2022-23 US Pairs Discussion - Second to None!

[Karen-W]

Nate Bartholomay posted this IG video update regarding their status - https://www.instagram.com/tv/CkMqe96pfGv/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

To summarize - about 8.5 weeks ago he suffered an elbow injury that required surgery and kept hin off the ice a few weeks, when he returned his blade broke and he wound up needing new blades & boots, as he was working through that he took a hard fall which resulted in a minor sciatic nerve injury a couple weeks ago - ultimately, they decided it would be better to withdraw from SCI and aim for MKJW instead, plus the remainder of the season.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I finally got back to California and watched all of skate America in a stupor last night, looks like NBC and E showed everything but the pairs free skate? I don’t seem to have the pairs free skate, bummer

 

[love skating]

The USA channel showed the last flight - the final four pairs before showing all of the men's free on Saturday night (three hour broadcast).

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

The USA channel showed the last flight - the final four pairs before showing all of the men's free on Saturday night (three hour broadcast).

hmmmmm I wonder why it did not record for me, I think I still have that channel with my cable, I’ll have to check it out

 

[DreamSkates]

Until they have more than one senior pairs team, it's not much of a fight...

Skate Canada pairs short program result.

 

[Karen-W]

Skate Canada pairs short program result.

Lower score than KniFraz's SP score last week. And they still only have one senior pairs team on the GP this season. Sorry, you're going to have to do better to convince me that Japan's pairs program is better than the USA's.

 

[Karen-W]

Hmmmm... interesting that KniFraz appear to be booked to skate in the Art on Ice shows in Zurich the same week as 4CCs...

Art on Ice on Instagram: "Good News für Art on Ice Fans: Die aktuellen Weltmeister im Paarlauf 𝗔𝗹𝗲𝘅𝗮 𝗞𝗻𝗶𝗲𝗿𝗶𝗺 & 𝗕𝗿𝗮𝗻𝗱𝗼𝗻 𝗙𝗿𝗮𝘇𝗶𝗲𝗿 werden ebenfalls Teil der Art-on-Ice-Familie sein 💙 Seit frühster Kindheit stehen die beiden US-Amerikaner auf dem Eis ⛸️ D

177 likes, 4 comments - artonicemagic on October 28, 2022: "Good News für Art on Ice Fans: Die aktuellen Weltmeister im Paarlauf 𝗔𝗹𝗲𝘅𝗮 𝗞𝗻𝗶𝗲𝗿𝗶𝗺 & 𝗕𝗿𝗮𝗻𝗱𝗼𝗻 𝗙𝗿𝗮𝘇𝗶𝗲𝗿 werden ebenfalls Teil der Art-on-Ice-Familie sein 💙 Seit frühster Kindheit stehen die beiden US-Amerikaner auf dem Eis ⛸️ Doch erst...

www.instagram.com

 

[skatfan]

Hmmmm... interesting that KniFraz appear to be booked to skate in the Art on Ice shows in Zurich the same week as 4CCs...

Art on Ice on Instagram: "Good News für Art on Ice Fans: Die aktuellen Weltmeister im Paarlauf 𝗔𝗹𝗲𝘅𝗮 𝗞𝗻𝗶𝗲𝗿𝗶𝗺 & 𝗕𝗿𝗮𝗻𝗱𝗼𝗻 𝗙𝗿𝗮𝘇𝗶𝗲𝗿 werden ebenfalls Teil der Art-on-Ice-Familie sein 💙 Seit frühster Kindheit stehen die beiden US-Amerikaner auf dem Eis ⛸️ D

177 likes, 4 comments - artonicemagic on October 28, 2022: "Good News für Art on Ice Fans: Die aktuellen Weltmeister im Paarlauf 𝗔𝗹𝗲𝘅𝗮 𝗞𝗻𝗶𝗲𝗿𝗶𝗺 & 𝗕𝗿𝗮𝗻𝗱𝗼𝗻 𝗙𝗿𝗮𝘇𝗶𝗲𝗿 werden ebenfalls Teil der Art-on-Ice-Familie sein 💙 Seit frühster Kindheit stehen die beiden US-Amerikaner auf dem Eis ⛸️ Doch erst...

www.instagram.com

We’ll that will be little strange for them to miss since it’s in Colorado Springs this year.

 

[Karen-W]

We’ll that will be little strange for them to miss since it’s in Colorado Springs this year.

Definitely. I would have thought the USFS would want them to compete there, but maybe they're fine with letting them skip it and just do Worlds. It's not as though they are going to use the WS points they'd get from 4CCs when the season is said and done, so why not let another team earn some WS points?

 

[skatfan]

I was impressed by both the US teams at Skate Canada today. Chan and Howe in particular looked sharp, but Plazas and Fernandez have some lovely qualities. Pairs is in better shape than I thought in the US.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

We’ll that will be little strange for them to miss since it’s in Colorado Springs this year.

I don’t understand what the fuss is. 99.9% chance they will be the national champions which rarely ever go to 4cc anyway, no big loss if you ask me

I’ve gotten more or less used to that 4CC is where skaters in third and fourth or fifth place get the chance to compete

 

[Karen-W]

I was impressed by both the US teams at Skate Canada today. Chan and Howe in particular looked sharp, but Plazas and Fernandez have some lovely qualities. Pairs is in better shape than I thought in the US.

Plazas/Fernandez are a fairly new team (3rd season and competed juniors last season domestically). I have hope that they'll develop more consistency on the jump/throw elements the more international competitions they get.

Chan/Howe caught my eye a few years ago and, like PlaFern right now, they've needed a few international seasons to start finding their consistency.

We certainly aren't as in bad of shape as people make out - a lot of these teams just need time and competitive opportunities. I think the same is true of many of the new pairs teams internationally. It might seem dire, but there are glimmers of hope everywhere.

 

[Karen-W]

I don’t understand what the fuss is. 99.9% chance they will be the national champions which rarely ever go to 4cc anyway, no big loss if you ask me

Not true. At all. Especially for pairs and dance - the US has almost ALWAYS sent the "A" team, which includes the National Champs. The only seasons we send "whomever" seem to be Olympic seasons, and even then, that's not always been the case - we sent our top 3 in 2006, with the notable exception of 2008 where we also didn't send the national champs (McLaughlin/Brubaker) for some reason, and most seasons we send the top 3 of the Nats pairs podium.

Year - Team (Nats placement)
1999 - Hartsell/Hartsell (1st), Scott/Dulebohn (5th)
2000 - Ina/Zimmerman (1st), Scott/Dulebohn (2nd)
2001 - Ina/Zimmerman (1st), Scott/Dulebohn (2nd), Hartsell/Hartsell (3rd)
2002 - Kalesavich/Parchem (3rd), Inoue/Baldwin Jr (4th)
2003 - Scott/Dulebohn (1st), Orscher/Lucash (2nd), Inoue/Baldwin Jr (3rd)
2004 - Inoue/Baldwin Jr (1st), Orscher/Lucash (2nd), Scott/Dulebohn (3rd)
2005 - Orscher/Lucash (1st), Evora/Ladwig (5th), Castile/Okolski (7th)
2006 - Inoue/Baldwin Jr (1st), Hinzmann/Parchem (2nd), Orscher/Lucash (3rd)
2007 - Castile/Okolski (1st), Inoue/Baldwin Jr (2nd), Nam/Leftheris (3rd)
2008 - Inoue/Baldwin Jr (2nd), Castile/Okolski (3rd), Vise/Trent (4th)
2009 - McLaughlin/Brubaker (1st), C. Denney/Barrett (2nd), Inoue/Baldwin Jr (3rd)
2010 - McLaughlin/Brubaker (5th), Yankowskas/Coughlin (6th), Castelli/Shnapir (10th)
2011 - Yankowskas/Coughlin (1st), Evora/Ladwig (2nd), Marley/Brubaker (4th)
2012 - C. Denney/Coughlin (1st), Marley/Brubaker (2nd), Evora/Ladwig (3rd)
2013 - Castelli/Shnapir (1st), Scimeca (now Knierim)/Knierim (2nd), Zhang/Bartholomay (3rd)
2014 - Scimeca (now Knierim)/Knierim (4th), H. Denney/Frazier (5th), Kayne/O'Shea (6th)
2015 - Scimeca (now Knierim)/Knierim (1st), H. Denney/Frazier (2nd), Kayne/O'Shea (3rd)
2016 - Kayne/O'Shea (1st), Scimeca (now Knierim)/Knierim (2nd), Castelli/Tran (3rd)
2017 - H. Denney/Frazier (1st), Cain/LeDuc (3rd), Knierim/Knierim (WD)
2018 - Kayne/O'Shea (2nd), Stellato-Dudek/Bartholomay (3rd), Cain/LeDuc (4th)
2019 - Cain/LeDuc (1st), H. Denney/Frazier (2nd), Kayne/O'Shea (4th)
2020 - Knierim/Knierim (1st), Calalang/Johnson (2nd), Kayne/O'Shea (3rd)
2021 - n/a
2022 - Lu/Mitrofanov (3rd), Chan/Howe (4th), McBeath/Bartholomay (5th)

 

[ice coverage]

Plazas/Fernandez are a fairly new team (3rd season and competed juniors last season domestically). I have hope that they'll develop more consistency on the jump/throw elements the more international competitions they get. ...

Plazas/Fernandez were U.S. Junior Pairs bronze medalists at 2021 Nationals (first season of their partnership).

They competed in Senior Pairs at 2022 Nationals, and placed sixth.

2022-23 is their first season of international competition. They proudly received their Team USA jackets in September.

Val & Max ⛸️ on Instagram: "Our Team USA jackets came in!!! We are so grateful and excited to be representing the US at Lake Placid! Thankful for our coaching team and our training facility for always being so amazing. We are inspired and ready to t

160 likes, 15 comments - vmskates on September 5, 2022: "Our Team USA jackets came in!!! We are so grateful and excited to be representing the US at Lake Placid! Thankful for our coaching team and our training facility for always being so amazing. We are inspired and ready to take on this...

www.instagram.com

... I have hope that they'll develop more consistency on the jump/throw elements the more international competitions they get. ...

Me too.

 

[RoseRed]

I don’t understand what the fuss is. 99.9% chance they will be the national champions which rarely ever go to 4cc anyway, no big loss if you ask me

I’ve gotten more or less used to that 4CC is where skaters in third and fourth or fifth place get the chance to compete

The National Champions in pairs basically always go to 4CCs, except in Olympic years.

Edit: had written out the whole list since 2007, but I see that @Karen-W already posted it going back further.

I also looked at the other disciplines for that period, and I won't post the whole list since this is the pairs thread, but like Karen said, it's extremely uncommon in dance as well, and only a little more common in singles. Even in singles, in the past 16 years, there were only 3 singles champs who skipped it when age eligible and not injured: Adam in 2016, Ashley in 2013 & 2015, and Nathan in 2019 & 2020. And they all had the same coach.

Not true. At all. Especially for pairs and dance - the US has almost ALWAYS sent the "A" team, which includes the National Champs. The only seasons we send "whomever" seem to be Olympic seasons, and even then, that's not always been the case - we sent our top 3 in 2006, with the notable exception of 2008 where we also didn't send the national champs (McLaughlin/Brubaker) for some reason, and most seasons we send the top 3 of the Nats pairs podium.

McLaughlin/Brubaker weren't eligible in 2008 because she was too young for seniors.

 

[zee703]

I enjoyed reading that list of pairs teams (all the way back to the Hartsells!). Kalesavich & Parchem were favorites of mine.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Not true. At all. Especially for pairs and dance - the US has almost ALWAYS sent the "A" team, which includes the National Champs. The only seasons we send "whomever" seem to be Olympic seasons, and even then, that's not always been the case - we sent our top 3 in 2006, with the notable exception of 2008 where we also didn't send the national champs (McLaughlin/Brubaker) for some reason, and most seasons we send the top 3 of the Nats pairs podium.

Year - Team (Nats placement)
1999 - Hartsell/Hartsell (1st), Scott/Dulebohn (5th)
2000 - Ina/Zimmerman (1st), Scott/Dulebohn (2nd)
2001 - Ina/Zimmerman (1st), Scott/Dulebohn (2nd), Hartsell/Hartsell (3rd)
2002 - Kalesavich/Parchem (3rd), Inoue/Baldwin Jr (4th)
2003 - Scott/Dulebohn (1st), Orscher/Lucash (2nd), Inoue/Baldwin Jr (3rd)
2004 - Inoue/Baldwin Jr (1st), Orscher/Lucash (2nd), Scott/Dulebohn (3rd)
2005 - Orscher/Lucash (1st), Evora/Ladwig (5th), Castile/Okolski (7th)
2006 - Inoue/Baldwin Jr (1st), Hinzmann/Parchem (2nd), Orscher/Lucash (3rd)
2007 - Castile/Okolski (1st), Inoue/Baldwin Jr (2nd), Nam/Leftheris (3rd)
2008 - Inoue/Baldwin Jr (2nd), Castile/Okolski (3rd), Vise/Trent (4th)
2009 - McLaughlin/Brubaker (1st), C. Denney/Barrett (2nd), Inoue/Baldwin Jr (3rd)
2010 - McLaughlin/Brubaker (5th), Yankowskas/Coughlin (6th), Castelli/Shnapir (10th)
2011 - Yankowskas/Coughlin (1st), Evora/Ladwig (2nd), Marley/Brubaker (4th)
2012 - C. Denney/Coughlin (1st), Marley/Brubaker (2nd), Evora/Ladwig (3rd)
2013 - Castelli/Shnapir (1st), Scimeca (now Knierim)/Knierim (2nd), Zhang/Bartholomay (3rd)
2014 - Scimeca (now Knierim)/Knierim (4th), H. Denney/Frazier (5th), Kayne/O'Shea (6th)
2015 - Scimeca (now Knierim)/Knierim (1st), H. Denney/Frazier (2nd), Kayne/O'Shea (3rd)
2016 - Kayne/O'Shea (1st), Scimeca (now Knierim)/Knierim (2nd), Castelli/Tran (3rd)
2017 - H. Denney/Frazier (1st), Cain/LeDuc (3rd), Knierim/Knierim (WD)
2018 - Kayne/O'Shea (2nd), Stellato-Dudek/Bartholomay (3rd), Cain/LeDuc (4th)
2019 - Cain/LeDuc (1st), H. Denney/Frazier (2nd), Kayne/O'Shea (4th)
2020 - Knierim/Knierim (1st), Calalang/Johnson (2nd), Kayne/O'Shea (3rd)
2021 - n/a
2022 - Lu/Mitrofanov (3rd), Chan/Howe (4th), McBeath/Bartholomay (5th)

SHE CAME WITH RECEIPTS!!!!

interesting gosh this feels like for some reason the gold and sometimes silver medalist from the US podium skip it to prepare for worlds while chances are given for teams that finished lower

 

[ilovesalchows]

I enjoyed reading that list of pairs teams (all the way back to the Hartsells!). Kalesavich & Parchem were favorites of mine.

Me too! I had forgotten some of those teams and had to google them.

 

[DreamSkates]

Lower score than KniFraz's SP score last week. And they still only have one senior pairs team on the GP this season. Sorry, you're going to have to do better to convince me that Japan's pairs program is better than the USA's.

Not a need I have at this time.

 

[ice coverage]

Danny O'Shea's partnership with Ellie Kam was officially announced this evening (Oct 30):

M&M Pairs on Instagram: "We are proud to announce our newest addition to #WASAPairs….. Ellie Kam (@ellkwam ) & Danny O’shea (@doshea213 ) 🇺🇸 !!! Wishing you the best of luck this season! Follow along to see more of Ellie and Danny’s journey right h

258 likes, 23 comments - mmpairs on October 30, 2022: "We are proud to announce our newest addition to #WASAPairs….. Ellie Kam (@ellkwam ) & Danny O’shea (@doshea213 ) 🇺🇸 !!! Wishing you the best of luck this season! Follow along to see more of Ellie and Danny’s journey right here at...

www.instagram.com

 

[TanithandBenFan]

Danny O'Shea's partnership with Ellie Kam was officially announced this evening (Oct 30):

M&M Pairs on Instagram: "We are proud to announce our newest addition to #WASAPairs….. Ellie Kam (@ellkwam ) & Danny O’shea (@doshea213 ) 🇺🇸 !!! Wishing you the best of luck this season! Follow along to see more of Ellie and Danny’s journey right h

258 likes, 23 comments - mmpairs on October 30, 2022: "We are proud to announce our newest addition to #WASAPairs….. Ellie Kam (@ellkwam ) & Danny O’shea (@doshea213 ) 🇺🇸 !!! Wishing you the best of luck this season! Follow along to see more of Ellie and Danny’s journey right here at...

www.instagram.com

And one of the comments says “Can’t wait to see you in Austria” so they must be going to Ice Challenge.

 

[AYS]

They took a look at the state of pairs in the first 2 GP events.

 

[Karen-W]

And one of the comments says “Can’t wait to see you in Austria” so they must be going to Ice Challenge.

Ice Challenge doesn't have a pairs competition - not as a CS nor as a regular senior B. I do know that the Austrian pairs teams that are being coached by Ziegler & Kiefer are based in Salzburg, so perhaps there's a plan to have them go over there to train with those teams ahead of Golden Spin (presuming that the USFS does send some pairs to that).

I'd love it if the USFS would share the list of teams that are competing at the Pairs Final next week, but I fear we're going to have to wait until the results page is up to see the entry lists.

 

[Rukia]

I'd love it if the USFS would share the list of teams that are competing at the Pairs Final next week, but I fear we're going to have to wait until the results page is up to see the entry lists.

Why would USFS do anything useful like tell us who is actually competing in kind of important competitions???

 

[Karen-W]

They took a look at the state of pairs in the first 2 GP events.

No offense, but Ellie needs to prove she's capable of competing at that level. She's never competed internationally as a junior or senior either in pairs or singles. Danny's talented, no doubt, but it's an awfully big leap to think that a team that's never competed together even once, one of whom hasn't competed internationally at an elite level, are going to be competitive on the GP.

It wouldn't surprise me if the USFS allowed them to compete at the US Pairs Final since Danny is a former National champ, but they're going to have to demonstrate they're at least as good as teams like Hanns/Neudecker and Digerness/Sadusky, neither of whom have even been added to the ISP yet, despite scoring around the same as Wessenberg/Eisenach in NQS events this summer.

 

[dancing_on_ice]

Chan/Howe are pretty likely to qualify for the Grand Prix Final after they finished second at Skate Canada. Their next competition is NHK Trophy, and based on the competition, they're pretty likely to place second or third, which should be enough to guarantee a spot. That's going to be pretty crazy for them, considering this season was their first time competing on the Grand Prix circuit (2020 doesn't count for COVID).

 

[Trillian]

Why would USFS do anything useful like tell us who is actually competing in kind of important competitions???

It’s probably just because I haven’t tried very hard, but since they changed the nationals qualification structure, I’ve found it impossible to follow. USFS could be drawing names out of a hat at this point, for all I know.

Danny O'Shea's partnership with Ellie Kam was officially announced this evening (Oct 30):

I don’t love the age difference, but I wouldn’t begrudge Danny one last good competitive run, and it’ll probably be a great learning experience for Ellie.

 

[tony]

Chan/Howe are pretty likely to qualify for the Grand Prix Final after they finished second at Skate Canada. Their next competition is NHK Trophy, and based on the competition, they're pretty likely to place second or third, which should be enough to guarantee a spot. That's going to be pretty crazy for them, considering this season was their first time competing on the Grand Prix circuit (2020 doesn't count for COVID).

There are about 6 teams (besides Miura/Kihara, Knierim/Frazier, and Stellato-Dudek/Deschamps) who have the chance of winning an event, placing 2nd/2nd or 2nd/3rd, so with a 3rd they need to score high again-- it certainly won't be a guaranteed spot.

 

[TanithandBenFan]

Ice Challenge doesn't have a pairs competition - not as a CS nor as a regular senior B. I do know that the Austrian pairs teams that are being coached by Ziegler & Kiefer are based in Salzburg, so perhaps there's a plan to have them go over there to train with those teams ahead of Golden Spin (presuming that the USFS does send some pairs to that).

I'd love it if the USFS would share the list of teams that are competing at the Pairs Final next week, but I fear we're going to have to wait until the results page is up to see the entry lists.

It’s weird that it was Isabella Flores’ mom that made the comment. I don’t know why she would be in Austria.

 

[Karen-W]

Chan/Howe are pretty likely to qualify for the Grand Prix Final after they finished second at Skate Canada. Their next competition is NHK Trophy, and based on the competition, they're pretty likely to place second or third, which should be enough to guarantee a spot. That's going to be pretty crazy for them, considering this season was their first time competing on the Grand Prix circuit (2020 doesn't count for COVID).

2nd at NHK would guarantee them a spot in the GPF. 3rd at NHK would then be contingent on how the other teams in their range finish at their GPs, and would likely be dependent on having the highest combined score from both their events, if there are a couple of other teams who also have a 2nd & 3rd. There are several permutations possible...

Conti/Macii will most definitely have a 3rd & 2nd (Metelkina/Parkman are the only challengers for silver & bronze at MKJW, I think).
Safina/Berulava, Ghilardi/Ambrosini & Hocke/Kunkel are going to be battling it out for 2nd, 3rd & 4th next week. If Hocke/Kunkel come out with a bronze then they'll need to beat Chan/Howe at NHK. Safina/Berulava & Ghilardi/Ambrosini - one of them will, probably, win Espoo, but who knows how it will play out, and it's entirely possible that the team that wins silver next week finishes 3rd at Espoo, presuming Efimova/Blommaert are back to their previous form by then as they could play spoiler for some other team's GPF hopes.

It’s weird that it was Isabella Flores’ mom that made the comment. I don’t know why she would be in Austria.

Her younger daughter, Olivia, is skating pairs with Luke Wang. That's what makes me think that the WASA team might be heading over to Salzburg for some training with the new teams that Severin & Miriam are developing.