Bobrova and Soloviev out of Worlds

[clairecloutier]

Read posts #20 & #22 as a start.

Don't know yet if athletes outside of Eastern Europe/Russia were affected. I am wondering if this drug has been commonly used in this part of the world?

It's been stated in a couple articles that meldonium is primarily used in eastern Europe. It was apparently developed, and is mostly manufactured, in Latvia.

 

[Sylvia]

So, it was legal until January? Why did Bobrova take it? In fact why would any athlete take it?

@AngieNikodinovLove - from earlier in this thread:

http://www.sport-express.ru/figure-skating/news/974802/
... it says that the doping probe [sample] was taken during the Europeans. That the drug is widely used in Russian sport (at least before the ban), that it became illegal Jan.1, it promotes endurance and quick muscle recovery. WADA classified it as S4, a serious "hormones and metabolic drugs" offense, that can lead to a 4 year ban.

Summary of an interview with Bobrova published yesterday from earlier in this thread:

http://rsport.ru/figure_skating/20160308/902335536.html
...
-When it was still permitted, she took it to help with heart function when it was put under heavy strain & to aide muscle recovery, but she stopped taking it a month & a half before Euros.
-She declined to have the B sample tested after consulting with the Federation, because they assumed it would only be residual traces & that if they complied with the process it would still be possible to sort everything out & compete at Worlds.
- The federation then received a notification showing the amount that was found in the sample. It was such a large amount that it could only have entered the body in the day prior to testing. (The drug has a very short half life)
- Waiting for the official investigation, but she can't see how it could have been through food & drink, as all the athletes in Bratislava were eating together and she was the only one to test positive.

 

[VGThuy]

The Russian Skating Union says rival teams tricked its athletes into doping, and it’s got the lie-detector proof: https://meduza.io/en/news/2016/03/0...to-doping-and-it-s-got-the-lie-detector-proof

Now I'm imagining Zueva, Mezzadri, and Marie-France all working together to sabotage team Russia (with the exception of Vikita since they are Zueva's).

 

[Vagabond]

Now I'm imagining Zueva, Mezzadri, and Marie-France all working together to sabotage team Russia (with the exception of Vikita since they are Zueva's).

 

[kwanoverrated]

Such a shame after a great comeback season. I don't think they were medal contenders, but they could have surprised and snuck into the top 5.

 

[Katha]

Now I'm imagining Zueva, Mezzadri, and Marie-France all working together to sabotage team Russia (with the exception of Vikita since they are Zueva's).

If I'm understanding it correctly, it's the speed skating president claiming that three speed skaters were sabotaged by their own teammates. Though your scenario is cooler. Then there's the claims that all results were contaminated in the lab. Which is it?

This has gotten so bizarre and horrifying, I don't know what to think anymore. It feels like every five minutes another hammer drops. I'm scared to even click on the threads, yet I can't look away either.

 

[dinakt]

https://www.sport-express.ru/figure-skating/news/975516/
Averbukh chimes in. Quotes:
"... an athlete is preoccupied, and puts absolute trust in team doctors. Of course, there should have been "trust but double-check" policy, and Katya must now be "biting her elbows" (and expression for "having many regrets"-dinakt). Negligence, lack of professionalism led to this, put a stain on the image of the sport. "
...
"We should not be saying again that it is a plot against Russia. This is wrong. A grave mistake was committed- primarily, by the medical crew. We have to take responsibility for it"
...
"It is possible Katya felt tired, and doctor gave her the shot. And then she performed brilliantly, but not because of the drug. Figure skating does not have a drug that can teach how to skate and how to dance"

 

[marbri]

Averbukh is right that the drug can't teach her how to skate and how to dance. But it can help her get through the free program without gasping for breath. Can help her skate clean because her legs aren't so tired that she slips off that edge losing them a level or two etc...

 

[MsZem]

Averbukh is right that the drug can't teach her how to skate and how to dance. But it can help her get through the free program without gasping for breath. Can help her skate clean because her legs aren't so tired that she slips off that edge losing them a level or two etc...

This is the issue I have with the approach that anything performance enhancing is wrong. Leaving aside the many performance-enhancing things that are not banned - why is it bad for an athlete to compete in the best condition possible? Is the goal to see what skaters do when they are at their best, or to see them overcome difficulty and adversity? Because the latter makes for a nice narrative, but I never got why athletes should be made to suffer and why slower recovery is somehow a good thing.

Of course, so long as something is banned athletes should not be taking it, because that's an unfair advantage. I just question whether certain substances really should be banned. And I certainly don't fault anyone who took a substance while it was perfectly legal to do so.

 

[Vash01]

If I'm understanding it correctly, it's the speed skating president claiming that three speed skaters were sabotaged by their own teammates. Though your scenario is cooler. Then there's the claims that all results were contaminated in the lab. Which is it?

This has gotten so bizarre and horrifying, I don't know what to think anymore. It feels like every five minutes another hammer drops. I'm scared to even click on the threads, yet I can't look away either.

It's hard to tell if there was intentional sabotage, unless they have clear evidence. I am thinking that confusion due to the status of the drug could be a part of the problem, although the post by Sylvia seems to indicate the warning was quite clear. It's entirely possible that some athletes were extra careful and stopped taking Meldonium immediately, while some thought they could take it for sometime, just not close to Jan. 1st. It also sounds like this drug was used frequently in that part of the world until it was announced to be illegal. So it makes sense that mostly athletes in that part of the world were affected.

I see this more along the lines of mistakes, confusion, rather than cheating or sabotage, but what do I know?

 

[marbri]

This is the issue I have with the approach that anything performance enhancing is wrong. Leaving aside the many performance-enhancing things that are not banned - why is it bad for an athlete to compete in the best condition possible? Is the goal to see what skaters do when they are at their best, or to see them overcome difficulty and adversity? Because the latter makes for a nice narrative, but I never got why athletes should be made to suffer and why slower recovery is somehow a good thing.

Of course, so long as something is banned athletes should not be taking it, because that's an unfair advantage. I just question whether certain substances really should be banned. And I certainly don't fault anyone who took a substance while it was perfectly legal to do so.

Because I don't think the athlete who doesn't want to risk their health or beliefs by taking some manufactured, unnatural substance to give them "super human strength" should be disadvantaged.

If the human body can only withstand so much training then should we really be pumping them full of drugs so they can push through the pain. Is the pain maybe nature's way of saying "enough, rest now". Is this healthy?


eta....I don't think we will ever live in a world where drugs aren't a part of sport. Sad but when money and glory are being dangled there will always be someone ready and willing to pop a pill to get a bit of that.

 

[Meoima]

Meldonium can be used as a mask for other PEDs, someone said so. But I am not sure about this statement.

 

[MsZem]

Because I don't think the athlete who doesn't want to risk their health or beliefs by taking some manufactured, unnatural substance to give them "super human strength" should be disadvantaged.

I agree. This is why I think the criteria for banning substances should be potential risks. If these are minimal, I don't see an issue. If there are substantial risks, I agree that nobody should be taking whatever substance it is in order to compete. I don't think beliefs should be a consideration at all - what if someone believes that taking vitamins is wrong, should we honor that too? Or no physical therapy? As far as I'm concerned, the line needs to be drawn purely based on health considerations (short-term and long-term).

Also, there's quite a bit of ground to cover between super-human strength and quicker recovery. Bobrova hardly looks super-human.

 

[Xela M]

I agree. This is why I think the criteria for banning substances should be potential risks. If these are minimal, I don't see an issue. If there are substantial risks, I agree that nobody should be taking whatever substance it is in order to compete. I don't think beliefs should be a consideration at all - what if someone believes that taking vitamins is wrong, should we honor that too? Or no physical therapy? As far as I'm concerned, the line needs to be drawn purely based on health considerations (short-term and long-term).

Also, there's quite a bit of ground to cover between super-human strength and quicker recovery. Bobrova hardly looks super-human.

And judging by their results in recent years, this drug is not very good

If it was legal during the Sochi Olympics, why didn't it put them on the podium?

 

[VGThuy]

Their results have been pretty good this season, and they are Russian National champs and medaled at Worlds. Maybe one can argue they'd perform even worse without it. Though not sure how we can measure that just as lay people.

 

[love_skate2011]

seems the founder of meldonium says he will help disqualified athletes and may sue wada for banning it
he said in the future may see higher death rates in athletes because of banning such drug

the most juicy comment from him

WADA has blacklisted it as a prohibited formula, but nobody knows for how long it may stay in the human body. Nobody has ever conducted research into this matter yet," Kalvins said. "

http://tass.ru/en/sport/861269

 

[ballettmaus]

...
"It is possible Katya felt tired, and doctor gave her the shot. And then she performed brilliantly, but not because of the drug. Figure skating does not have a drug that can teach how to skate and how to dance"

If she felt tired before the drug and didn't feel tired afterwards and was able to skate "brilliantly" after the drug was administered then that, dear Mr Averbukh, is the very definition of performance enhancing...

 

[altai_rose]

If she felt tired before the drug and didn't feel tired afterwards and was able to skate "brilliantly" after the drug was administered then that, dear Mr Averbukh, is the very definition of performance enhancing...

Correlation does not imply causation.

 

[ballettmaus]

Correlation does not imply causation.

Right... Look, the Easter Bunny just hopped by. I'm sorry, but Averbukh himself says that she may have taken the (a) drug because she felt tired. If I take something in the hopes to not feel as tired afterwards then, as an elite athlete, I'm not doing that on a hunch. I know what'll help me feel less tired and that is then enhancing my performance and gives me an unfair unadvantage over those who don't have access to said drug or something similar.

And just to clarify, this has nothing to do with Bobrova herself. I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt since it's not unheard of that athletes were doped by doctors. This is simply about Averbukh's statement and the odd conlcusions he draws that a drug that you take for a specific purpose (in this case make you feel less fatiguied) doesn't have an influence on the performance.

 

[MsZem]

If she felt tired before the drug and didn't feel tired afterwards and was able to skate "brilliantly" after the drug was administered then that, dear Mr Averbukh, is the very definition of performance enhancing...

If she'd felt tired, had a couple of shots of espresso that energized her and then performed brilliantly, would the coffee be considered performance-enhancing?

I think the line between legitimate and illegitimate performance enhancing interventions can be very thin, and sometimes arbitrary.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Not to mention placebo effect.

 

[Carolla5501]

Actually caffeine can be and is used to enhance performance.

 

[MsZem]

Actually caffeine can be and is used to enhance performance.

My point exactly - or is anyone going to argue that coffee drinkers, too, are dope cheats?

 

[VGThuy]

Observing the motivations of people on the defense never fails to be interesting. I admit me being a Carolina fan and not a fan of prosecutions in general influenced how I looked at her case.

 

[MsZem]

Observing the motivations of people on the defense never fails to be interesting. I admit me being a Carolina fan and not a fan of prosecutions in general influenced how I looked at her case.

Just in case this was in reference to anything I wrote - my motivation is generally independent of who the accused athletes are, and more to do with my views on doping and anti-doping enforcement. I did promise in one of the Kostner threads that I would apply the same approach even if it's a skater I didn't like (though I don't have anything against Bobrova, really).

 

[Yehudi]

Actually caffeine can be and is used to enhance performance.

Alcohol too, for shooting events.

 

[VGThuy]

It looks like there are various issues going on. I'm just posting this so I can get my head on straight with what people are saying here.

One is whether any of the athletes' various stories hold water.

Relatedly, whether there was a concerted effort to disqualify certain athletes.

Also related, whether there is negligence on the part of prescribed doctors if the banned substance was not given out of malice.

Then, how liable are the athletes who trusted their physicians and believed whatever it was they were taking was above board.

Second issue is whether WADA has fair procedures in place when they change the banned substance list.

Third issue, the broader issue of PED and what is considered PED and what is not, and whether there is an overzealousness here.

Fourth issue, whether this is politically-motivated in any way.

Does this about cover it?

 

[MsZem]

Alcohol too, for shooting events.

This sounds... concerning

 

[AYS]

Actually caffeine can be and is used to enhance performance.

Caffeine is definitely on WADA's radar. It was previously on the list of banned substances years ago. It's not now, but it is part of their monitoring program to detect patterns of potential abuse (ie, if seen at very high levels). I heard a rumor recently that they were considering banning it again, which I guess is why it's being monitored.

It's still an NCAA banned substance, by the way, if higher than a certain level in the urine (so normal beverage drinking is ok but taking large amounts isn't).

 

[Yehudi]

This sounds... concerning

In all seriousness, I heard from someone who was friends with some of the top pentathletes in the nineties that they would have few drinks the night so they would be relaxed for the shooting event, which used to be the first event, but obviously they couldn't drink too much cause they had four other events. Many sedatives and beta blockers in general are banned for any shooting event.