was repeatedly banging on my door in the middle of the night in his drunk-filled rages and following me into elevators and stairs. I moved out within one week. I was that unnerved. I know I'm not alone.
 
Lanie said:
(I'm concerned for this girl in that it seems like her parents weren't the ones who reported it but the therapist? :( I hope she is still getting the help she needs. That's another thing I have been thinking about but maybe it's because I am projecting my own experiences where my mother didn't protect me and denied what happened to me, and still does, years and years later.)
Click to expand...

I deduced from the USAToday article that the victim did not initially tell her parents. Her tutor learned that something was going on (perhaps the victim told her? perhaps the tutor overheard something at the rink?) and suggested that the victim's therapist do some probing. The therapist did so, and what she learned from the victim caused her to notify the parents and the authorities. It sounds as if the parents learned about the incident(s) from the therapist, who had already notified the authorities or was in the process of doing so. Nothing I've read suggests to me that the parents failed their daughter.
 
barbk said:
I'm not puzzled. The skater in question is nowhere to be seen in the multitude of pictures she has posted. She has lots of other skater pics posted. Probably a smart move on her part.
Click to expand...
He is still in earlier photos on Fontana's IG account, FWIW.
 
Carolla5501 said:
Go read what you wrote. You wrote that she feels responsible. You have no basis but your “blame the victim act”.
Click to expand...

As a seven year old child I was raped with a gun to my head by a sexual predator, I can testify that victims (regardless of whether it makes sense) DO often feel responsible, and it lasts long beyond the "I should know better" and therapy years.
 
acraven said:
I deduced from the USAToday article that the victim did not initially tell her parents. Her tutor learned that something was going on (perhaps the victim told her? perhaps the tutor overheard something at the rink?) and suggested that the victim's therapist do some probing. The therapist did so, and what she learned from the victim caused her to notify the parents and the authorities. It sounds as if the parents learned about the incident(s) from the therapist, who had already notified the authorities or was in the process of doing so. Nothing I've read suggests to me that the parents failed their daughter.
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Thanks for that, I was having a hard time wrapping my head around everything with how fast this thread is moving and real life. (I'm no longer in college where I can sit on FSU all day! Drat!)

@peibeck, I am so sorry that happened to you.
 
This just came across my Facebook feed. Sexual misconduct is on a spectrum with a very large range of activities including the killing of women by their intimate partners. The following quote from the article has some relevance to our discussion here:

“...In media coverage of domestic violence, in social media conversations about intimate partner violence, and when we as individuals try to think through why tragedies like the Nov. 24 Schladetzky familicide in Minneapolis occur, the focus too frequently turns to what part the victim played in attracting violence. Our conversations rarely ask why men abuse women.

In an attempt to be helpful, we offer information about how women can leave abusive men or where the local shelters are located. But there are no messages for men about how to handle rage or cope nonviolently with life, and that absence is a telling one.
Socially and culturally, we hold women responsible for the violence that men do,...”

(The bold is mine.)

m.startribune.com

Star Tribune

Your source for Minnesota news today. Read articles, view photos or watch videos about news in Minneapolis, St. Paul, Duluth, St. Cloud, Rochester, and beyond.
m.startribune.com m.startribune.com
 
mag said:
This just came across my Facebook feed.

“...But there are no messages for men about how to handle rage or cope nonviolently with life, and that absence is a telling one.”
Click to expand...
Balderdash.

Of course, the extent to which the messaging is effective is another matter.
 
Vagabond said:
Balderdash.

Of course, the extent to which the messaging is effective is another matter.
Click to expand...

Did you read the article?

“...I’ve studied domestic violence media coverage in scores of publications and hundreds of articles. Here’s what I can tell you about the messages we tell ourselves. Women’s media headlines are terrifying and lurid (“Murdered by the Man of Her Dreams” and “When Love Turns Deadly” in Cosmopolitan, for example); men’s media rarely mention domestic violence and when they do, joke about it (“When Your Honeybee Gets Buzzin’ ” and “Girls Gone Postal” in Men’s Health).

Women are expected to “Spot a Guy Who is Apt to Get Unhinged” and “Talk Your Way Out of Date Rape.” Men’s anger is rarely addressed; in one 10-year-study I did of leading men’s magazines, I could find only one article about it...”
 
There is only one way for a 13 year old girl to not get dick picks.

MEN, DONT SEND DICK PICS.

That’s it. There is nothing else she could have done. Same goes with rape, etc. No matter how you walk in the dark, wear short skirts, etc., the only way to not get raped is for men to not rape. Period.
 
canbelto said:
There;s another level of disturbing here: the fact that Zimmerman/Fontana tried to leverage "fan harassment" against the girl because it's true. Figure skating fans do have a long history of way OTT stalking and harassment of skaters. Like it's fun to joke about the Tessa/Scott sekret baby blog and the "Fanyus" but honestly, if Yuzuru was accused of doing something terrible, how would the "Fanyus" react?

This harassment has been going on for a long time. Remember the Yunabots and their threats against Mao Asada? And the Sergei widows and their harassment of Ilia Kulik? I think this is something figure skating fans have to hold themselves accountable for -- this idea that it's okay to harass a skater's social media ceaselessly if they "beat" your favorite.

This can lead to a real culture of shame and silence if you're not a big name in figure skating.
Click to expand...

It’s why Ashley Wagner did not come forward at 17 when she was sexually assaulted by John C. She was a nobody back then and he was a much bigger star. She would have been sabotaged, no one would have believed her, she would have been dismissed, everyone on skating forums would be saying she wanted attention, she probably would have quit.
She eventually became much bigger than him and that’s why she was taken seriously. It’s really sad.
 
peibeck said:
As a seven year old child I was raped with a gun to my head by a sexual predator, I can testify that victims (regardless of whether it makes sense) DO often feel responsible, and it lasts long beyond the "I should know better" and therapy years.
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I feel very sorry for you. I still do not think it’s appropriate for people on this board to assume they know how the child feels.

the Overall amateur psychological act the poster was putting out needs to be discouraged. Especially if the act is based on her Statement that the kid must’ve encouraged the skater to send him a picture of a penis. Nothing encourages anyone to send a picture of a penis but the ego of the jerk sending.
 
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