A skating judge walks you through the scoring system

I think the video was simply trying to explain to people who only watch figure skating a couple of times a year, that there is a lot to the judging system and that it's not just about not falling over.
Exactly. The listing of all the elements in the video is just an example of what is going in your mind when judging.

I can tell you now, just talking to people who really don't know much about skating as a casual viewer, they are usually in awe of what you know and can explain.
 
Ah thanks all. A glorified skating fan Wendy Enzmann is NOT. Wrong choice of words. More likely I was projecting, and as I inferred previously that description is probably more accurate to me. :p I was not making fun of volunteers. I do understand the necessary and important work of all volunteers, and of course I realize that judges are not paid.

Anyway as regards Enzmann, I am glad to be corrected, as I emphasized that I could be wrong. I did wonder whether or not Enzmann was a former skater, and I should have checked beforehand. So Enzmann has lived and breathed figure skating practically all of her life. Therefore, she probably has no problem at all with incessantly counting spin revolutions and explaining the WTF IJS judging system because she obviously truly loves the sport and she truly gives her all in trying to make it work as a judge and a behind-the-scenes official. And she clearly seems to love the work she does. No need at all for me to feel sad for her about what it takes to be an ISU judge. Kudos to Wendy Enzmann. :respec:

I agree as I mentioned in my earlier posts that Enzmann must have participated in the article/short video as a way to help fans understand some of what goes into the judging. It was certainly not a very detailed explanation or a complete workout of a "walk through the scoring system." But no fault of hers, and for what it was the feature might have been helpful to some fans. I do disagree with the picking on Adam, as I said. I think U.S. men are unfairly dismissed enough as it is. However, I never thought Enzmann had any overall dislike or problem with Adam on a personal or professional level. Still, I was disappointed by the over-attention on Adam's fall (clip from U.S. Nats?) on the quad lutz (which Enzmann referred to as a triple lutz), and the nitpicking about his lean in the air on his 3-axel. Adam truly deserves cheers for working hard at conquering his problems with this nemesis jump. I don't think the lean should take away too much from GOE as long as the landing is as secure as Adam has been achieving recently with such consistency. Even Javi and other athletes may lean in the air on some jumps and still land successfully. I realize that Javi's jumps tend to be more spectacular looking in the air and are generally straight most of the time with more assured technique. As I said previously, it could be that Enzmann also made complimentary remarks about Adam that were cut out, and we're left with the nitpicky ones.

I personally feel that the U.S. men do not get enough credit for how talented they are, largely because of the skewed emphasis on quads, which does not mean I hate quads. There are U.S. men who helped pioneer quads (Brian Boitano, Michael Chack, etc) and some who have made quad-related records (Brandon Mroz, Timothy Goebel, Nathan Chen) or who have notched personal quad-related victories (Evan Lysacek, Max Aaron, Richard Dornbush, Ross Miner, Grant Hochstein, Armin Mahbahnoozadeh, etc) in one way or another. Yet their achievements have tended to be diminished or simply go under the radar, especially now in the current environment of 300+ quad-related scoring victories.

I give Adam a lot of credit for his perseverance and courage in keeping with training the quad lutz and continuing to put it out there in big competitions. For me personally, I don't think that extra revolution is a savior of the sport. I think the quad's impact was not understood soon enough, and that how it should be scored, trained and looked at with a longer view just has never been given the kind of thoughtful, thorough and judicious attention it deserves. If you will forgive me, I must say that the kind of attention the quad gets is unfortunately rather glorified, over-hyped and OTT, with lack of deeper understanding. But I've opined before, and I realize when it comes to quads most fans and officials have made up their minds/ closed their minds.
 
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I thought Enzmann's "nitpicking about [Rippon's] lean in the air on his 3-axel" was a good observation - it's something I had noticed as a fan and therefore I was very encouraged to see that the air position on his 3A looked much improved in the practices I saw at Worlds.

Another ISU judge and Referee of the Men's event at 2016 U.S. Nationals, Tamie Campbell, made some comments about judging in this Rolling Stone article that was published before Boston Worlds (I figured the article may be more relevant here than in the U.S. Men's thread): http://www.rollingstone.com/sports/features/u-s-figure-skating-stylish-men-wanted-20160401
 
Anyone who follows Adam Rippon have witnessed his struggles with the 3-axel. I don't think we need Wendy Enzmann to help us perceive that Adam has a tendency to lean in the air on his 3-axels! And yes, Adam is improving a lot in all aspects of his skating, and he is correcting that lean as he becomes more confident and assured with his landings on this former nemesis jump.

If Enzmann especially wanted to focus on leans in the air, there are plenty of skaters who could have been featured, including Javier Fernandez and/ or a past skater such as Todd Eldredge who was known for correcting faulty takeoffs or leans in the air with his catlike abilities to land jumps. It's simply not just about the lean in the air obviously. It's also about whether or not the jump was successfully landed, which should allow for fewer deduction of points on GOE. For me, it's more the underlying less obvious technical aspects of skating, the conflicting perceptions of judges, and the inconsistencies of the judging system that I could benefit from having explained. :COP:

Adam's fall on quad lutz and lean on triple axel are easy, nitpicking observations, not necessarily good ones for the purposes of the article/ video. Unless part of the purpose was trying to explain why a U.S. man just might not make it into the top ten, which a lot of fans and people in the sport seemed to have been overly concerned about, too easily dismissive of U.S. guys in the current environment and thus willing to accept. Three U.S. guys placed in the top ten at Worlds!!! Thank you very much Adam Rippon, Max Aaron, and Grant Hochstein! :cheer2: No thanks to those stingy PCS scores, especially for Adam and Grant. :duh:

Why not try not to highlight a minor weakness of the top U.S. men's skater and current U.S. National champion? Or, if you must feature Adam Rippon in a negative light, why not try to balance that by pointing out his strong points, especially his gorgeous spin positions? Particularly if you are the U.S. team leader for the 2016 World championships in Boston.
 
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I'm waiting to read what @aftershocks thinks of the Rolling Stone article. :p

Thanks as always @Sylvia. And please do give me a chance to read it first. I was just responding immediately to your reference to Enzmann's "good observation." :)

The thing about figure skating is there's always so much to talk about, and so much to continue learning and trying to understand. As I've said often, there are a lot of gray areas and too much tendency for black-and-white thinking, PC-thinking and over-hype.

I will take the time to read the article you posted. And thanks as always for your dedicated research, deep involvement in the sport, and indefatigable sharing with fans. :respec:


Me thinks that some people are reading way too much into this article. What do you expect from a less than 3 minute video clip which is meant to provide only a brief summary?

Yep, it was a mis-titled feature and a brief clip. And you make a good point. Still, I referenced my views initially very briefly and then humorously (as have others), so no I'm not reading that much into it. I qualified all of my comments in as fair a way as possible. It's clearly not just about the article/video. It's about the current quad environment in the sport, which can skew perceptions by everyone about everything.
 
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:rofl: Dare I .... :lol: Nevermind ... Gotta finish reading that Rolling Stone article posted by @Sylvia. So much to do, so little time. ;)

Suffice to say that PC-thinking can be overdone and over-rated, whilst P/C-thinking and watching can be endlessly rewarding ... :inavoid:

OTOH, PCs in particular are a necessary evil/ taken for granted delight and/or nightmare. :p

Juggling open tabs while minding my p's and q's ... and c's. :cool:
 
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I thought Enzmann's "nitpicking about [Rippon's] lean in the air on his 3-axel" was a good observation - it's something I had noticed as a fan and therefore I was very encouraged to see that the air position on his 3A looked much improved in the practices I saw at Worlds.

Another ISU judge and Referee of the Men's event at 2016 U.S. Nationals, Tamie Campbell, made some comments about judging in this Rolling Stone article that was published before Boston Worlds (I figured the article may be more relevant here than in the U.S. Men's thread): http://www.rollingstone.com/sports/features/u-s-figure-skating-stylish-men-wanted-20160401

Given that PCS frequently seems to be inflated (I guess I should qualify that by saying, in my view), I find Ms. Campbell's comment that judges are required to "undergo rigorous training prove artistic chops enough to assess these components," interesting to say the least.
 
"She's constantly in character emotionally while performing the difficult turns."

Take that, haters! :kickass: :p :D
I loved how that went with the visual of Gracie doing her egg-laying Besti squat mid-step sequence. :)
I thought Enzmann's "nitpicking about [Rippon's] lean in the air on his 3-axel" was a good observation - it's something I had noticed as a fan and therefore I was very encouraged to see that the air position on his 3A looked much improved in the practices I saw at Worlds.

Another ISU judge and Referee of the Men's event at 2016 U.S. Nationals, Tamie Campbell, made some comments about judging in this Rolling Stone article that was published before Boston Worlds (I figured the article may be more relevant here than in the U.S. Men's thread): http://www.rollingstone.com/sports/features/u-s-figure-skating-stylish-men-wanted-20160401
OUCH at the author's evaluation of Hochstein:
If international judges factor high-difficulty jumps into the components, Hochstein – a flat-footed, melodramatic arm flailer who completed no quads at the national championships – stands no chance at breaking the top ten at the World Championships.
Ha, guess what? The "melodramatic arm flailer" DID break the top 10. Take that! Seems pretty clear that the author doesn't understand what constitutes "skating skills." *Looking powerful* on the ice like Max Aaron isn't necessarily the cine qua non of skating skills. She thought Aaron's power = great skating skills, but those of us who have seen him skate know that his AMAZING quadriceps don't make him a master of the blade. He's good, but not as commanding as others. The author also couldn't understand why Vincent Zhou (who landed 2 quads) didn't do better. Tamie Campbell apparently didn't explain the PCS very well. There *are* in fact technical components in the PCS--eg, you can't have good skating skills if your technique, overall, isn't top notch. You aren't going to have a variety of difficult transitions if you don't have command of the blade (you won't be able to handle difficult and complex transitions). You aren't going to be able to perform well or execute interesting choreography that matches the music if you aren't incredibly strong and if you don't have control of your entire body (not to mention, again, excellent skating skills).

And may I reiterate the 1 UR quad + 8 triples that Adam landed, to Max's 2 ugly quads + 5 triples, at nationals, dear author? If you think skating is only about the jumps and all.

The author of this article goes about as deep as some of the comments and clearly doesn't understand much about skating. Another "artistry is baloney" article.
 
Looking at that author's history, it looks like she (I'm assuming it's a "she" as Tracy can be both a male and female name) is on Tom Zakrajsek's payroll or has a big interest in Max Aaron's career. Her style of writing would make Christine Brennan circa 1994-1998/1999 proud.
 
Oh my word. :lol: Okay, not enough time for a thoroughly detailed assessment at the moment (and others have already noted some of the confounding WTF premises and characterizations). However, to start I will say that Tracy O'Neill is a decent writer and obviously she appears to be a fan of figure skating with some knowledge. I truly appreciate the fact that there is increasingly more figure skating coverage in mainstream media, and I hope we will be privileged to have more and better over time, especially in the United States. Hungry die-hard figure skating fans are always hoping and praying. :drama: :p

Speaking of drama, it is unsurprising that there is a bit of hyperbole, embellished language, impoverished historical knowledge/ perspective, and yes sadly too much quad-centric PC-thinking in this article. :duh: That said, once again I do have to admire Ms. O'Neill for strutting her stuff and putting her views and reporting on the sport out there. I suppose she can't be blamed for not realizing there is a great deal to learn and uncover about figure skating's past that has a bearing on the current state of the sport. She can be blamed however for :eek: phrasing such as "wonky, beautiful sport/art hybrid," and incredibly inaccurate statements such as "... Hochstein – a flat-footed, melodramatic arm flailer who completed no quads at the national championships – stands no chance at breaking the top ten at the World Championships." Woah!!!

O'Neill needs to apologize to Grant Hochstein posthaste. Grant did complete a quad in his fp at U.S. Nationals with a slight touchdown of his free leg after an otherwise clean landing. Did O'Neill even see Grant's 4th place wonderful performances at two GP events last fall, with completed quads? :rolleyes: Grant is a very expressive, emotional and lyrical skater who has worked very hard to improve and to receive the wonderful, deserving opportunities that he has this season. His results have been notable, celebratory and very satisfying. Also, figure skating is art and sport, period. I think the judging system, the politics, and ISU regulating/ officiating/ lack of vision can be described as wonky, but the uniqueness of figure skating, not so much. In any case, figure skating is not an easy sport to participate in, and not an easy topic to write about, much less understand all aspects of, particularly the inherent political aspects which this article doesn't seem to take fully into account. There's more I could break down later re O'Neill's article. She also wrote an article on Max Aaron that was published in Rolling Stone, March 31, 2016:
http://www.rollingstone.com/sports/...ive-figure-skating-a-kick-in-the-ice-20160330

Apparently Tracy O'Neill is an award-winning young fiction and non-fiction writer in addition to her figure skating sports journalism forays. She was named a '5 under 35 honoree' by the National Book Foundation for her novel about figure skating, The Hopeful. Good luck to Ms. O'Neill and I hope she takes the time to delve deeper into acquiring an understanding of figure skating's history, technical evolution over time, and crazy politics. She should also try to be more fair-minded, aesthetically astute and less scathing toward an accomplished skater like Grant Hochstein.

http://tracyoneill.net/i-am
 
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Pardon me @VIETgrlTerifa. If I must spell it out for you ... yes I think there are a lot of quad-centric viewpoints and politically correct thinking about quads that currently exists among fans, officials, commentators and part-time figure skating reporters, such as Ms. O'Neill, as well as among more established figure skating reporters, such as Phil Hersh. Go figure. :duh:

Plenty of words and phrases have their usage and meaning expanded and changed over time. To your obvious dismay/ disgust, "pc" in all it's abbreviated glory is in that category. :D

http://reason.com/blog/2015/01/30/what-the-hell-does-politically-correct-m

"... it describes so many things that you can't use it without worrying that people won't understand what you're talking about." :rofl:

I am talking about many observers and participants wanting to be seen as appreciative of quads to the point where quads have become over-hyped, over-scored, over-worshipped and uber-damaging in more ways than one. But it is not politically correct in the current environment for me to think that or say that. Whatever disdain you have for the use of 'politically-correct' in conjunction with quad-centric, you are surely aware of the superior point-gathering status/ hegemony of quads.
 
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Adam's fall on quad lutz and lean on triple axel are easy, nitpicking observations, not necessarily good ones for the purposes of the article/ video. Unless part of the purpose was trying to explain why a U.S. man just might not make it into the top ten

Why not try not to highlight a minor weakness of the top U.S. men's skater and current U.S. National champion? Or, if you must feature Adam Rippon in a negative light, why not try to balance that by pointing out his strong points, especially his gorgeous spin positions? Particularly if you are the U.S. team leader for the 2016 World championships in Boston.

I'm sure most judges nitpick all skaters equally. Adam was probably just the example at hand. It don't think it's personal.
 
I actually asked because I've seen the word "PC" or "politically correct" misused so many times in my life, but no matter who was misusing it, it seemed to be misused in the same sort of way. I had no idea what you meant by PC in the context of quads, which is why I asked as I don't think the term has "evolved" so far to make sense in the way you were using it. I still don't quite think you're using it correctly, even after you explained yourself and said the word/phrase virtually lost all meaning and therefore anyone could use it any way they want.
 
I'm sure most judges nitpick all skaters equally. Adam was probably just the example at hand. It don't think it's personal.

^^ As I already said, I don't think it's personal either, and who knows how many casual viewers who attended Worlds actually saw the feature anyway. As a fan of skating and of Adam, I commented on it and moved on. And now I'm only responding to others' comments about my commenting. :D

I have to side with @VIETgrlTerifa on this one. Political correctness relates to sensitivity to disadvantaged/stereotyped groups. It sounds really silly to say that judging is influenced by PC thinking, unless you are dicussing cultural appropriation like wearing makeup to darken your skin.

Yes well, you can be politically correct about the proper politically correct usage of politically correct terminology in relation to quads in figure skating all you want. :duh: :lol: And maybe read the Mother Jones article for an enlightening laugh or two, or three. :p
 
^^ Seriously? :duh: Lighten up please. I don't suppose you are all bent out of shape about Politically Incorrect as the title of a section on here, or as the name of Bill Maher's former political-minded comedy talk show which got banned and cancelled from network television because of Bill's and guests' politically incorrect jokes and opinions during the Bush administration years. :p

I actually asked because I've seen the word "PC" or "politically correct" misused so many times in my life, but no matter who was misusing it, it seemed to be misused in the same sort of way. I had no idea what you meant by PC in the context of quads, which is why I asked as I don't think the term has "evolved" so far to make sense in the way you were using it. I still don't quite think you're using it correctly, even after you explained yourself and said the word/phrase virtually lost all meaning and therefore anyone could use it any way they want.

I might be using the term in a way you don't like, or think is correct but I'm not the first and I surely won't be the last. No comfort to you, obviously. :lol: If you wish to wrap your head around the evolution/ misuse/ historical origins, read and try to make sense of the linked Mother Jones article, or not. ;)

One person's sense of 'correct' could be another person's :yawn:, or :mad:, or :blah:. Can we at least agree that Worlds in Boston was a blast? :40beers:
 
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Obviously no one needs to do anything they don't wish to do. I merely offered a link and a suggestion. No biggie. The article explains the prevalent misuse of the term and the hot-potato political fallout surrounding its origins, but again not such a big deal. BTW, there is no 'correct' usage by this point, although there is the original usage. :)
 
Me thinks that some people are reading way too much into this article. What do you expect from a less than 3 minute video clip which is meant to provide only a brief summary?
Exactly!

It was a video clip meant to help explain to figure skating viewers (likely to read the major US paper where the video was posted) how much goes into judging a skater and to provide illustrations of that. I don't think there was any bias or agenda involved.
 
"She's constantly in character emotionally while performing the difficult turns."

Take that, haters! :kickass: :p :D
Right? And she didn't mention her stiff knees. :eek: Go figure.

As to Adam's air position, I fear she is right, it's a bit off the axis. As much as I adore Chan's skating, his air position bugs me for a different reason, he is not zipped up and his knees are bent almost in a plié, not pulled in all the way. It bugs me even when he lands the jumps. I can see why Hanyu gets higher GOE for the same jump.
 

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