Canadian Ice Dance 2016-17 season news & updates

[skoppa]

I mean, if you want to get into it, Kaitlyn and Andrew have been around just as long as V/M and are in fact older than they are...

are they not the same age?

 

[A judge]

Kaitlyn and Tessa were both born in 1989 and Andrew and Scott were both born in 1987. If you want to get technical Kaitlyn is one month older than Tessa and Andrew is 6 months older than Scott.

 

[Sylvia]

Weaver/Poje teamed up in August 2006 and debuted on the JGP that fall, aged 17 & 19 (10 international seasons together through 2016).

Virtue/Moir teamed up in 1997 and debuted internationally in 2003, aged 14 & 16 (11 international seasons together through 2014).

ETA: W/P have competed at 8 Worlds (1 silver, 1 bronze); V/M at 7 Worlds (2 gold, 3 silver, 1 bronze).

 

[caitie]

I mean, if you want to get into it, Kaitlyn and Andrew have been around just as long as V/M and are in fact older than they are...

The difference is obviously that V/M have been together nearly 20 years, went to two Olympics and narrowly missed a third, already have three Olympic medals including a gold they earned at home, and practically did a farewell tour in 2013-14.

As a team, W/P have been around half as long.

 

[pani]

WP debute at WCh with VM in 2007. So they competed at the senior level even longer.

 

[princeton123]

The difference is obviously that V/M have been together nearly 20 years, went to two Olympics and narrowly missed a third, already have three Olympic medals including a gold they earned at home, and practically did a farewell tour in 2013-14.

As a team, W/P have been around half as long.

How have they been around "half as long"? V/M competed internationally for 11 seasons, W/P for 10. V/M have been to 7 Worlds, W/P to 8. They both debuted at their first Worlds in 2007. W/P won silver at Canadian Nationals behind V/M in 2008. W/P have been successful half as long as V/M, but they have "been around" just as long as they have (and even longer with V/M's two-year hiatus from the sport).

Not that any of this matters. I only brought up Kaitlyn and Andrew because no one's harping on them to retire and give younger teams a chance when they've "been around" just as long.

 

[Sylvia]

Virtue started skating with Moir when she was 7, according to a 2007 article I found. This obviously gives the impression that V/M have been around together much longer as a team than W/P.

 

[VGThuy]

I think the impression mainly comes from the fact that V/M have been a top-tier team for a lot longer. In fact only them and D/W were considered top tier for five seasons as no other team could beat them. Those two teams were simply the faces of ice dancing for all those seasons. WeaPo were part of the second tier until 2014 Worlds where they finally had a chance to win a world title with V/M and D/W not being there. Also, every Olympic cycle seems to welcome a new guard who will shape and be considered part of the top of the field and WeaPo are seen as part of a new guard post-2014 while V/M's past successes make them seem like part of the old guard despite the fact that they are very similar in age and have competed in the senior international level for nearly the same amount of time. Also, WeaPo didn't compete in the top international competitions (Worlds, Olympics) for two seasons (2008-2009 and 2009-2010) that V/M did, so that also adds to the perception.

 

[princeton123]

Are we really counting novice and pre-novice and pre-pre-novice competitions now....

 

[Sylvia]

Tweet & photo by Thomas Williams (partnered with Sarah Arnold) on April 26: https://twitter.com/thomascwill/status/725083734131675136
Hashtags used: #choreo #freezing #gettingoldforthis (getting old for this)

 

[caitie]

Are we really counting novice and pre-novice and pre-pre-novice competitions now....

Do you not want their gold and silver Junior World Championship medals to count either? They have been skating together for 19 years. W/P will have been together 10 years this coming August. That's half as long. V/M skated seniors in Canada two seasons before W/P even got together. Weaver and Poje qualified for their first GPF the same season Virtue and Moir went to the Olympics and won a gold medal.

 

[marbri]

http://tessavirtueandscottmoir.tumblr.com/image/9289690332

There is Andrew pictured with those old folks. He may not be with Kaitlyn as long (though a decade is still a long time and certainly enough time to gel and reach your best) but he has been on the international senior scene with her as long as those four geriatric patients he is pictured with

 

[Zazy]

Are we really arguing about how long teams have been together as a way of justifying their right to compete?

I'm with marbri, signs point to SC not being very supportive of V/M's comeback. If anything, it's their excessive support of G/P that's blocking teams from moving up. No matter what they do, I doubt lower-ranked teams have much of a chance of passing G/P in the next two years when in reality the gap isn't that large. It's frustrating but it's not G/P's fault and I'm not going to start calling on them to retire.

Every team has a right to compete. Obviously politics are a big problem in the sport but basically people would want to stop a team from competing so that they won't prevent another team from achieving a competition goal. How is that fair? Either way one team doesn't get what they want and are prevented from doing so because of politics or unofficial political rules. Except that, if V/M compete, there's actually a chance a lower-ranked team wil get SC, make the 4CC, world or Olympic team. There's a chance W/P will make a world or olympic podium or even top one. Are some of these possibilities likely? No but they're possible. And if VM had decided not to compete because it isn't the politically appropriate thing to do, we'd be deprived of their skating, they'd be prevented from competing in the sport (something that they want to do) AND there's no guarantee your favourite team would achieve their goals.

This kind of talk only reinforces the hold politics has on the sport, it gives into it. I don't blame skaters for choosing to quit this very expensive sport if they don't like their odds but just look at the Shibs as an example of a team who in one season did the (supposedly) impossible. They should have retired because it's all predetermined so there's no point, they already had a world medal and they were never going to get another one. Right?

 

[manhn]

Considering HOW DAMN OLD W&P and V&M are, who's expecting them to stay til 2022? Doubtful. Most of the teams who split up should have seen 2022--not 2018--as their end game. Even if V&M didn't return, the #3 team was likely going to be P&O or P&I.

 

[NorthernDancers]

I read a really interesting article a couple of days ago that I think has some relevance to this conversation:

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/sports-participation-canada-kids-1.3573955

When I look at how the sport of ice dance is developing in Canada, I think it is at risk of being damaged by a number of the themes mentioned:

• increased pressure to push down too much difficulty on younger and younger kids. The Senior dances are pushed down to the Juniors, and so on all the way down to Pre-Novice. We now have 10 year olds competing the blues. It's ridiculous. While it is possible to teach young kids the steps, do we really want a 10 year old to interpret the dance properly, like we would see from a 20 year old? We now have Juvenile teams routinely achieving level 4 lifts and level 3 twizzles. In order to be able to do the difficult tricks, you need kids with particular body types. That eliminates a whole lot of kids who have an awkward stage before they grow into beautiful swans. And how many tall girls are left out of the sport because boys often don't grow up until they'd be the right age for Junior or even Senior?

• the push to identify and support "it" teams very early. There is no question that skating is an early specialization sport. But I think dance is/should be a little different. I very rarely get too excited about teams until they hit senior, since there is so much that can happen through the formative years - personality changes and incompatibility, physical match problems (1 partner outgrows the other), different interests, and so on. It used to be normal for teams to form at Senior and then achieve success over a number of years (for example, Dubrieul/Lauzon - they were awful the first few years, and then grew to be amazing). It was normal to see teams achieve their best success in their early 30's (ie. Dubrieul/Lauzon, Wing/Lowe, Delobel/Schoenfelder, etc.). Now teams are clearly "over the hill" and should leave the sport by the time they are in their mid 20's? I look at the teams over the last few years that have been supported heavily by Skate Canada, and they have all hit a wall at Senior. Suddenly those things that made success and achievement of levels at the lower ranks possible, are now liabilities. Young now means immature on an international stage. Smaller size now means poor ice coverage and lack of power. Look at Paul/Islam, Ralph/Hill, Bent/McKeen, DelMaestro/Lum, even Edwards/Pang. There is not a single Weaver/Poje to be found in the lower ranks. There would be no place for them in the current system. We wouldn't have the patience while they grow and develop, and they would not have a chance. Dubrieul and Lauzon would not have a chance in the current system. We need to overhaul the LongTerm Athlete Development Program for dance. We need to identify more kids based on drive, work ethic and capability to learn, good basic skills, musicality and overall love of the sport. We need to support a lot of them, and each one according to their own development. We need to put a greater emphasis at the lower levels on quality skating, edges, etc and less on levels. By the time these kids grow up and get to Junior and then Senior,we will have a broader pool of athletes from which to identify those who are ready to achieve success internationally. Levels can be learned. They will have the basic skills to compete.

• a tremendous lack of funding. This goes hand in hand with the points above. Along with the overhaul of LTAD, we need to have a comprehensive plan to reduce the costs of skating from Pre-novice up. We need to do more with more kids, and at less cost. We need some creative thinkers, and some comprehensive funding plans. I think it's doable if there is a will.

• the need for stronger role models. The article talks about role models for girls. In skating, we need to find and support the boys. Our boys need strong role models (Scott Moir and Andrew Poje are pretty good at it, and we have some strong male coaches), especially in areas where there are not a lot of male skaters. Toronto, Waterloo, Vancouver, Montreal all are boy-friendly places. But there are still small towns where boys are not allowed to like skating, nevermind dance, and where being a skater might result in being ostracized and beaten up. Western Ontario Section had boys' seminars a few years back - skating with Kurt Browning, Krav Maga with Dylan Moskovitch. It was an important, empowering experience for a lot of boys. Battle of the Blades did a lot to improve attitudes about boys and skating. We need good mentorship programs.

 

[lauravvv]

Is this a team returning or SC wanting them to come back to secure a medal and more spots on worlds and Olympic?

They have talked at length about their personal motivation in this (not being completely satisfied with what they have done before - in terms of skating, programs etc., wanting to do more and something different/more edgy, also the desire to win another Olympic gold, as well as simply missing competion and the training, discipline and goals that go with it - in short, a lot of valid reasons) in several interviews by now. Normally people can't lie that convincingly.

 

[nadioso]

I read a really interesting article a couple of days ago that I think has some relevance to this conversation:

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/sports-participation-canada-kids-1.3573955

When I look at how the sport of ice dance is developing in Canada, I think it is at risk of being damaged by a number of the themes mentioned:

• increased pressure to push down too much difficulty on younger and younger kids. The Senior dances are pushed down to the Juniors, and so on all the way down to Pre-Novice. We now have 10 year olds competing the blues. It's ridiculous. While it is possible to teach young kids the steps, do we really want a 10 year old to interpret the dance properly, like we would see from a 20 year old? We now have Juvenile teams routinely achieving level 4 lifts and level 3 twizzles. In order to be able to do the difficult tricks, you need kids with particular body types. That eliminates a whole lot of kids who have an awkward stage before they grow into beautiful swans. And how many tall girls are left out of the sport because boys often don't grow up until they'd be the right age for Junior or even Senior?

Some excellent points indeed. I kind of felt sorry for the novice dancers trying to do the Cha Cha Congelado. The dance was obviously above the skill levels of most of these dancers.

To be said some of this pressure can be blamed on the ISU JGP circuit and the ranking system which puts pressures on teams all over the world to get as many ISU ranking points before they age out. The older pairs you stated before never had to worry about "ISU ranking" or getting as many points as very young dancers.

Most junior teams get much higher marks on the JGP circuit than they would get as seniors and it is harder for them to get the ranking points from senior B's than from JGPs.

 

[pani]

After all this split's Canada could stay without strong ice dance teams after 2018 OG. All this teams could have there time in 2022.
As for Asher and Nichole - this two just need time, skated so little time together and show such a level of skating, could you imaging what they could show after two years skating together? Sad.
Sad also for Delmaestro-Lum. With Noa they had a lot off personality, but she overgrow him and Briana they had good height-weight ballance.
I wish Bent wii find new patner. Dmitriy not at her level at all and i am not sure ever will be.

 

[kates8]

Considering HOW DAMN OLD W&P and V&M are, who's expecting them to stay til 2022? Doubtful. Most of the teams who split up should have seen 2022--not 2018--as their end game. Even if V&M didn't return, the #3 team was likely going to be P&O or P&I.

The amount of money and time spent to linger in the 4-10th spot in Canada (and US) is huge and most likely a bit demotivating when you see no upward opening for a couple of years. The top 3 teams are strong and fabulous but will now have all the Grand Prix assignments tied up and probably any Sr. B that they ask for. So the most any team in 4-10th spot can hope for is a minor Sr B or Challenger and with little to no funding and not a lot of assignments to gather points/min scores. That might be too much output for very little payout of some teams

 

[manhn]

So, skaters placed 4-10 in Japan, China, Russia, etc are lappin' it up in luxury? I can't see how this is specific to Canada.

 

[Dobre]

I strongly disagree with the idea of only supporting three or four dance teams. Depth is key. Just ask Russia, who lost not one, but three teams in one go right after the Olympics and has now likely lost two others. For a while, it looked like Russia might well lose Bobrova & Soloviev a second time as well. Injuries, especially, are always a plausible reality. The fact is that it takes longer to get to the top in dance and costs more to reach that point. The top athletes aren't teenagers all supported by their parents. Individuals don't win as much prize money as singles skaters (I really disagree with this). And endorsement deals are more rare. Of course money is an issue.

But Canada doesn't have a huge amount of depth in the junior ranks right now, not to the point that those athletes are pushing the seniors out. Bent & Razgulajevs and Pang & Edwards could shake things up in the senior ranks, but they aren't coming in with threatening resumes. Looking down the line to 2022, there is plenty of reason to believe that senior teams currently outside the top three could have just as good a shot at dominating for another quadrennium.

 

[levineismine]

Two for the Ice posted an in depth interview with Paul/Islam on their decision to keep skating towards 2018 and their new goals for the season. Interesting read!

http://www.twofortheice.com/past-prologue-paul-islam-carry/

 

[kwanfan1818]

Thank you so much for posting @levineismine!

The footnotes at the end are the best part!

 

[kwanfan1818]

So, skaters placed 4-10 in Japan, China, Russia, etc are lappin' it up in luxury? I can't see how this is specific to Canada.

I know that funding has been cut post-secondary, but at least some of 4-10 in Russia are subsidized heavily, between coaching, choreography - - maybe not Morozov, but there are plenty of in-house choreographers that don't cost extra money - - plus physio, dance, and other off-site training. There are also more opportunities for show skating in Russia and Europe.

No one is living a life of luxury in China - - World Champions and Olympic medalists Shenandoah and Zhao were still living in dorms - - and I'm not sure if they have more than five ID teams in China, but everything is paid for at that level: they're not living in their cars or running auto-detailing businesses on the side to afford to get their blades sharpened.

 

[euterpe]

IMO, there is one big reason why W/P aren't being pressured to step down while there is grousing about V/M's return, and it has nothing to do with age and the number of Worlds attended. The difference is the number of major championships won by the two teams. V/M have won the OGM, a silver Olympic (individual) medal and two World Championships, while W/P have been striving for years to win that World gold medal, but have so far had to settle for one World silver (2014) and one World bronze (2015). With the rise of Papadakis / Cizeron, the resurgence of US teams after the departure of D/W, and now the return of V/M, W/P's future prospects seem bleak, so they have underdog sympathies on their side.

 

[Dobre]

I like Weaver & Poje--and have always liked Weaver & Poje--because they stand out from all the other Canadian teams. They have a different style. Different strengths. Kaitlyn is one of only two human beings on the planet that I have ever felt could skate up to Roxanne. She has some of the strongest abs in the sport. Their speed, when they skate free, is great. And they can skate with intricacy while maintaining that speed. They have chemistry. They can pull off the drama.

They have something to contribute to Canadian ice dance.

 

[Moustaffask8r]

I like Weaver & Poje--and have always liked Weaver & Poje--because they stand out from all the other Canadian teams. They have a different style. Different strengths. Kaitlyn is one of only two human beings on the planet that I have ever felt could skate up to Roxanne. She has some of the strongest abs in the sport. Their speed, when they skate free, is great. And they can skate with intricacy while maintaining that speed. They have chemistry. They can pull off the drama.

They have something to contribute to Canadian ice dance.

I agree 100%... The only thing going against them is tha they don't train in Canada...and SC wants their skaters with their coach in Canada

 

[mirage]

I agree 100%... The only thing going against them is tha they don't train in Canada...and SC wants their skaters with their coach in Canada

I think SC is quite fine with skaters not being coached in Canada.

 

[Dobre]

You can never beat the best by looking the same as someone else. You have to be yourselves.

 

[manhn]

V&M and Patrick trained outside of Canada for much of their careers. B&K. D&L.