Are we spending enough time to mentally prepare our athletes?

[brennele]

I'm Asian and my relatives are Buddhists. Where do I sign up for this mystical mind mastery training?

This thread reads like some Western fetishization of Eastern culture.

Also:




Maybe you should apply to be part of Nathan's coaching team.

eternity - you don't sign up for "mind control" That is not what we are speaking about. We are speaking about the concept of detachment from the outcome. I don't know whether YOU need any such training but Nathan surely does. FYI, ALL cultures have good ideas - there is nothing wrong with adopting an idea practiced in a different culture from your own if that concept serves you well. Perhaps if you were less sarcastic and snide you might realize that many different cultures have something to offer people. Persons are free to pick and choose what is useful to them. Also FYI, if I were on Nathan'a coaching team - which I have no desire to do - I would work with him on this very concept and he might just be holding the gold right now.

 

[Sylvia]

Never mind.

 

[brennele]

First of all, I'm eyerolling at you not knowing Hanyu's name. This means you probably just started watching skating at these Olympics. Hate to break it to you, but there was a low chance Chen would've placed 1st or 2nd on the podium, even if he skated a clean short, despite how NBC tries to spin it.

Secondly, what are you talking about re: Hanyu? Hanyu has repeatedly said he believed he would win the gold, he was confident he would win the gold, he did a lot of visualization exercises involving him winning the gold, it was gold or nothing for him, that if he skated poorly it would "follow" him for the rest of his life. So your theory of him abiding by detachment philosophy goes right out the widow.

Also, he did balancing and maneuvering exercises because his ankle was still injured.

 

[brennele]

eternity godness - yet another reply for you. As for how long I have been watching FS - likely way longer than since you were born. I think I began watching it sometime in the early 60s - well over 50 years ago; I am almost 68 now. I also have quite a bit of experience in teaching people how to overcome performance anxiety.........with a fair amount of success I might add. I have seen lots of skaters come and go and done a whole lot of reading about it. I have no interest in pursing a conversation with you given your smart-ass tone, as evidenced in your posts. Since you obviously know it all, there is no point to discussing anything with you. Detachment is one of many tools which can be practiced to help with "the jitters" - Nathan got a case of it; Hanyu did not and their respective performance was evidence of that fact. When you have had as much experience as I have in working with people with anxiety, that is when you tell me how it is done.

 

[becca]

eternity godness - yet another reply for you. As for how long I have been watching FS - likely way longer than since you were born. I think I began watching it sometime in the early 60s - well over 50 years ago; I am almost 68 now. I also have quite a bit of experience in teaching people how to overcome performance anxiety.........with a fair amount of success I might add. I have seen lots of skaters come and go and done a whole lot of reading about it. I have no interest in pursing a conversation with you given your smart-ass tone, as evidenced in your posts. Since you obviously know it all, there is no point to discussing anything with you. Detachment is one of many tools which can be practiced to help with "the jitters" - Nathan got a case of it; Hanyu did not and their respective performance was evidence of that fact. When you have had as much experience as I have in working with people with anxiety, that is when you tell me how it is done.

But some of it with Hanyu may be experience. He won gold four years ago but his free program was terrible (luck). He has gotten better at performing well as he got use to handling pressure. I think the injury too likely forced detachment. Hanyu got better with experience

You learn how to compete at those levels handle this pressure.

I know Alina won but Alina trains every day with the Dominant world champion and in someways the competition is harder at Russian Nationals. When you have that type of depth that exists in Russia only stupendous competitors survive.

 

[Simone411]

@brennele, here's an article that I'd like to share with you. I think you might be interested in it.

From blade-sharpening to ballet. The cost of being an Olympic Figure Skater

Figure skating when done right looks effortless at the Winter Olympics — but those flawless performances take hours of extreme physical labor on and off the ice and thousands of dollars spent on skates, coaching and outfits.

Training with the intention of competing can cost skaters and their families between $10,000 to $20,000, if not more. The most expensive part of training: Coaching. Serious skaters need around five hours a week of coaching, at $100 to $160 an hour, as well as separate coaching from a choreographer and off-ice trainers for ballet or stretching.

Those non-skating sessions or classes can cost just as much as a main coach, said Rosie Tovi, a former professional figure skater for the U.S.A. International Figure Skating Team. “You watch the Olympics and it looks so lyrical and beautiful, but people don’t realize the athleticism involved,” she said. “You have to look like a ballerina doing it and that takes time. The amount of time is really intense.”

The kind of training you're talking about already exists in the USA and some of it is very expensive. The only way some of these figure skaters can afford it is through sponsorship and donations made from individuals to help with the cost of everything from skating boots to coaches. Some individuals also make donations through foundations and organizations like the USFSA in which there is "Friends of Figure Skating".

The reality of what you've suggested does already occur here in the USA, and the only way some of the figure skaters can afford such training is from what I just mentioned.

 

[overedge]

Since you obviously know it all there is no point to discussing anything with you

Pot, kettle, black.

 

[brennele]

Simone411,
You bring up an excellent point and that is the costs involved in becoming a FS champion. It is an extremely expensive sport, at least the way we have constructed it here in the US. I could be wrong but I think in some other countries, talented skaters who work hard get some state funded support to help with their training. Again, I could be wrong. Way back when during the 60s, for sure, such was the case. Whether it still is so, I simply don't know.

There is no easy way to deal with the financial pressures of FS in the US. With all of the financial deficits, national debt, etc we have and the political issues which surround them, we can't exactly have state-sponsored support of sports. Can you just imagine the public outcry it would generate if we had state-sponsored programs to support athletes in the various Olympic sports. If other countries are doing so, I wonder how they handle it from a political perspective. The best we might be able to do, in this regard, is scholarships of one sort or another. Rule changes concerning professional vs amateur participation helped also. The bottom line is that it costs one heck of a lot of money to get any sort of education and training in anything these days. People come out of school these days with student loan debts that parallel what they would pay for a mortgage on a house.

If you say that training in mental aspects of sports performance is available but enormously expensive, I am sure you are correct. It could well be and if so, it is sad, indeed. I know for sure that Brian Orser includes this sort of preparation in his coaching programs and I do not know what he charges for it. It is probably part of his entire package....which, no doubt, is very pricey. This brings us full circle back to the point of my whole post. No one and certainly not I was suggesting that Chen run off to a Buddhist monastery and become a detachment-practicing monk. I raise the question of whether he had received ANY training in this area. Based on his performance, I would have to say no. For sure, Orser's students do. There are nerves and there nerves - OK that's fine - BUT what we witnessed in Chen's case in the SP, and to a lesser extent in the team event, was a complete meltdown. That was far more than just being nervous or having anxiety before a performance. A little work in this aspect of his training might have gone a long way in Chen's case. Based on what we witnessed, I'd say he got absolutely no training at all in this aspect of sports performance. I'd also say that, given Orser is Hanyu's coach, Hanyu got quite a bit of it. Two enormously talented men, similar age, similar skills, similar work ethic - different coaching styles. Look at the difference in where they ended up.

 

[becca]

Simone411,
You bring up an excellent point and that is the costs involved in becoming a FS champion. It is an extremely expensive sport, at least the way we have constructed it here in the US. I could be wrong but I think in some other countries, talented skaters who work hard get some state funded support to help with their training. Again, I could be wrong. Way back when during the 60s, for sure, such was the case. Whether it still is so, I simply don't know.

There is no easy way to deal with the financial pressures of FS in the US. With all of the financial deficits, national debt, etc we have and the political issues which surround them, we can't exactly have state-sponsored support of sports. Can you just imagine the public outcry it would generate if we had state-sponsored programs to support athletes in the various Olympic sports. If other countries are doing so, I wonder how they handle it from a political perspective. The best we might be able to do, in this regard, is scholarships of one sort or another. Rule changes concerning professional vs amateur participation helped also. The bottom line is that it costs one heck of a lot of money to get any sort of education and training in anything these days. People come out of school these days with student loan debts that parallel what they would pay for a mortgage on a house.

If you say that training in mental aspects of sports performance is available but enormously expensive, I am sure you are correct. It could well be and if so, it is sad, indeed. I know for sure that Brian Orser includes this sort of preparation in his coaching programs and I do not know what he charges for it. It is probably part of his entire package....which, no doubt, is very pricey. This brings us full circle back to the point of my whole post. No one and certainly not I was suggesting that Chen run off to a Buddhist monastery and become a detachment-practicing monk. I raise the question of whether he had received ANY training in this area. Based on his performance, I would have to say no. For sure, Orser's students do. There are nerves and there nerves - OK that's fine - BUT what we witnessed in Chen's case in the SP, and to a lesser extent in the team event, was a complete meltdown. That was far more than just being nervous or having anxiety before a performance. A little work in this aspect of his training might have gone a long way in Chen's case. Based on what we witnessed, I'd say he got absolutely no training at all in this aspect of sports performance. I'd also say that, given Orser is Hanyu's coach, Hanyu got quite a bit of it. Two enormously talented men, similar age, similar skills, similar work ethic - different coaching styles. Look at the difference in where they ended up.

Orser is Dalemans coach too. Hanyu has a ton more experience at this level.

 

[overedge]

Anyone who competes at Chen's level has mental training as part of their preparation. Your armchair diagnosis is woefully short on facts. And for someone who was claiming a few posts earlier not to recognize Hanyu's name, you suddenly seem to know a lot about how he trains.

 

[brennele]

becca, you also bring up great points in your posts. I agree with you that Christianity has some elements of detachment in their philosophy but it is not emphasized as such. It is also a problem for persons like me, an agnostic/atheist type of individual, who has not bought into the concept of God, per se. What you say does work but only for those people who can fully accept the notion of a God running the universe. What I have in mind is more general and less religious, per se, but I fully agree with your comments. Christianity is very big on the whole "thy will be done" and this notion can be very helpful in the context you cite. Great examples, you have offered.

I think Daleman is absolutely gorgeous. I loved her choreography, choice of music, program, etc but she also fell apart at the 2018 Olympics. She has all the right stuff but she just can't make it work. Her beauty is outstanding - perhaps that will help her in the pro-realm if she chooses to pursue that course. I just don't see her making it to the podium in 2022 given the current skating milieu but I can see her being enormously successful in the more commercial aspects of the sport if such is of interest to her. I loved her routine to Rhapsody in Blue but the whole thing just did not work for her in 2018. I don't see it working in 2022 either but she may want to try - she is only 20. I also really don't think that Daleman had a meltdown, per se. I think hers was more an issue of inconsistency in performance. My take on Chen is a bit different. Here we are talking solid gold potential but he absolutely DID melt down under pressure. The problem with Chen is not an issue of inconsistency, nor is it a lack of skill nor any lack of work ethic. He lacked training in the proper mental preparation for this level of performance. He is very redeemable. I think Chen absolutely CAN make it to the podium and probably at the very top of it but he has a lot of work to do so as to fix this problem

 

[brennele]

over edge, did someone give you hostility pills this morning? Here is a little hint for you - it is something called "Google" - ever hear about it? Could have fooled me. Try it out, someday. It is amazing what you can pick up in just a few minutes.

Less "crying in the bathroom at PyeongChang" might do you a world of good. Out of curiosity, what are you crying about, anyway? Other than the heartbreak of Chen's meltdown, what was so absolutely terrible about PyeongChang? I though the whole thing was overall quite good............what is your problem with it? Are you one of these people who feels that the US must win every single year or else you are miserable? Other countries have lots of talent also and they deserve to win sometimes, as well. It simply was not our year for FS - big deal. We can celebrate the success of other wonderful people in the world, like Hanyu. What he did was earth shattering and it has not been done for 66 some years. That is a HUGELY big deal and something worth being joyful about. It is not just all about us or you, for that matter. So again, what are you crying about?

 

[Mayra]

Nathan had a bad SP at the Olympics. It happens. No skater has a perfect program every single time they compete, just like no athlete in any other sport has a perfect game or a win every time they compete. Nathan having a bad skate at the Olympics is not a sign that his entire coaching team has been negligent or wrong throughout his entire career.

From the Rafael interview Sylvia posted, it sounds like the Dalai Lama and Jesus could have skated alongside Chen and the outcome still would have been the same.

 

[overedge]

@brennele if you're so skilled in using Google maybe you could look up Gabby Daleman's competitive record - last time I checked she was the world bronze medallist. Concluding that she "doesn't have it" on the basis of one bad competition is ridiculous.

 

[Simone411]

Well, I wouldn't quite say that the US hasn't had some of the best skaters in the World. If you look back at the record for Olympic Gold Medalists, Silver Medalist and Bronze Medalists, you'll find that we have our share of them. Also look at the record for World Gold Medalist, Silver Medalists and Bronze Medalists. The USA has quite a history of some of the finest figure skaters out there.

And one of my all-time favorites is of course the Kween. Of course, that's just me. And I truly don't believe there will be another Michelle Kwan in my lifetime. She is a legend because of being a five-time Worlds Gold Medalist among her contributions and true sportsmanship as a Figure Skater.

I, myself, don't exactly see a problem with USA Figure Skaters. There are more Figure Skaters around the world that have won Olympic Gold, Silver and Bronze just as there are other Figure Skaters around the world that have Worlds Gold, Silver and Bronze. It actually evens things out a bit between all the Figure Skaters that have won Gold, Silver and Bronze.

No, I don't see a problem with our US skaters other than what I mentioned in my earlier post which is about the cost and how expensive it is for figure skaters and their families.

 

[ChiquitaBanana]

I am a bit sad you didn’t reply to my comment about Hanyu. Go read it back, I am eager to read your take on it.

 

[ChiquitaBanana]

Never mind.

When @Sylvia says so, we’ve come far with with this discussion! It tells it all!

 

[brennele]

"Gosh, you are intense, aren’t you? -
hANnyu has been training for a long time in Canada and was considered a head case beforehands. Orser has developped his own mental training program and I doubt it comes from the martial arts entirely. Your whole theory fails right here.


Chiquita, OK, my apologies. I did not mean to ignore you. Actually what you say supports my theory. Here is how. Orser, as you say, developed his own theory - or so you tell me, I will take your word for it - and it INCLUDES mental training. No one said that the mental training I wanted for Chen must absolutely be detachment theory or any other kind of theory. Detachment is one form of training and it is the one I particularly like - primarily because it works so well for me and for other people with whom I have worked. I also like visualization which is apparently something Orser is big on. I have no idea what Orser uses - and I don't feel like buying his tape to try it out - BUT the point is that he does use something and the fact that he does - in my opinion - helps (in a very big way) with the success of his trainees. My feeling is that Chen did not get enough of such training else we would not see a MAJOR meltdown the way we did when he skated at the Olympics. As for what Brian uses, my guess is that he picks and chooses from a variety of schools of thought and tailors it to meet his purposes i.e. that which best serves his athletes. I do not see how you feel my theory falls apart when my original contention is that Chen needs more mental discipline training and then you go on to tell me that the person who won the gold GOT his very sort of training which I want for Chen. Are you not making my point? It does not have to come from martial arts or Buddhist detachment or creative visualization BUT it has to come from somewhere meaning a competitor needs it. Again, I personally like detachment theory because has brought me so much success in life. It is not the only way, by a long shot and I am certainly not a Buddhist. That does not mean I cannot borrow a few cards from their deck and apply it to my own life or teach it to others. Perhaps I am missing your point. Explain what you are trying to say, again, to me.

 

[jiejie]

I hope Nathan Chen reviews this thread when he needs a good belly laugh.

 

[brennele]

Overtheedge, perhaps I have better skills in Google than you do in reading my posts. You do not have to sell me on Daleman. How about reading what I wrote about her. I absolutely love her and her skating. I think she is drop-dead gorgeous, talented and great in every way BUT, that being said, I do not think she is of the caliber to beat the likes of the two Russian ladies. If these two do not compete in 2022 the Russians will pump out several more just like them. Daleman simply is not in that league which is not to say she is not fantastic in her own right. If Daleman enjoys competitive skating and she has the financial means to continue, I would be the last person to tell her to quit. I do not see an Olympic gold medal in her future and I would absolutely love to be proven wrong on this count. My own preference would be for Daleman to turn her outstanding beauty and enormous talent into some skating-related pursuit which will bring her millions. She could absolutely do that. If she wants to continue competitive figure skating to 2022 I would support her decision 100%. I simply would not advise her in that direction. Again, I ask you - what exactly is it which has brought you into the bathroom to cry at PyeongChang.

 

[brennele]

jiejie, yeah I hope he reads it, too, and you can be sure he will not be belly-laughing. Nathan is a smart man besides being an enormously talented skater. Smart men to not dismiss out of hand any possible way to improve their performance and neither will he. He would consider the content carefully and look to any possible avenue to improve. That is what intelligent men do. By the way, as long as we are on the subject of men, are you a male or a female. I can't tell from your avatar although if I had to make a guess based on your writing style, I am going to vote male. I could absolutely be wrong.

 

[ChiquitaBanana]

"Gosh, you are intense, aren’t you? -
hANnyu has been training for a long time in Canada and was considered a head case beforehands. Orser has developped his own mental training program and I doubt it comes from the martial arts entirely. Your whole theory fails right here.


Chiquita, OK, my apologies. I did not mean to ignore you. Actually what you say supports my theory. Here is how. Orser, as you say, developed his own theory - or so you tell me, I will take your word for it - and it INCLUDES mental training. No one said that the mental training I wanted for Chen must absolutely be detachment theory or any other kind of theory. Detachment is one form of training and it is the one I particularly like - primarily because it works so well for me and for other people with whom I have worked. I also like visualization which is apparently something Orser is big on. I have no idea what Orser uses - and I don't feel like buying his tape to try it out - BUT the point is that he does use something and the fact that he does - in my opinion - helps (in a very big way) with the success of his trainees. My feeling is that Chen did not get enough of such training else we would not see a MAJOR meltdown the way we did when he skated at the Olympics. As for what Brian uses, my guess is that he picks and chooses from a variety of schools of thought and tailors it to meet his purposes i.e. that which best serves his athletes. I do not see how you feel my theory falls apart when my original contention is that Chen needs more mental discipline training and then you go on to tell me that the person who won the gold GOT his very sort of training which I want for Chen. Are you not making my point? It does not have to come from martial arts or Buddhist detachment or creative visualization BUT it has to come from somewhere meaning a competitor needs it. Again, I personally like detachment theory because has brought me so much success in life. It is not the only way, by a long shot and I am certainly not a Buddhist. That does not mean I cannot borrow a few cards from their deck and apply it to my own life or teach it to others. Perhaps I am missing your point. Explain what you are trying to say, again, to me.

You get lost in your own sentences. You were first talking about Japanese skaters dealing perfectly with pressure because of their background in martial arts then Buddhism. I truly don't care about Nathan Chen for the rest of this discussion though it seems you dearly wants to become his mental consultant.

As for your comments on Daleman, it shows you know nothing, Jon Snow!

 

[brennele]

I absolutely do NOT want to become Chen's mental consultant. I prefer my own occupation which is a medical primary care provider (where I have treated HUGE numbers of patients who come to me for help with anxiety problems) BUT I do also want to see Chen win the gold. So what is your take on Daleman? Where am I wrong? You feel she is a contender for the OG? OK I am listening. Let's hear what you have to say? In fact, just before you posted, I saw a commercial made by Ashley Wagner advertising some vehicle. I was thinking that a beautiful and talented woman like Daleman could make these types of commercials and make a fortune doing so. She could do so many other skating-related things, not just commercials. OK, so let's hear it, Big Guy; where am I wrong about Daleman?

 

[overedge]

@brennele for someone who allegedly treats patients with anxiety, you sure have a disrespectful and insulting way of conducting a "discussion". I hope you speak more professionally to your patients than you do to the posters in this thread.

Or you could be just making sh*t up, which, the more you post, seems to be the more likely case.

 

[brennele]

Obviously so, overedge, or else I would not have any patients. As for being disrespectful, I react in kind which is why you and I are clashing. Go back over the thread and see wherein the hostility between us started. If you were a patient, I would let you slide but you are but a fellow poster so I don't see any reason to do so. If you want to play nice, that is perfectly fine with me, as well. Either way works for me. I am curious as to who you are in all of this. Are you a skater? Are you a spectator? Are you a fan? What is the deal? I am still waiting to hear from you as to why you were crying in the bathroom in PyeongChang? Were you there? What is the deal?

 

[MAXSwagg]

Simone411,
You bring up an excellent point and that is the costs involved in becoming a FS champion. It is an extremely expensive sport, at least the way we have constructed it here in the US. I could be wrong but I think in some other countries, talented skaters who work hard get some state funded support to help with their training. Again, I could be wrong. Way back when during the 60s, for sure, such was the case. Whether it still is so, I simply don't know.

There is no easy way to deal with the financial pressures of FS in the US. With all of the financial deficits, national debt, etc we have and the political issues which surround them, we can't exactly have state-sponsored support of sports. Can you just imagine the public outcry it would generate if we had state-sponsored programs to support athletes in the various Olympic sports. If other countries are doing so, I wonder how they handle it from a political perspective. The best we might be able to do, in this regard, is scholarships of one sort or another. Rule changes concerning professional vs amateur participation helped also. The bottom line is that it costs one heck of a lot of money to get any sort of education and training in anything these days. People come out of school these days with student loan debts that parallel what they would pay for a mortgage on a house.

If you say that training in mental aspects of sports performance is available but enormously expensive, I am sure you are correct. It could well be and if so, it is sad, indeed. I know for sure that Brian Orser includes this sort of preparation in his coaching programs and I do not know what he charges for it. It is probably part of his entire package....which, no doubt, is very pricey. This brings us full circle back to the point of my whole post. No one and certainly not I was suggesting that Chen run off to a Buddhist monastery and become a detachment-practicing monk. I raise the question of whether he had received ANY training in this area. Based on his performance, I would have to say no. For sure, Orser's students do. There are nerves and there nerves - OK that's fine - BUT what we witnessed in Chen's case in the SP, and to a lesser extent in the team event, was a complete meltdown. That was far more than just being nervous or having anxiety before a performance. A little work in this aspect of his training might have gone a long way in Chen's case. Based on what we witnessed, I'd say he got absolutely no training at all in this aspect of sports performance. I'd also say that, given Orser is Hanyu's coach, Hanyu got quite a bit of it. Two enormously talented men, similar age, similar skills, similar work ethic - different coaching styles. Look at the difference in where they ended up.

What the... No. Not similar skills. I'm sorry. Not even similar age. The "mental" issue is probably due to the consistent changing of program content, which both Nathan and Raf bragged about. If they did, the programs would inherently become better because there would be the potential for, you know, transitions, of which are nonexistent currently. So they're both to blame, really. And the mom adds a whole other dimension...

 

[brennele]

Simone, You don't feel that 18/19 and 23 are similar ages? Really? How so? Also, they don't have similar skills? Could you explain more, please. I am far from an expert on skating skills but it seems to me that both of these men are very accomplished and can perform much of the same elements - often with near perfection. Hanyu seems to have a bit more fluidity and elegance to what he does whereas Nathan seems to have the edge in sheer power but it looks to my untrained eye that they both can do all of the difficult elements with ease. Can you tell me how my perceptions about their skills are wrong, please. I would like to learn more about this topic. For the record, I happen to like Hanyu's style better but that is just me. I also like his overall performance better but I am no expert, for sure. The man's performance in the SP blew me away......and then there was the whole raining down of Winnie the Pooh bears.

I am totally at a loss how anyone cannot see where Chen got "psyched out" at these Olympics meaning his "nerves" got the best of him. Did you all watch the same SP as I did? It was an absolute disaster. What do folks think happened to him? Do they think he slipped on sequins which fell onto the ice? How can anybody have an issue with my view that this man needs more training to control his mental status as it applies to competitive performance? Now what is this deal about his Mom? I heard this before. Exactly what is his mom doing which is interfering with his success?

 

[Fairuza]

18 and 23 is quite an age difference for figure skating. Skating career is not long - Yuzuru is treated like a veteran now, Nathan is still a youngster.
And yeah, in skating skills, transitions, jump and spin quality Hanyu is far ahead, I’m afraid.

 

[brennele]

OK, that makes sense. Thanks for the clarification. I am in the medical field so I perceive 18-25 year-olds as pretty much the same animal. For our purposes, in treating patients, there is not much difference. After your explanation, I understand. I will be the first to say, I was blown away by Hanyu. His SP was the first I ever saw of him. My schedule does not permit much TV time or time to follow FS. Once I saw Hanyu, I was a fan, big time. Of course, what can you tell from TV but he seems like a very humble and nice person, as well. If you don't mind answering another question, I would be most appreciated. Max referenced Chen's mom saying "the mom adds a whole other dimension...." What did he mean? Did he mean that the Mom interferes? Maybe he meant that Chen is very grateful to his Mom and wanted to do well for her sake so that was more pressure on him. Hanyu? Well his skating was inspiring - different from anything I ever saw

 

[Fairuza]

OK, that makes sense. Thanks for the clarification. I am in the medical field so I perceive 18-25 year-olds as pretty much the same animal. For our purposes, in treating patients, there is not much difference. After your explanation, I understand. I will be the first to say, I was blown away by Hanyu. His SP was the first I ever saw of him. My schedule does not permit much TV time or time to follow FS. Once I saw Hanyu, I was a fan, big time. Of course, what can you tell from TV but he seems like a very humble and nice person, as well. If you don't mind answering another question, I would be most appreciated. Max referenced Chen's mom saying "the mom adds a whole other dimension...." What did he mean? Did he mean that the Mom interferes? Maybe he meant that Chen is very grateful to his Mom and wanted to do well for her sake so that was more pressure on him. Hanyu? Well his skating was inspiring - different from anything I ever saw

Which means you haven’t been watching men’s figure skating for at least 7 years, because Yuzuru has been a major force since 2011 (when he was 16).
And the current records belong to him - I can only recommend his Sochi SP, his 2015 World records, his flawed but fantastic Prince of last year and his free program at 2017 World championship.
The current Hanyu is Hanyu coming straight from a severe injury, so he hasn’t shown best of his abilities in his free. The short was out of this world...