Avanta Boot Labs Slam Karen Chen For Boot Problems

[Rob]

What does Charles Sinek have to do with anything? I haven't seen anything about him in this thread, so I'm not following.

Does he design the Avanta boots? I have no idea.

Oh, just saw the above. Is that the same Charles Sinek -- it says he was 51 at the time. Wiki says the skating Sinek is 49. ?????

 

[WildRose]

Someone over at the GS forum said this had appeared on Karen's website as recently as Feb 24:

AVANTA Boot Labs, thank you for kindly sponsoring me..
December 30, 2017 by gokarenchenskating
First, I’d like to say that if it were not for AVANTA Boot Labs, I would have quit skating 2 years ago. As many of you may know, I had a series of ill-fitting boots which damaged by feet, and, AVANTA Boot Labs came to the rescue and allowed my skating to continue.
Thank you very much!

AVANTA's reaction to Karen's most current boot complaint sounds very personal to me--i.e., we went to great lengths to help you and this is how you pay us back?!

Obviously not a wise way for the company to react but it sounds to me like someone there was very hurt by her comments.

Didn’t Karen say somewhere that she was getting new boots every month? If that’s the case, since AVANTA was sponsoring her and she wasn’t paying for them, they were doing an awfully lot of free work for her. I can see why they would be upset, especially when she posts a picture of a damaged older boot that they know was worked on by someone else. Their response was dreadful PR of course, but it sounds like this is a small operation that takes pride in their work and they were hurt by what she said. They should have just rescinded their sponsorship and kept quiet. An unfortunate situation for everyone.

 

[alchemy void]

http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2017...ra-sinek-reveling-in-being-first-time-parents

Forget the drugs, he looks like the American version of Dmitriev.

 

[vesperholly]

Does he design the Avanta boots? I have no idea.

Oh, just saw the above. Is that the same Charles Sinek -- it says he was 51 at the time. Wiki says the skating Sinek is 49. ?????

I did a bunch of poking around on Google and whitepages.com and Charles is listed as related to other people with Rainer as their last name, as well as related to Beata. I think it's him.

 

[VGThuy]

You guys better be quiet about all this malfeasance happening.

 

[Debbie S]

I don't know anything about Charles Sinek, but I imagine there is more than 1 person with that name. Re the Oly skate tech...USFS always brings a skate tech to the Olys and also has techs on duty at Nats and I imagine SA. The techs have their own businesses locally but quite a few techs out there are also affiliated with a boot company. They are chosen by USFS for their skate maintenance/sharpening expertise not their relationship with any boot co.

 

[Willin]

What she doesn’t say in the article is whether these were new boots she’d just broken in, or old boots whose life she was trying to extend because she didn’t want to change boots before the Olympics (which is what I read/heard somewhere; not sure if it’s true).

On her (private) FB Avanta replied to her status about her boot problems. That post was also quite inappropriate, but I guess they wanted to set the record straight right then and there since she has a lot of people from the skating community on her FB. Basically, they said that while she had a couple of newer (new?) pairs of boots they'd sent her recently (and I think they were in Korea), she chose to skate on an old, worn out pair of boots for the competition.

However, is that photo really her blade? The condition looks terrible. Is that typical for an elite skater?

This was the photo she posted of her skates the day of competition, so I'd assume that was her blade. The blades look fine; the stuff on the right side of the picture is the sole of the boot breaking apart (it looks more like it's breaking off the bottom of the skate altogether, but I can't say for sure).

It's normal for skaters to have their boots adjusted by a local skate pro.

I am well aware of that. However, it sounds like the work included modifications and such - not the normal heat molding/ankle punch-out/blade mounting that's usually done.
The most I've seen done without sending it back to the manufacturer was adding lunge pads. Based on the post, it sounds like Avanta thought they did a whole lot more to the skates than that.

 

[Skittl1321]

This was the photo she posted of her skates the day of competition, so I'd assume that was her blade. The blades look fine; the stuff on the right side of the picture is the sole of the boot breaking apart (it looks more like it's breaking off the bottom of the skate altogether, but I can't say for sure).

The blade looked rusty to me. Usually the bottom of a blade looks silver, not reddish-orange.

(Edit: I was looking at the photo wrong. I have 6 pairs of skates and couldn't figure this out! OMG.)

 

[Anita18]

They’re a small business so doubtful they’d have any professional PR staff. Mind you, I don’t think you need to be a genius to figure out this whole thing was really, really, dumb. It happens fairly frequently with small businesses though. Not everyone can handle social media accounts.

I was directed to someone at Avanta when I asked about local skate sharpeners. He introduced himself over email as a volunteer, which struck me as odd. I’m sure he’s a lovely person and does a fine job sharpening (haven’t visited yet), but what sort of business is Avanta if they don’t pay someone skilled for their time at the store???

 

[Aerobicidal]

After pondering this issue all morning, I'm thinking that the original Instagram post wasn't quite histrionic enough. It should have included accusations that Karen Chen sent the company 3500 hate messages that left Avanta's entire staff crying in a bathroom in Hayward, California.

 

[arakwafan2006]

Avanta is not really in the position to be this rude. They were Kleingbeil and Sasha Cohen was the only notable top level skater in their product. Another company bought them and this was bad.

 

[MsZem]

I see that after getting ratio'd on Instagram (I thought that only happened on Twitter!) Avanta has deleted all the comments, or maybe disabled them? The comments seem to have disappeared, either way.

 

[meggonzo]

The blade looked rusty to me. Usually the bottom of a blade looks silver, not reddish-orange.

I think that is the boot material, not the blade. I thought it was the blade at first too. I really can't tell what is even going on in the photo.

 

[Sylvia]

I only know Will from a years ago at Klingbeil; Will was, and I hope still is, a very nice guy. Soft-spoken, polite and very careful about his work. I have to think that Avanta has turned themselves upside down to get it right for her only to have their work compromised by various other techs and then feel blamed for her continuing complaints about her boots. The boots were likely made from fine materials specifically for her (heck my Klingbeils were made for me) and fitted, fitted and refitted. Doesn't mean problems don't occur, they do. But I think they've had it with her and there may be good reason for that. I don't know but I wouldn't assume Avanta is automatically wrong - I think it would take a lot for Will Murillo to complain in public. Granted, it could have been much more measured in tone.

Thanks for sharing your anecdote, @Willowway. Murillo is quoted/mentioned/pictured in this February 2014 feature article titled "The Last Skate Atelier: The near-death and rebirth of Klingbeil, figure skating’s sacred footwear": http://grantland.com/features/the-last-skate-atelier/

What had made Klingbeil famous were company founder Bill Klingbeil, his son Don, and veteran skate tech Will Murillo’s precise custom fittings. Bill had perfected his technique over 60 years, Don had begun making skates at the age of 12, and Murillo, whom Don describes as like a son to him, started at Klingbeil Shoe Labs as a 14-year-old in 1994. He was newly immigrated to Queens from the Bay Islands, and to get the job sweeping floors he pretended to be 16. Little by little, the Klingbeils showed him how to make a boot by hand, and the three became so close that Klingbeil eventually assisted Murillo with his tuition at NYU, where he studied linguistic anthropology. Yet Murillo remained dedicated to the craft of skate-making. Asked why, he joked, “I don’t know if it’s the glue or the fact that I truly love what I do.”
Murillo even began a brief skating career of his own to better understand the needs of a figure skater. “There was a point in my life when I said, ‘Well, if I’m gonna make this my living, I better use the product that I built,’” he explained. “I just decided to skate because if I was using the skates, I need to know how you feel in them. Because how can I be selling a product when I don’t know anything about it?”

... And for now, figure skaters have not yet completely lost one of the last skate ateliers still dedicated to the craft of handmade skates, thanks largely to Murillo, who has been retained by the Adoni Group.
These days, Murillo can often be seen examining the mold of a child’s foot in the new Adoni factory. By the time a skater reaches the ranks of elite competition, if she ever does, Murillo has probably paced a mile around a workshop, analyzing her boots. “He’s a very skillful young man and really cares about the customers and the work,” Don Klingbeil said. “He’s like me.”

 

[arakwafan2006]

Edea, Don Jackson and Harlick have indirectly had skaters basically say their boots had problems. Never did they do this. People already weren’t buying those boots that don’t crease. This was horrible.

 

[Willin]

@meggonzo @Skittl1321 The blade is the bluish/white stuff to the left of the "Pray for me." Directly to the right of "Pray for me" is the sole of the boot. The reddish/brown stuff appears to be where the sole connected to the white part of the boot or another layer of the sole. The white part on the right of the picture is the boot itself.

To me the blades look immaculate.

 

[personwhoishere]

Avanta is not really in the position to be this rude. They were Kleingbeil and Sasha Cohen was the only notable top level skater in their product. Another company bought them and this was bad.

For what it's worth, the Hughes sisters also skated in Klingbeils.

 

[Deleted member 53443]

"after being marginalized, ridiculed, besmirched, and violated" lol wtf are they 13 years old?

 

[Ohyes]

The brands response is so dramatic and unneeded its not like Karen ever mentioned their brand anyways. Even if she did they shouldn't have responded in such a snarky, rude, catty and dramatic manner.

 

[Debbie S]

Avanta is not really in the position to be this rude. They were Kleingbeil and Sasha Cohen was the only notable top level skater in their product. Another company bought them and this was bad.

Actually, in Klingbeil's heyday, a lot of elite skaters were in their boots, including Sasha and Sarah and Emily Hughes. I think Edea cut into their business a lot, and the advent of heat molding, which allowed skaters to get a somewhat custom fit from a stock boot. Klingbeil nearly went out of business in early 2012, lots of skaters then placed orders and sent support via social media, so Klingbeil stayed open, but was bought out by a shoe company, which moved them into Manhattan (from Queens) and that's when a lot of customer service problems started. From what I've heard, Don and others from Klingbeil didn't have a lot of say in what went on. Then a few years ago, they cut ties (varying stories) with the company that bought them and joined Avanta, which was a new co at the time, and Avanta boots essentially became what Klingbeil boots had been, same bootmaker, but different technology (I heard the co that bought Klingbeil threw out the lasting machine b/c they said it was old technology).

At the time I got fitted for Avanta boots in October 2015 (and then got laid off several months later so there went the money), Avanta had been through some org problems, namely reports of delays and other customer complaints on their FB page. I gently inquired about their process and the woman who was with Will and Don (at SA Regionals) identified herself as the office manager, said she was new and that the co hadn't had an office manager for a year but she was there and things were much more organized. Not sure what has gone on since then....sounds like Don has left so not sure who is running things. They definitely don't have a PR or marketing person on staff, most small businesses can't afford that.

 

[hanca]

Didn’t Karen say somewhere that she was getting new boots every month? If that’s the case, since AVANTA was sponsoring her and she wasn’t paying for them, they were doing an awfully lot of free work for her. I can see why they would be upset, especially when she posts a picture of a damaged older boot that they know was worked on by someone else. Their response was dreadful PR of course, but it sounds like this is a small operation that takes pride in their work and they were hurt by what she said. They should have just rescinded their sponsorship and kept quiet. An unfortunate situation for everyone.

I would imagine that when someone is sponsored, they negotiated the exact details. For example, how many pairs of boots she will get. If she really feels she needs a pair of boots per month, she would have to mention it to them, and it was up to them to accept ot or decide that she is not worth sponsoring (not worth paying ten or twelve boots per year). If they decided that she is worth it (and it seems they did), it is not an excuse to give her boots that don’t fit. If they are providing custom made boots, the boots should fit. There is no excuse to think that she requires 10-12 boots whereas other skaters wanted only 1-2 pairs, so they don’t have to worry about them fitting well. If they decided that they want her, then no matter how many pairs of boots they gave her, they have to make sure that the boots actually fit. As a someone who ordered custome made boots, made the feet impressions into that foam and then the boots felt too small, it can emphasise is her problems. If you pay extra to have custom made boots, you expect them to fit! So if she had boots problems and had custom made boots, the company was at fault! It was up to them to fix it, and it doesn’t matter if she attended one or ten appointments. If they didn’t fix it, the number of appointments is now t really relevant.

 

[meggonzo]

@meggonzo @Skittl1321 The blade is the bluish/white stuff to the left of the "Pray for me." Directly to the right of "Pray for me" is the sole of the boot. The reddish/brown stuff appears to be where the sole connected to the white part of the boot or another layer of the sole. The white part on the right of the picture is the boot itself.

To me the blades look immaculate.

Thanks, it's confusing because I thought the boot was in the top left of the picture.

 

[vesperholly]

Blades look OK to me too.

Does Avanta do those black carbon soles on their boots? From what I can find, they don't. Jackson does those (because they couldn't put them on my EE width customs ), not sure about other brands.

It looks almost like someone tried to re-sole the boot.

 

[Carolla5501]

Rule one of good customer service... don't blame the customer. Even if they were wrong all you do is look petty.

And they violated it. Bad move!

I bet most people, like me, had no idea what she was skating in, but now we do and it's not a good impression.

I think back to the Jackson reps working all night on Mirai's skates at Nationals and think "there's a good way to handle something and a bad way" Acting like a 5 year old is not the "good way"

And honestly, I am not impressed that they were sending her boots monthly To me that means "our product really isn't very good"

 

[rvi5]

@meggonzo @Skittl1321 The blade is the bluish/white stuff to the left of the "Pray for me." Directly to the right of "Pray for me" is the sole of the boot. The reddish/brown stuff appears to be where the sole connected to the white part of the boot or another layer of the sole. The white part on the right of the picture is the boot itself.

To me the blades look immaculate.

Yes, the picture depicts the boot sole has separated from the bottom of the boot. The reddish/brown stuff is traces of the glue that once held the sole to the boot. The edges of the grey sole at the separation points, appears frayed and curled away.

Assuming for a moment, the company is correct about alterations, what could they have seen in this picture? Wrong colour glue indicating the sole was re-glued? Was the curled frayed sole edges an indication someone had once attempted to pry loose and remove the sole, re-gluing it incorrectly? Of course, the frayed curling could be due to skidding on the ice.



ETA:

It looks almost like someone tried to re-sole the boot.

I was just wondering the same thing.

 

[Erin]

Thanks, it's confusing because I thought the boot was in the top left of the picture.

Me too. I'm glad I wasn't the only one confused by that picture.

 

[SNG]

This is what happened:

For 2 years Avanta has been fitting Karen Chen with the world’s most technologically advanced figure skating boots. Every pair of Avanta boots that were built were identical and tested by Karen satisfaction. The pictures of Karen’s Olympic boot posted shows a misrepresentation of the truth. After Avanta inspected the two pairs of Olympic boots they noticed that the blade mounting, blade adjustment and other miscellaneous work done to the skates were done incorrectly by a third party.

Reasons for the occurred problem was due to the following:

1. The blade mounted by the 3rd party was out of alignment.
2. The blades were mounted with incorrect screws (with inadequate threading and too short to reach and grab onto the leather layer of the midsoles).
3. The blades were also attached via temporary mounting - with only 4 screws (2 at the heel plate, and 2 at the sole plate of the blade). Temporary mounting is only done during the initial mounting and try-outs of the blades, but, should be upgraded to permanent mounting once the blade balance is perfected and the skates are ready for training and competitions.

With the incorrect mounting, Karen felt out of balance. Instead of adjusting the blades and finding the balance, the third party tried to correct Karen’s balance with self-made wedges that were placed outside of her boots. Both, the wedge underneath the insole and underneath the blade was not indicated, and they also contributed to the damage of the boots.

It is unfortunate that neither Karen nor her coach or her mom took the time to make sure Karen gets her blades permanently and adequately mounted prior to her departure to the Olympics. Karen’s family have said it was impossible to have access to Avanta before Karen’s competitions.

 

[BlueRidge]

@SNG if you have some contact with Avanta, please let them know that personally attacking an Olympic athlete is not acceptable and nothing they or anyone says now will undo the damage they have done by their rash choice to post as they did.

 

[SNG]

Didn’t Karen say somewhere that she was getting new boots every month? If that’s the case, since AVANTA was sponsoring her and she wasn’t paying for them, they were doing an awfully lot of free work for her. I can see why they would be upset, especially when she posts a picture of a damaged older boot that they know was worked on by someone else. Their response was dreadful PR of course, but it sounds like this is a small operation that takes pride in their work and they were hurt by what she said. They should have just rescinded their sponsorship and kept quiet. An unfortunate situation for everyone.

Karen was supplied a new pair of Avanta boots every 3 months. For the Olympics, Karen was supplied Olympic boots + 2 backup pairs. Avanta spent countless of hours (Unpaid) with Karen, adjust the boots to her satisfaction. The Olympic boots had temporary screw mounts on. She was told to come back to the shop to have her permanent mount to be place. She did not feel that she needed to go back to the shop to have them mounted, instead, she went to a third party.

Avanta stands behind every boot and customer, for someone who was sponsored to blame the boots was totally uncalled for. Avanta asked Karen to tell the truth, that the damage done to her boots was from a THIRD party.

 

[SNG]

@SNG if you have some contact with Avanta, please let them know that personally attacking an Olympic athlete is not acceptable and nothing they or anyone says now will undo the damage they have done by their rash choice to post as they did.

I agree, I already talked with the owner and it's in the process of being removed.