Are Evgenia & Alina the "Michelle & Tara" of 2018?

[berthesghost]

The big difference is that Alina now has a momentum Tara didn’t enjoy pre-Nagano. After her breakthrough wins of 97 nats, gpf and worlds she seemed to backslide losing SA to Kwan, Lalique to Hubert, winning gpf without Kwan and then losing to Kwan decisively again at 98 Nats.

 

[bardtoob]

Zagitova is definitely looking like the new Tara in the sense that she is now the top upstart.

 

[becca]

The big difference is that Alina now has a momentum Tara didn’t enjoy pre-Nagano. After her breakthrough wins of 97 nats, gpf and worlds she seemed to backslide losing SA to Kwan, Lalique to Hubert, winning gpf without Kwan and then losing to Kwan decisively again at 98 Nats.

I think losing a few competitions may have taken the pressure off Tara. She was the reigning world and two time GPF champ who was an underdog. Tara had two years of World competition and was pretty seasoned. It might be a lot to ask Alina to go to the Olympics as the favorite and go squeaky clean.

 

[bardtoob]

I admit it. Zagitova sold me during the 2018 Euros SP when she came out of that 2A with such power.

 

[Allskate]

Kwan continued to dominate at the begining of the 96-97 season and when she won Lalique and Tara took bronze, no one was calling them “rivals”.

With that said, both Michelle and even Tara (in her refined and exciting 1998 programs) were more the artist-type skater, in my opinion, compared to Med and Zag.

Michelle had been on the scene longer and people first became familiar with her during the Tonya/Nancy saga. She also was definitely the more experienced skater and seen as the established American champion skater. The media definitely viewed them as rivals and saw Michelle as the established champion and Tara as the upstart. (There was some pretty petty and mean press about Tara.) And a lot of fans saw it that way, too. Michelle was clearly seen as the favorite to win, but Tara wasn't just an afterthought. Also, no way was Tara seen as an artistic skater even though she worked hard to improve that part of her skating. She was the one doing the 3looop/3 loop combo and doing a triple toe/half loop/triple sal in the last twenty seconds of her program. I doubt she would have won without those.

I think they both had a ton of pressure on them. There was a lot more media attention on American skating at the time and the American women were expected to bring home the gold. I'm sure the Russian skaters are feeling a ton of pressure right now, too, because they are battling each other for the win and because Russians are expecting them to bring home the gold, even if they aren't technically skating for "Russia."

 

[Coco]

I admit it. Zagitova sold me during the 2018 Euros SP when she came out of that 2A with such power.

I don't see 6 bullet points on that layback spin, especially not after a -1 after recentering the spin with her first change of position.

 

[bardtoob]

I don't see 6 bullet points on that layback spin, especially not after a -1 after recentering the spin with her first change of position.

I just mean in terms of admitting I like her skating.

I do admit the scores on the protocols are generous. I do not understand why the judges are driving towards given +3 and 10s on everything so the only thing differentiating skaters in TES Base Value and Late Jump Bonus.

 

[Vash01]

Can an admin please move this thread to the Trash can? This is pure speculation. There is no article or interview or anything published is being discussed here. There are many interesting threads in the Trashcan and this will fit in well there. JMO. Thank you.

 

[barbk]

Well just take a look at the results from Euros on Ice Network (I don't think you have to be a member to access the event page and Results). Looks like the favor has gone to Zag, although Med didn't skate a clean program (which I have yet to watch).
Upsets can be fun to watch but with Med's dominance, I hope she can be 100% at the Olympics, and her Worlds experience will help her with all the pressure at such a significant and large event.

Med was not the Med we've seen at any competition in the past few years. She is coming back from an injury and some of her jumps lacked oomph. I don't know how long she's been back on the ice, but her conditioning didn't look great. However, despite the issues, she didn't give up. In some ways (artistically) she actually seems a better skater now. I'm not writing her off for the Olympics, that's for sure.

 

[love_skate2011]

yes, but i don't another 15 year old to win and then retire or get hit by puberty and history repeating itself ala Tara and Julia.
So I hope the wind goes into the favor the other way around this time...

 

[bardtoob]

...history repeating itself ala Tara and Julia.
So I hope the wind goes into the favor the

Sarah ... Oksana ...

 

[love_skate2011]

Sarah ... Oksana ...

I forgot about Oksana, while Hughes was I call a Grand Fluke at the right time, shades of Sotnikova though Sara had more repertoire to win gold. AT least Medvedeva has proven herself and is intending to continue post Olympics.

 

[bardtoob]

I forgot about Oksana, while Hughes was I call a Grand Fluke at the right time, shades of Sotnikova though Sara had more repertoire to win gold. AT least Medvedeva has proven herself and is intending to continue post Olympics.

I think age benefited Oksana, Sarah, Tara, Yulia, Zagitova ...

 

[aftershocks]

Nope. They are PCS over-rated Evgenia and Alina, one-two punch of Eteri's Russian ladies hype machine.

Just wondering about this National rivalry revival. The young and powerful vs. the younger and (even more) powerful. The ratified vs. the "up-and-coming". Would Alina winning over Evgenia be considered an Olympic upset? Just as the Tara win over Michelle is to many?

There's no similarity whatsoever. A different era, very different competitors too. Plus Alina and Janny have the same coach, and both are very young. This is Alina's first year in seniors; it was Tara's second and she was the defending World champion heading into the Olympics. Janny has been a fairly consistent rotator, but her PCS are overdone. The entire field today is an entirely different animal. There's a lot more depth in many countries. This is Alina's first year in seniors, and her PCS are over-rated as well. Next we have the huge factor of the one-two punch Canadians, which did not exist back in 1998.

The comparison with 1998 is a huge reach. Janny (being injured and therefore not competing) did not have perfect performances at Russian nationals the way MK did in Philadelphia, which is more memorable than Nagano in the first place. The comparison sounds like an Olympic-frenzy talking point to ramp up interest in what seems more like a foregone conclusion. I certainly wouldn't see Alina winning gold as any kind of upset. The upset would be if Kaetlyn Osmond got her act together and landed on top of the podium, and if Mirai triple-axeled her way to at least bronze.

If you compare Michelle and Evgenia at same age, they both are artistic, and complete packages.

If you compare either one with Carolina, it's no contest. Michelle and Evgenia beat her by a mile upto age 24.

Say what? I don't see how you arrive at those conclusions. Evgenia is more like Tara -- talented technically, but way over-studied presentation-wise, albeit graceful. Neither Evgenia now, nor Tara in her heyday are anywhere near Michelle Kwan interpretively and artistically. Carolina Kostner has come a very long way. At her best, Carolina does come close to Michelle in some respects artistically, but not technically. Carolina beats both Alina and Evgenia by way more than a mile artistically!

 

[bardtoob]

@aftershocks Interesting comments.

 

[MAXSwagg]

Nope. They are PCS over-rated Evgenia and Alina, one-two punch of Eteri's Russian ladies hype machine.



There's no similarity whatsoever. A different era, very different competitors too. Plus Alina and Janny have the same coach, and both are very young. This is Alina's first year in seniors; it was Tara's second and she was the defending World champion heading into the Olympics. Janny has been a fairly consistent rotator, but her PCS are overdone. The entire field today is an entirely different animal. There's a lot more depth in many countries. This is Alina's first year in seniors, and her PCS are over-rated as well. Next we have the huge factor of the one-two punch Canadians, which did not exist back in 1998.

The comparison with 1998 is a huge reach. Janny (being injured and therefore not competing) did not have perfect performances at Russian nationals the way MK did in Philadelphia, which is more memorable than Nagano in the first place. The comparison sounds like an Olympic-frenzy talking point to ramp up interest in what seems more like a foregone conclusion. I certainly wouldn't see Alina winning gold as any kind of upset. The upset would be if Kaetlyn Osmond got her act together and landed on top of the podium, and if Mirai triple-axeled her way to at least bronze.



Say what? I don't see how you arrive at those conclusions. Evgenia is more like Tara -- talented technically, but way over-studied presentation-wise, albeit graceful. Neither Evgenia now, nor Tara in her heyday are anywhere near Michelle Kwan interpretively and artistically. Carolina Kostner has come a very long way. At her best, Carolina does come close to Michelle in some respects artistically, but not technically. Carolina beats both Alina and Evgenia by way more than a mile artistically!

SPOT ON! I was re-watching Med's SP from last season and when she did the hop-scotch and jump rope, I think "When the judges see this, do they think "My goodness, this is BRILLIANT! The best choreography I've seen!"?" Based on the scores, it seems they did.

 

[aftershocks]

@aftershocks Interesting comments.

^^ Yep, and in any case, let's face it: As we can see from Euros result, Alina is a bit more interesting than Evgenia in how she's been packaged. Both are nice looking teenagers, but Alina is more robust-looking physically. Both seem to have steel in their veins and they are good technically on the basis of having quick rotations and solid jump technique. It has to be clear to anyone with eyes though that both Kaetlyn Osmond and Gabby Daleman are superior with the height and power of their jumps as well as with their speed and ice coverage. Add to that the fact that both Kaetlyn and Gabby have more well-rounded programs aesthetically and performance-wise. It's just that politics plays such a huge role in figure skating, and Russia despite being laughably 'banned' from the Olympics as a country, still has the political hype going for their skaters, especially their baby lady phenoms.

For my taste, Janny has too many mannerisms and histrionics going on. Bad habits that may be hard for her to break going forward. With her small frame, it's not clear that she's ever going to develop more power and height on her jumps. Right now, I see more potential in Alina, once again if her coaches would stop smothering and over-controlling her talent with all the excess. I agree with what Sandra Bezic said in that respect. Alina seems to have more of a modern edgy vibe, but Eteri insists upon the conceited and overdone balletic theme. Alina's jumps too are well-rotated and determined, but also lack the height and power of the Canadian ladies. Neither Janny nor Alina are artistically mature and sophisticated but the judges always seem eager to be taken in by their overexaggerated dramatics, which is simply Eteri's effort to camouflage her young charges' aesthetic weaknesses.

The thing for both top Canadian ladies is going to be confidence and consistency. They will need to go clean. Gabby could slay if she skates like she did at Cdn Nationals. But still, politics is always a factor in the judging. It remains to be seen if Mirai will bring her A-game and skate clean. Even with Mirai landing the 3-axel though, the politics is not really there. Bradie Tennell is wonderful technically and she can definitely hold her own against the Russians in that respect. I also think Bradie's aesthetics are actually no worse nor better than the Russians. Bradie's skating is just more open, straight-forward and down-to-earth. She's not being over-packaged like Alina & Janny. But well, Bradie isn't Russian, thus she's not Eteri-manufactured.

 

[berthesghost]

I agree that Oly results are more about politics than skating, but I remember 98 and there were plenty of people who found the USA's "tykes with triples" dominance of Michelle and Tara more about politics than skating. Nagano may have been all about just those two, but 2 decades later and FSU is still passionately debating if they were "overrated"
Just because I agree that neither Russian can match MK's artistry doesn't mean I don't also realize I've drunk the Kwan-aide

 

[shady82]

entire post

I agree with pretty much everything you said. The one small area where I think differently is that Vash01 was saying Evgenia was superior to Carolina artistically at around ages 17-18. This I might agree with. Evgenia certainly does not hold a candle to Caro at the current time, but might develop as an artist more when she reaches the mid-20s (if she is even still skating then, or able to keep up in Russia).

As with Eteri's "hype machine", I don't see what Zagitova did when she was a junior last year that is so much better than what Eteri's juniors are doing this year. In fact, Zagitova's JGPF total score beats everyone's at the JGPF this year, which is laughable. What did Alina do that was so much better than what the juniors are doing this season? She was scored very generously in her first senior Russian Nationals, while Kostornaya was told to wait with lower PCS and lower overall score than Konstantinova in the long. Lipnitskaya, Medvedeva, and especially Zagitova with her astronomical score inflation are the Eteri skaters who are/were hyped. I think her juniors this season have been scored fairly, thankfully.

Finally, if people continue with the analogies, Kostner could be like Lu Chen, and if only Pogo was here so she could be Bute. Or to be consistent with nationality, she could be Bobek.

 

[pETEs (Sasha Fan)]

Possibly, although Tara had already won Worlds ... But Zagitova might win that in the Spring.

The thing is, in this COP historic moment, world records seem as heavy as world titles in determining who's who.

 

[SmallFairy]

As I wrote in another thread, I watched ladies free with some friends last night. One has watched lots of skating, also live, (but not so much the recent years) and love it. The other two enjoys watching it a lot, but only when I turn the tv or youtube on for them, and they have no clue about technique. They all thought Zagitova was fab. They really liked her and said (after watching the last two groups until then) "She's not boring. There was something going on in that program all the time". When Med skated, they said "she was dull". Fun to get the outside perspective

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Given how Carolina is still skating pretty well at 30, will we see Zagitova and Medvedeva in 10 - 15 years still competing?

 

[Meoima]

Given how Carolina is still skating pretty well at 30, will we see Zagitova and Medvedeva in 10 - 15 years still competing?

Carolina has no rival in Italia.
Zagitova and Medvedeva have several dozens great younger ladies behind them who can do even more difficulty.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Carolina has no rival in Italia.
Zagitova and Medvedeva have several dozens great younger ladies behind them who can do even more difficulty.

True. The depth at Russian Nationals in the ladies event was such, it could have been a world championship.

So many talented young ladies at the junior and senior level in Russia.

 

[Eeyora1]

Given how Carolina is still skating pretty well at 30, will we see Zagitova and Medvedeva in 10 - 15 years still competing?

I wish!

I’d love to see Zhenya grow as an artist. Although not as technically perfect. I’m enjoying this dark angst period on her skating.

 

[briancoogaert]

I don't think Medvedeva's PCS are overrated the way Zagtova's are.
IMO, Medvedeva's only problem is her bad jumps done with hip and shoulders.
She is not a natural jumper and it will be more and more difficult for her with ages.
Anyway, she is a super skater, very fast, good flow over the ice.

Zagitova on the other hand have probably better jumps than Medvedeva, but as Medvedeva, she doesn't have much power in her jumps. I don't how it will evolve. And she is slow and sometimes her flow seems labored.
Her PCS are way too high !

JMHO, of course

 

[altai_rose]

I wish!

I’d love to see Zhenya grow as an artist. Although not as technically perfect. I’m enjoying this dark angst period on her skating.

You might like Zhenya’s gala skate!

 

[berthesghost]

Carolina has no rival in Italia.
Zagitova and Medvedeva have several dozens great younger ladies behind them who can do even more difficulty.

True. But Lip, Sot, Rad, Pogo and Tuk didn’t continue skating the same and still get surpassed. The Russian sausage machine spews these kids out and tosses them away when they’ve stopped being useful. It’s a sweat shop and I cringe every time someone holds it up as an ideal.

 

[Eeyora1]

You might like Zhenya’s gala skate!

And I’m loving it!

 

[altai_rose]

True. But Lip, Sot, Rad, Pogo and Tuk didn’t continue skating the same and still get surpassed. The Russian sausage machine spews these kids out and tosses them away when they’ve stopped being useful. It’s a sweat shop and I cringe every time someone holds it up as an ideal.

You do realize that 5/6 (or 4/6 if you don't count Sot) are still skating today, and still enjoy strong support from their coaches and federation, even when they're at a "low" in their skating career, right?