Cipres accused of sexual misconduct

[VGThuy]

How come every time a man is accused of sex crimes, people bend over backwards to come up with theories and defenses when none was offered by the accused or anything in the facts explicitly state such things happened? Like it’s so transparent and yet the people doing that one to pretend they are only playing neutral fact finder.

 

[okokok777]

I finally found a bit of time to read through this thread and I want to make something very clear:

1.The USA Today article only published the parts of the allegations that could be corroborated by thoroughly vetted digital evidence. There is so much more to the story - so please keep that in mind when discussing the involved parties. I hope that all of the allegations are thoroughly investigated by the U.S. Center for SafeSport and the authorities & that the responsible parties answer for their crimes (I would add the FFSG to that list but their recent response did not instill any confidence).

2. I am deeply concerned by the mental gymnastics that I've seen some people take to absolve Morgan of wrongdoing. I believe @alilou already posted a link to this thread but I highly suggest that everyone reads through when they have a chance:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1204499721810788354

3. @barbarafan Some of your comments and alternate theories are as alarming as they are inaccurate. Feel free to wait for more information to be released , but please refrain from engaging in victim shaming and abuse apology.

 

[once_upon]

I am not even going into that yet. Anyone who threatened her should be in jail. Apparently Cipres did not do that. If his phone was hacked she might not know that. And if a pic of a male's genitals was going to send her to therapy on it's own I am sure she would not have played along with pizza gate...Again until everything is completely laid out I am not convicting anyone.....which includes the 13 year old girl who participated in a joke which certainly she should not have been included in especially being in a supposedly safe place (her rink where her parents must have been paying a bundle for). We now know there is no such thing as a rink being a safe place.

You have no idea of the trauma that occurs when something like this happens. Quit trivializing it. I speak from my own experience-it is emotional scarring.

Not only is she dealing with sexual misconduct-I would go further tha misconduct but you don't seem to get that, she is dealing with the trauma that her coaches chose the perp over their coaching duties to a minor. That's BIG in trauma.

You are victim blaming/shaming in your defense of him. Not only is he in his 20's but any decent person knows it is wrong.

But then you should know it to

 

[MacMadame]

No they don’t. They do an initial investigation (see Coughlin) and then they can decide whether an interim measure is necessary.

And this is a good thing. Otherwise, anytime someone wanted to harm a skater or coach, they could just report them to SafeSport for some imagined misconduct and watch the person get suspended. Can you imagine if someone who was a fan of one skater reporting the coach of that skater's nearest rival 3 days before the Olympics and then that coach can't accompany their skater to one of the most important competitions of their lifetime?

SafeSport does an initial investigation to make sure the accusations are credible before taking any action at all. Once they decide that accusations are credible, they then decide if the accused is an immediate threat to young people in the sport. Only then do they issue an interim suspension.

The only bad part about this is that SafeSport is so short-handed, these initial investigations can take longer than we'd like when it is a credible report and the behavior being reported does imply that minors are in immediate danger. But I think not having any due process at all would be worse as it would hurt the credibility of the organization.

 

[Ananas Astra]

The worst German tabloid also heard of the story and of course published an article on their front page on it and added a very "nice" picture of Morgan: https://www.bild.de/sport/mehr-spor...vlUMcX78XVz8s8BTWrAo-RlN_KovKh0gBOqf7Vp0clSl4

 

[TygerLily]

I NEVER meant to excuse that behavior. It is appalling and really gross. Don't know what I said that conveyed that.

Sometimes the order in which we write sentences can imply an unintended logical connection. To take one example from this thread, you quoted Gris, who said, "This is so f*cked up." Then, this is what you wrote:

No kidding! I would hate to be a man right now. I have no idea what happened or what did not happen. But boy once a guy is named he is maimed.

The general convention is that topic (first) sentence of a paragraph introduces the main point of the paragraph and then the following sentences act as supporting details or examples that add to the main idea of that first sentence. To break this paragraph down, to many readers, it looks like your argument is "no kidding" that this situation is effed up. Sentence #2, from the reader's perspective, begins your supporting details about why this situation is so effed up. The statement "I would hate to be a man right now" makes it seem like your argument is that this situation is effed up because of the way it affects men. The men in this particular effed up situation are all allegedly the perpetrators, so I suspect your readers are confused about why the paragraph appears to only care about their experience and not the ones of the thirteen-year-old girls in this situation. That may be why we thought you were excusing the men's behaviour. Then, Sentence #3 and #4 confirm that interpretation: you say (quite reasonably) that you "have no idea what happened or what did not happen" but then immediately continue with empathy towards poor men who are falsely accused ("Boy once a guy is named he is maimed"). Therefore, the paragraph focus is still on the men and not the children. Some may even interpret the order of those two sentences to mean "I don't know what happened, but the men are at risk of losing their reputations and we should care more about their reputations than the alleged victims' suffering." Since you're saying that you didn't mean to excuse the men's behaviour, it sounds like this is not what you intended to communicate, but sentence order and paragraphing are powerful tools for communicating ideas, and when dealing with sensitive topics like this, it might be worth double-checking that a paragraph doesn't communicate something significantly different than intended.

If you were to change the sentence order around, add a few relevant details, and change paragraphs when you switch major topics, people might be better able to understand what you meant to convey. For example, something like this would be a lot clearer and would show that you're not excusing the men's behaviour: "No kidding! I would hate that to happen to me/my daughter. <new paragraph> This is off-topic because I have no idea what happened or did not happen in this situation. However, I just need to also express that I would hate to be a man these days because I would never do something like this, so if someone accused me of something like this, it would be a false accusation. Boy once a guy is named he is maimed." (But please note, I'm just guessing that you meant to say something like this. I can't actual tell based on the words on the screen.)

 

[Judy]

Kind of a shock. I’ll be interested in the full investigation along with charges. Kids in sport def need to be protected.

 

[Tinami Amori]

How come every time a man is accused of sex crimes, people bend over backwards to come up with theories and defenses when none was offered by the accused or anything in the facts explicitly state such things happened? Like it’s so transparent and yet the people doing that one to pretend they are only playing neutral fact finder.

In this case? imo - there should be no such. it's a cut and clear case - 3 different offenses were committed against a minor, by 4 adults (as far as we know now). Not only offenses were committed, but there are several counts of provable and clearly visible damages to this minor. The specifics "why, how, what was intended, etc", are interesting, but it does not diminish the severity of offenses.

But in the whole picture, there is a tendency to "hype" and in some cases to exaggerate, and in some cases to sweep everything into one basket, minor and major, "gray area cases" and obvious cases. Sort of like when an employee takes a pencil home from work, another eats an apple in a store without paying, and another commits an armed home invasion resulting in death, it is all called "high crime robbery". And the news headlines don't help, and people reading it often jump to conclusions depending on their social and political stands, and their perceptions based on "who did it".

I see headlines of this incident in various publications, including foreign. The description of the case varies between: assault, harassment, offense, misconduct, explicit photos to minor, indecent exposure to minor, lewd conduct, etc. These variations do make a difference in readers' perception.

There is an interesting story in the french sports press, somewhat relevant to given situation.

A french volleyball player, while on a tour in Brazil, after the game, while in public, walked behind a young woman and slapped her on her butt. He was arrested, then released on bail, and now back in France. The Brazilian court has not yet decided if they will prosecute the case further.

Baller's explanation was that he mistook this woman (from the back) from the one he thought was his friend. As to an explanation why he would slap-butt of any woman, he said:

«en France, toucher les fesses d'une femme ne constituait pas une agression, ni une offense ».
"in France, touching a woman's rear-end is not considered an assault or an offense".

The headings in the french press state "sexual harassment", which is correct. In USA it could very well be headlined as "sexual assault"... and there is a difference.

Volley : arrêté pour harcèlement sexuel au Brésil, Ngapeth en liberté conditionnelle

La star de l’équipe de France est accusée d’avoir fessé une jeune femme lors d’une fête. Le volleyeur évoque un « malentendu ».

www.leparisien.fr

 

[AxelAnnie]

Which brings us back to--what makes you think it was a joke?

Are you talking about the allegations? I don't think anyone here thinks it is a joke, or funny.

 

[clairecloutier]

There is a French article about the Cipres case that states (translated):

"The Federation (French Ice Sports) manages the situation with him, he [Cipres] took a lawyer and he does not intend to let it go," said only his press, contacted by AFP, without confirming the opening an investigation.

Patinage: enquête sur Morgan Ciprès pour des photos obscènes envoyées à une mineure - RFI

Patinage: enquête sur Morgan Ciprès pour des photos obscènes envoyées à une mineure

www.rfi.fr

 

[AxelAnnie]

Sometimes the order in which we write sentences can imply an unintended logical connection. To take one example from this thread, you quoted Gris, who said, "This is so f*cked up." Then, this is what you wrote:

The general convention is that topic (first) sentence of a paragraph introduces the main point of the paragraph and then the following sentences act as supporting details or examples that add to the main idea of that first sentence. To break this paragraph down, to many readers, it looks like your argument is "no kidding" that this situation is effed up. Sentence #2, from the reader's perspective, begins your supporting details about why this situation is so effed up. The statement "I would hate to be a man right now" makes it seem like your argument is that this situation is effed up because of the way it affects men. The men in this particular effed up situation are all allegedly the perpetrators, so I suspect your readers are confused about why the paragraph appears to only care about their experience and not the ones of the thirteen-year-old girls in this situation. That may be why we thought you were excusing the men's behaviour. Then, Sentence #3 and #4 confirm that interpretation: you say (quite reasonably) that you "have no idea what happened or what did not happen" but then immediately continue with empathy towards poor men who are falsely accused ("Boy once a guy is named he is maimed"). Therefore, the paragraph focus is still on the men and not the children. Some may even interpret the order of those two sentences to mean "I don't know what happened, but the men are at risk of losing their reputations and we should care more about their reputations than the alleged victims' suffering." Since you're saying that you didn't mean to excuse the men's behaviour, it sounds like this is not what you intended to communicate, but sentence order and paragraphing are powerful tools for communicating ideas, and when dealing with sensitive topics like this, it might be worth double-checking that a paragraph doesn't communicate something significantly different than intended.

If you were to change the sentence order around, add a few relevant details, and change paragraphs when you switch major topics, people might be better able to understand what you meant to convey. For example, something like this would be a lot clearer and would show that you're not excusing the men's behaviour: "No kidding! I would hate that to happen to me/my daughter. <new paragraph> This is off-topic because I have no idea what happened or did not happen in this situation. However, I just need to also express that I would hate to be a man these days because I would never do something like this, so if someone accused me of something like this, it would be a false accusation. Boy once a guy is named he is maimed." (But please note, I'm just guessing that you meant to say something like this. I can't actual tell based on the words on the screen.)

Thanks for your thoughts.

My last sentence was meant to say that once the man is named, he is toast. Look at the length of this thread? It is big news and salacious.

In no way did I indent my comment to lessen the horrific nature of the alleged incident, or the victim's pain.

Can you imagine that Cipres, if even proved innocent would ever be able to skate again? I don't think he can ever be redeemed at this point. I in no way discount the victim's pain, suffering.

 

[VGThuy]

@Tinami Amori I think in all of these cases, none of us are acting as investigators or fact finders. I say let the facts come out when they do, and try not to look like you’re trying way too hard to defend or excuse the accused since none of us have any of the facts. I do think we go too far some times in not letting due process take its course when it comes to the rights of the accused but I understand it since historically, these types of accusations are not met with support, met with tons of defenders, and most victims do not come forward for very real and legitimate fear. The conviction rates of these matters are also incredibly low compared to most crimes. I also think it’s telling when people get up in arms about due process and the rights of the accused only in these cases. It reveals so much.

 

[Tinami Amori]

@Tinami Amori I think in all of these cases, none of us are acting as investigators or fact finders. I say let the facts come out when they do, and try not to look like you’re trying way too hard to defend or excuse the accused since none of us have any of the facts. I do think we go too far some times in not letting due process take its course when it comes to the rights of the accused but I understand it since historically, these types of accusations are not met with support, met with tons of defenders, and most victims do not come forward for very real and legitimate fear. The conviction rates of these matters are also incredibly low compared to most crimes. I also think it’s telling when people get up in arms about due process and the rights of the accused only in these cases. It reveals so much.

I agree with you logic, you're right to point out those aspects. At the same time, "two wrongs - don't make it right". to finish my point (about general issues, not this case), a slap on the butt in a public place, and an attempted rape for example, given both are illegal, should not be dumped into one basket and labeled the same.

 

[TygerLily]

Thanks for your thoughts.

My last sentence was meant to say that once the man is named, he is toast. Look at the length of this thread? It is big news and salacious.

In no way did I indent my comment to lessen the horrific nature of the alleged incident, or the victim's pain.

Can you imagine that Cipres, if even proved innocent would ever be able to skate again? I don't think he can ever be redeemed at this point. I in no way discount the victim's pain, suffering.

Thank you for clarifying.

 

[Aerobicidal]

I think there's a risk (if not inevitability) that, if we downplay some types of harassment or assault because they seem less serious than others, we trivialize the experiences of survivors. It's one thing to say that there's a difference between someone like Jeffrey Epstein and someone who pinched a butt once. However, focusing on distinctions like that very quickly leads into murky territory where survivors and their trauma can be trivialized or erased.

On the other hand, I'm not saying 100 percent of the focus should be on survivors, because understanding the whole context that creates and enables abuse is important in thinking about how to try to stop it. That's one reason stories like these are frustrating: there's so much we'll never know (and again, that isn't to say we should know it).

 

[overedge]

"Once the man is named, he is toast". What about Silvia Fontana? She probably isn't going to come out of this looking too good either.

Sorry, but focusing on what happens to the accused and the consequences for them trivializes the experience of the victim, simply by omission. And especially when the first reaction is to complain about how careful men have to be these days.

 

[AxelAnnie]

I agree with you logic, you're right to point out those aspects. At the same time, "two wrongs - don't make it right". to finish my point (about general issues, not this case), a slap on the butt in a public place, and an attempted rape for example, given both are illegal, should not be dumped into one basket and labeled the same.

You are correct. And no kidding. I think that is why we have different charges for different offences.

 

[Tinami Amori]

"Once the man is named, he is toast". What about Silvia Fontana? She probably isn't going to come out of this looking too good either.

Technically, if we look at this as a legal formula, Fontana would not be accused of sexual misconduct/harassment of a minor. She would be accused of pressuring/bulling a minor into not reporting offense against this minor (in order to protect her skater) and covering up/not reporting an "offense" herself, which she has to by law.

But this "offense" by Fontana's skater could have been "non-sexual related" and yet just as offensive, like stealing the girl's wallet and equipment, or hitting her in an argument. Fontana is presumably guilty of bullying, pressuring, covering up, not reporting "an offense that has to be reported".

 

[canbelto]

I was very disturbed looking at Sylvia Fontana's Instagram ... No comment why. Just take a look.

 

[Judy]

Thanks for your thoughts.

My last sentence was meant to say that once the man is named, he is toast. Look at the length of this thread? It is big news and salacious.

In no way did I indent my comment to lessen the horrific nature of the alleged incident, or the victim's pain.

Can you imagine that Cipres, if even proved innocent would ever be able to skate again? I don't think he can ever be redeemed at this point. I in no way discount the victim's pain, suffering.

Yes I understand your point.

For me I like to deal with the facts which can only be brought about by a thorough investigation and court case if it gets to that. That does not mean I don’t believe the victim at all or feel horrible for her. It’s impossible to make guesses why or how this happened simply because we don’t know everything yet. I do feel strongly that kids need to be more protected for sure though especially living away from home.

 

[MacMadame]

Can you imagine that Cipres, if even proved innocent would ever be able to skate again?

Yes, I can imagine it. After all, Louis CK is back doing standup. And R. Kelly still has a singing career.

It's a fairy tale that such accusations will ruin a man, especially if later proven untrue. They often don't ruin a man even when they are true.

 

[Sylvia]

IMO there's no need to read/see anything sinister in Silvia Fontana's Instagram account. She has photos of her 3 kids, husband & their skaters.

Of course, some will see what they want to see.

 

[Alilou]

IMO there's no need to read/see anything sinister in Silvia Fontana's Instagram account. She has photos of her 3 kids, husband & their skaters.

Of course, some will see what they want to see.

Yes, really. I was completely puzzled by @canbelto's comment.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Yes I understand your point.

For me I like to deal with the facts which can only be brought about by a thorough investigation and court case if it gets to that. That does not mean I don’t believe the victim at all or feel horrible for her. It’s impossible to make guesses why or how this happened simply because we don’t know everything yet. I do feel strongly that kids need to be more protected for sure though especially living away from home.

Well said.

 

[OrioleBeagle]

Deleted

 

[missing]

I forced my brother the lawyer to say if he were in F/Z's situation, he would call a lawyer (I can be very convincing with a knife in my hand), but he said the first person he would have called was Morgan Cipres.

He also asked if Cipres knew the age of the people he was sending the pictures to. Was there any chance Cipres thought he was sending the pictures to a 28 year old?

I said Cipres knew the pictures were going to minors, but now that I've reread the Brennan piece for the 5th or 6th time, I can no longer say that:

On Dec. 3, 2017, Cipres allegedly direct messaged two photos of his penis on Instagram to the girl, who skated at the same rink as Cipres in Wesley Chapel, Fla. USA TODAY Sports has reviewed those messages, which were sent from what appears to be Cipres’ verified account.

The girl and her parents said a fourth adult also was involved in the alleged incident. Vinny Dispenza, another coach at the AdventHealth Center Ice rink, allegedly told the girl and another underage girl, whose family could not be reached for comment, to message Cipres asking him to send the photos to the girls in exchange for the promise of a pizza from Dispenza.

We know that Cipres dmed two photographs of his penis to at least one girl because USA Today Sports reviewed those messages. But Christine Brennan doesn't say that USA Today Sports read the message asking Cipres to send the photos.

I don't know how Instagram works. Other people here do and will explain it to me. Does one use one's real name? Does one include one's birthdate?

If Instagram does not require those pieces of information then it is within the realm of possibility the girls didn't reveal who they were or what their ages were. Or even if they did give their names, Cipres, who is training for the Olympics, might not have known who the girls were by name.

Here's are two theoretical messages:

Hi Morgan. I made a bet with Vinny Dispenza that you'd send me and my friend pictures of your penis. If I win, I get a pizza. Love, your biggest fan, Girl A (age 13)

Hi Morgan. No, I'm your biggest fan. Send me the pictures too. Love- Girl B (I'm the one at the rink who wears a pink dress and I'm a minor too)

Let me make two things clear. First of all, I think anyone with the remotest level of celebrity who sends intimate pictures to strangers or near strangers is an idiot. By that standard, Morgan Cipres is an idiot.

The second thing is anyone, child or adult, who prompts minors to solicit intimate photographs is scum. By that standard, Vinny Dispenza is scum.

But by my standards, while Vinny Dispenza is scum and quite possibly an idiot, I don't have proof from Brennan's article that Morgan Cipres is both an idiot and scum.

 

[The Observer]

I disagree because usually when a “star” or someone in a position of power is the one conducting such behavior, then it goes hand-in-hand with seemingly good people covering it up. So I don’t find one act worse or more shocking than the other. And if we’re going to act all shocked about John and Silvia’s behavior, then I rather not normalize Cipres’ behavior or treat it as a background detail.

I agree with you. That's kind of what I was getting at.

Even people who are known to be good people can sometimes cover things up if a lot of money or reputations are at stake. Perhaps John & Silvia wanted to protect the reputation & income to their coaching school. That will presumably be part of the investigation.

 

[canbelto]

I guess I view Fontana/Zimmerman as worse because as coaches they are entrusted by parents to ensure the safety of their pupils. They are also mandated reporters. If what Brennan is reporting is true, they instead threatened and harassed the 13 year old girl to the point where she left the sport and is in therapy.

It's why I think the Catholic priests are so despicable. Parents used to trust the priests with their kids' lives.

 

[kittyjake5]

Yes, I can imagine it. After all, Louis CK is back doing standup. And R. Kelly still has a singing career.

It's a fairy tale that such accusations will ruin a man, especially if later proven untrue. They often don't ruin a man even when they are true.

Michael Jackson comes to mind.

 

[firstflight]

I forced my brother the lawyer to say if he were in F/Z's situation, he would call a lawyer (I can be very convincing with a knife in my hand), but he said the first person he would have called was Morgan Cipres.

He also asked if Cipres knew the age of the people he was sending the pictures to. Was there any chance Cipres thought he was sending the pictures to a 28 year old?

I said Cipres knew the pictures were going to minors, but now that I've reread the Brennan piece for the 5th or 6th time, I can no longer say that:

On Dec. 3, 2017, Cipres allegedly direct messaged two photos of his penis on Instagram to the girl, who skated at the same rink as Cipres in Wesley Chapel, Fla. USA TODAY Sports has reviewed those messages, which were sent from what appears to be Cipres’ verified account.

The girl and her parents said a fourth adult also was involved in the alleged incident. Vinny Dispenza, another coach at the AdventHealth Center Ice rink, allegedly told the girl and another underage girl, whose family could not be reached for comment, to message Cipres asking him to send the photos to the girls in exchange for the promise of a pizza from Dispenza.

We know that Cipres dmed two photographs of his penis to at least one girl because USA Today Sports reviewed those messages. But Christine Brennan doesn't say that USA Today Sports read the message asking Cipres to send the photos.

I don't know how Instagram works. Other people here do and will explain it to me. Does one use one's real name? Does one include one's birthdate?

If Instagram does not require those pieces of information then it is within the realm of possibility the girls didn't reveal who they were or what their ages were. Or even if they did give their names, Cipres, who is training for the Olympics, might not have known who the girls were by name.

Here's are two theoretical messages:

Hi Morgan. I made a bet with Vinny Dispenza that you'd send me and my friend pictures of your penis. If I win, I get a pizza. Love, your biggest fan, Girl A (age 13)

Hi Morgan. No, I'm your biggest fan. Send me the pictures too. Love- Girl B (I'm the one at the rink who wears a pink dress and I'm a minor too)

Let me make two things clear. First of all, I think anyone with the remotest level of celebrity who sends intimate pictures to strangers or near strangers is an idiot. By that standard, Morgan Cipres is an idiot.

The second thing is anyone, child or adult, who prompts minors to solicit intimate photographs is scum. By that standard, Vinny Dispenza is scum.

But by my standards, while Vinny Dispenza is scum and quite possibly an idiot, I don't have proof from Brennan's article that Morgan Cipres is both an idiot and scum.

The explanations of how Instagram DM works and how that informs the facts is within the first few pages of this thread. Multiple people have explained why therefore it is completely implausible for him to send pics without knowing who he was chatting with and sending the pics to.