2021/2022 Canadian Men: News and Updates

The other skaters on Team Canada have have had multiple international experiences through the years and while they didn’t implode, they didn’t skate their best performances either.
There's a big difference between placing maybe one ordinal lower than optimal (which happened with Piper & Paul, and debatably with KMT & Michael, though I'd argue in the latter's case that given all the injuries they've had the past two years where they placed was about as well as was realistic for them) and a complete implosion like Roman did.
 
There's a big difference between placing maybe one ordinal lower than optimal (which happened with Piper & Paul, and debatably with KMT & Michael, though I'd argue in the latter's case that given all the injuries they've had the past two years where they placed was about as well as was realistic for them) and a complete implosion like Roman did.
But even without an implosion in the LP, Roman was unlikely to finish higher than 5th there.

At the end of the day, it was irrelevant to the team’s overall results.
 
Piper and Paul may have underperformed, but they hardly performed like Roman. There is a reason most of the negative attention is placed on him.

Regardless of placement, performance still matters. Even without a medal, people will still praise Madeline’s SP performance.
 
There's a big difference between placing maybe one ordinal lower than optimal (which happened with Piper & Paul, and debatably with KMT & Michael, though I'd argue in the latter's case that given all the injuries they've had the past two years where they placed was about as well as was realistic for them) and a complete implosion like Roman did.

Piper and Paul may have underperformed, but they hardly performed like Roman. There is a reason most of the negative attention is placed on him.
Ding ding ding! KMT/Michael and Piper/Paul could have, under slightly different circumstances, maybe placed one spot higher but, and this is especially true of KMT/Mike, they placed about as high as anyone expected, especially considering the season they've had to date. The result for Piper/Paul was surprising only because they're the reigning world bronze medalists and #3-4 (if you include PapCiz) losing to the #6-7 team in the world just doesn't happen in ice dance. But, it's not like Piper/Paul went out there and skated terribly - in fact, their RD score was higher than what they earned at IdF - it's just that GuiFab skated a bit better.

Sadovsky deserves the negative attention. He's known for at least 10 days since they left Vancouver without Keegan, that he was likely going to have to skate in the TE and possibly both segments, and he's known since the beginning of the week that Keegan wasn't going to swoop in to save the day. I'm glad I'm not Canadian because I'd have zero patience with the idea that anyone should accept that he's just such a fragile skater/competitor that he can't handle the pressure. If that's how he is, he probably shouldn't be a competitive figure skater.
 
Roman could have easily been fourth in the free given how Boyang did, and he could have been several places higher in the short program.
I agree about the short.

But even skating lights out in the long, he wasn’t finishing better than 4th.

And Canada was very unlikely to finish better than 4th at this TE which was certain after Keegan didn’t arrive on time.

So really it’s all a bit of a moot point.
 
I agree about the short.

But even skating lights out in the long, he wasn’t finishing better than 4th.

And Canada was very unlikely to finish better than 4th at this TE which was certain after Keegan didn’t arrive on time.

So really it’s all a bit of a moot point.
I wasn't expecting us to medal, but three quarters of the team put their best foot forward or else put in a solid showing, which is what I want to see from athletes on the big stage.
 
They need to pull Roman out of 2022 Worlds if he bombs the SP on Monday. I don't trust that he'll make the LP at Worlds either.

It's time to move on and invest in the new generation like Chiu and Gogolev. Have a skateoff at Jr Worlds, and let the better skater get to compete at Senior Worlds also.

Remember that Gogolev tested positive for c0vid right before Nationals, so he never had the opportunity for an Olympic team. We know Roman did beat Wesley head-to-head at Nationals, but I still wonder if Gogolev could've gotten 2nd place at Nationals had he been able to compete.
 
Except even with his competitive fragility, he still has had better results than any other Canadian Man except Messing. His PB, achieved at RC 2021, is 20+ points higher than Chiu's. Chiu's winning LP TES at Warsaw Cup 2021 was a squeak higher than Sadovsky's at RC, but his PCS were in the mid 7's vs. mid-8's from international judges. At his worst last night, vs.Chiu's best last Fall, he still scored within 2 PCS points of Chiu. He beat Chiu soundly in the FS and in total at Canadian Nationals. There was no contest for Canada #2.

If Sadovsky has any bearing on Canada's placement in the TE, it's 5th rather than 4th, and Canada would have needed other teams to skate badly to be in contention for bronze, even if Messing had skated, let alone anyone else. This isn't Worlds, where spots for next year are on the line, so even if he skates the same way in the individual event, the impact.is.on him.

Chiu is no Ilia Malinin, so I don't see any arguments: no one else was competitive with Sadovsky. He skated badly and was visibly crushed, but why should he not be a.competitive figure skater when he is.top two in his country by a long way, until someone else can beat him, or he doesn't want to skate anymore?
 
Meanwhile, no excuses for any armchair fans/commentators who declare athletes' performances inexcusable. LOL. (I canceled Sandra Bezic a long time ago for saying this from a comfy rinkside seat!) :D
Lol. I know I said that and it is harsh, but I don't really feel like it is too much to call Roman's FS inexcusable. I'm fine with giving him a pass on the SP because, no, he wasn't expecting to compete in the TE, or at least not the SP, and it was the first comp of the event. But he had two days to pick himself back up, dust it off and prepare for the FS. He fell apart even worse than the SP. It wasn't even passably okay by senior international men's standards. So, in that regard, his FS last night really is inexcusable and I won't back off from saying it.

And, FWIW, if this was Camden or Tomoki or Jimmy going out there and having the exact same performances, you can bet that US fans would be a lot less kind or forgiving of it than some of the folks in this thread, and Russians would be crucifying Mark for those kind of skates, and I'm happy to see some Canadian fans are willing to call out just how bad what Sadovsky delivered really was.
 
If I'm being honest, my reaction to Roman's performance last night (and I am one of his most devoted fans) was W!T!F! ROMAN???? It wasn't really a high pressure situation, he could have come out and skated laps for 4 minutes and still walked away 6 points. :wall::wall::wall: Then I watched his heartbreaking post skate interview with Elladj and felt like a total witch for my WTF-ing. :lol: I can't even imagine how frustrating it must be to be him. I hope he's had the opportunity to see the reactions of some of the high profile athletes like Ted-Jan Bloemen and Justine Dufour-Lapointe who have underperformed and feels less alone. But ultimately, Roman owns this. No one can crawl into his body and do it for him, he has to figure it out for himself. He has one more chance to put a better spin on his first Olympic experience, then head home to regroup for Worlds. And going into the next quad, I hope he and his team sit down and have a hard look at the changes that need to made to get more consistent results because changes do need to happen. Lance Vipond retweeted a post from Janet Jackson today that basically says it all:
The first step towards getting somewhere is to decide that you're not going to stay where you are.
 
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I have always doubted Roman's consistency on the world stage.............sadly his consistent inconsistency makes him a real risk to assign coveted team assignments.
 
I am not personally a skater but what I have heard described by some skaters sounds like the "twisties" that Simone Biles described, although definitely not as dangerous. Kurt seemed to be describing a disconnect between mind and body that happens to some skaters under pressure where it feels like you can no longer find your way from the kitchen to the living room and it is terrifying. From what Roman said, it sounds like he has been struggling with the quad and losing the feeling to land your money jump is very disturbing. The media making it sound like Canada was likely to get a medal is nuts. It was always an outside chance. He is more inconsistent due to his body type - not desire, training, etc. and Nam was chosen over Roman even though Roman beat Nam in 2020 but Nam has had his own issues this year.
 
The media making it sound like Canada was likely to get a medal is nuts. It was always an outside chance.
Sure, hardcore fans like those of us here knew this, but, heck, there were plenty of FSUers who started the TE thinking Canada in the medal hunt, so why would you expect the media, who probably only pay attention to figure skating every four years, would think anything but "of course Canada is likely to get a medal" when they ARE (for another 7 hours or so), the defending Olympic champs in the TE?

Having said that, the fact that Canada ISN'T in the medal mix, as I've said elsewhere on this board, is a problem for Canadian skating and God only knows, Skate Canada has a lot of work to do to right the rocking ship.
 
But even without an implosion in the LP, Roman was unlikely to finish higher than 5th there.

At the end of the day, it was irrelevant to the team’s overall results.

5th is a lot better than last.

Except even with his competitive fragility, he still has had better results than any other Canadian Man except Messing. His PB, achieved at RC 2021, is 20+ points higher than Chiu's. Chiu's winning LP TES at Warsaw Cup 2021 was a squeak higher than Sadovsky's at RC, but his PCS were in the mid 7's vs. mid-8's from international judges. At his worst last night, vs.Chiu's best last Fall, he still scored within 2 PCS points of Chiu. He beat Chiu soundly in the FS and in total at Canadian Nationals. There was no contest for Canada #2.

If Sadovsky has any bearing on Canada's placement in the TE, it's 5th rather than 4th, and Canada would have needed other teams to skate badly to be in contention for bronze, even if Messing had skated, let alone anyone else. This isn't Worlds, where spots for next year are on the line, so even if he skates the same way in the individual event, the impact.is.on him.

Chiu is no Ilia Malinin, so I don't see any arguments: no one else was competitive with Sadovsky. He skated badly and was visibly crushed, but why should he not be a.competitive figure skater when he is.top two in his country by a long way, until someone else can beat him, or he doesn't want to skate anymore?

Re: Chiu at Olympics over Sad, an argument would be to give him experience for 2026 where he will be 20 years old.
 
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They need to pull Roman out of 2022 Worlds if he bombs the SP on Monday. I don't trust that he'll make the LP at Worlds either.

It's time to move on and invest in the new generation like Chiu and Gogolev. Have a skateoff at Jr Worlds, and let the better skater get to compete at Senior Worlds also.

An interesting thought but I doubt Skate Canada would ever do it. Because it’s not the “nice” thing to do.

I agree with your second paragraph. This “nextgen” group of Sadovsky, Nam, Orzel, etc is more like “lost gen”. Time to move on.
 
Ugh, I would argue if he had a better SP


Re: Chiu at Olympics over Sad, an argument would be to give him experience for 2026 where he will be 20 years old.
Chiu could have made a case for himself at Nationals. It's not like Skate Canada is even wedded to their National Champion: they planned to send Nguyen to 2020 Worlds, after Sadovsky won Nationals and beat Nguyen by over 17 points.
 
Lol. I know I said that and it is harsh, but I don't really feel like it is too much to call Roman's FS inexcusable. I'm fine with giving him a pass on the SP because, no, he wasn't expecting to compete in the TE, or at least not the SP, and it was the first comp of the event. But he had two days to pick himself back up, dust it off and prepare for the FS. He fell apart even worse than the SP. It wasn't even passably okay by senior international men's standards. So, in that regard, his FS last night really is inexcusable and I won't back off from saying it.

And, FWIW, if this was Camden or Tomoki or Jimmy going out there and having the exact same performances, you can bet that US fans would be a lot less kind or forgiving of it than some of the folks in this thread, and Russians would be crucifying Mark for those kind of skates, and I'm happy to see some Canadian fans are willing to call out just how bad what Sadovsky delivered really was.

Frankly I think it’s pathetic the Canadian fans on here who insist on coddling him/babying him. I actually wonder if Tracy Wainman does it too….?

The only excuse I can think of for Sadovsky’s dismal performances at the Olympic Games so far is Russia’s impending attack on Ukraine. Sadovsky’s parents moved to Canada before he was born and I wonder if he still has relatives in Ukraine and is worried about it all.
 
I have always doubted Roman's consistency on the world stage.............sadly his consistent inconsistency makes him a real risk to assign coveted team assignments.

You are so right.
Chiu is no Ilia Malinin, so I don't see any arguments: no one else was competitive with Sadovsky. He skated badly and was visibly crushed, but why should he not be a.competitive figure skater when he is.top two in his country by a long way, until someone else can beat him, or he doesn't want to skate anymore?

By a long way? Maybe on PCS but let’s not forget that Chiu beat Sad in the SP at nationals. I don’t even think Sadovsky was top 3 after the SP but I could be wrong.

And Chiu is no Malinin on the tech side. He doesn’t have the array of quads of Malinin but I would say he’s pretty close to him, if not better, on skating skills and overall PCS.
 
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I think it's nice that at least some Canadians here are willing to get upset with Sadovsky. How he skated yesterday was inexcusable, and he didn't skate much better in the SP. Really, there isn't any justification for it and he has plenty of international experience.

You know, sometimes skaters just have bad days. They can be super prepared and confident, but once they get out there, something isn't clicking. And then it's frustrating not only to skate badly but not to know why they skated badly.

Nobody at this level goes out there thinking, whee, I'm going to blow everything and really suck.

Let's stop using words like "inexcusable". That's completely wrong in this context, and it's unfair to the skater. Who, I'm pretty sure, is feeling way worse about this than any of us are.
 
Frankly I think it’s pathetic the Canadian fans on here who insist on coddling him/babying him. I actually wonder if Tracy Wainman does it too….?

The only excuse I can think of for Sadovsky’s dismal performances at the Olympic Games so far is Russia’s impending attack on Ukraine. Sadovsky’s parents moved to Canada before he was born and I wonder if he still has relatives in Ukraine and is worried about it all.
I am no doubt one of the pathetic Canadian fans who coddles and babys Roman. i fell in love with Roman's skating to Les Mis when he was a young teenager and small. His ability to feel the music and wait patiently for it so instinctively really touched me. He had good jumps, spins and appeared destined for greatness. Huge growth happened and he struggled mightily. They describe his feet growing so fast they had to constantly buy new skates. I believe he tried a lot, including leaving his coach, and finally got a quad and the terribly hard fought for triple axel. I would never argue he is a consistent jumper or that his obvious back and forth results should not be taken into account. At the end of the day - I would argue he is a beautiful skater who makes me feel things when he is on. I want him to know I appreciate what he brings to the sport I love and just feel deeply sad for him that this great moment on Olympic ice has not been something he can feel proud of. I hope he has more success in the individual event for his own self worth.
 
Look, despite my previous post RE compassion for skaters who don’t seem to possess competitive nerves, I am, nonetheless still astounded by how poorly Roman Sadovsky skated on Olympic ice. It’s because of my own disgust / reaction to his skate yesterday that I have come back to this idea that maybe it’s just not possible for some skaters to ever gain that skill / ability - to perform under pressure despite their strengths and abilities.
Yes - there are many ways skaters and coaches can work to prepare and to improve in this area, many steps federations can take to help those skaters, but at the end of the day, isn’t it possible that a skater just isn’t capable of competing under pressure the way some skaters will never be capable of doing quads?
And, if that is the case, there is definitely an argument against sending them to compete at certain levels -but maybe not for getting angry at the skater.
Based on this season, Canada thought Roman was the best choice to secure the 2nd spot at Nebelhorn. He didn’t do what he was capable of at Nebelhorn, but he did secure the spot. He didn’t skate his best at Nationals, but he did skate better than usual and he did score high enough to convince Skate Canada to send him to the Olympics.
He has, over and over again underperformed compared to his ability as a skater - but performed fairly consistently as a competitor - as in not well. Despite that - he was deemed the best choice to send.

I remember watching Jason Brown at Skate Canada in Regina - trying quad after quad after quad with no change. It was exhausting just to watch. People rant about him not having a quad - but if that practice session / combined with completely upending his life in 2014 are ANY indication - Jason Brown’s lack of quad is not at all because of lack of effort. I’m just suggesting maybe there are skaters who are in the same boat regarding the ability to skate well under pressure.
 
And re the idea that the team event results should be a wake up call to SC - no. It's not realistic for any one country to win everything all the time. Some of Canada's most consistent and experienced skaters retired over the past four years, and this is a team with limited Olympic experience. As they say in baseball, it's a rebuilding year.
 
By a long way? Maybe on PCS but let’s not forget that Chiu beat Sad in the SP at nationals. I don’t even think Sadovsky was top 3 after the SP but I could be wrong.

And Chiu is no Malinin on the tech side. He doesn’t have the array of quads of Malinin but I would say he’s pretty close to him, if not better, on skating skills and overall PCS.
I haven't seen either of them live, so I can't compare them, but the international judges have:

JGP-Chiu
  • Courcheval #2 (199.89, 1st)
    • SP: 76.26 40.72 35.54 (1st, SS: 7.11)
    • FS: 123.63 56.05 69.58 (2nd, SS: 7.14)
  • Krasnoyarsk (217.59, 3rd)
    • SP: 76.63 40.59 36.04 (4th, SS: 7.18)
    • FS: 140.96 68.32 72.64 (3rd, 7.21)
JGP-Malinin:
  • Courcheval #1 (214.64, 1st)
    • SP: 80.07 44.50 35.57 (1st, SS: 7.18)
    • FS: 34.57 68.23 67.34 (1st, SS: 7)
  • Cup of Austria (245.35, 1st)
    • SP: 81.31 45.35 35.96 (1st, SS: 7.21)
    • FS: 164.04 88.68 75.36 (1st, SS: 7)
CS-Chiu:
  • Warsaw Cup (232.39, 4th)
    • 70.15 33.65 36.50 (11th, SS: 7.45)
    • 162.24 85.94 76.30 (1st, SS: 7.85)

CS-Malinin:
  • Ice Challenge (222.55, 3rd)
    • SP: 67.58 33.78 34.80 (13th, SS: 7.10)
    • FS: 154.97 85.77 70.20 (2nd, SS: 7.3)
In junior competition, Chiu might have had a marginal edge over Malinin in SS, but Malinin had a total edge over Chiu in PCS, but, technically-speaking, Malinin surpassed him significantly technically when comparing their early- and later-season GP's. In their only senior international of the Fall, Chiu had a distinct over Malinin, both technically and PCS-wise. Over the Fall, Malinin's high score was significantly higher than Chiu's, without the choreo sequence, and it didn't include the jumps that give Malinin a big margin to make up a point per PCS category.

Nationals PCS are always questionable, but Malinin's technical score blew out the field except for a multiple-time World Champion -- and he placed above two men who are on the Olympic team -- and Chiu was 5th in the FS with a FS (150.57) that didn't match his CS FS score (or Malinin's CS FS score). Had he even matched his Warsaw Cup score, he would have been with five points of Sadovsky in total, and he would have made a case for himself at least to go to Worlds, but also, possibly, the Olympics. But he didn't, and he's not the model for mental toughness, at least yet, nor is he a PCS prodigy.
 
Having said that, the fact that Canada ISN'T in the medal mix, as I've said elsewhere on this board, is a problem for Canadian skating and God only knows, Skate Canada has a lot of work to do to right the rocking ship.

I’m not sure what Skate Canada can do. The talent isn’t there right now and I also wonder about coaching. Another issue is they put so much emphasis and resources on that 2014-2018 group and it’s like they didn’t focus on others or who was coming up behind them.

Men and pairs are the weak links, which is interesting because historically they have been the strengths. Can you imagine where the Cdn men would be right now if Messing had not switched countries. Dismal.

I wonder if Skate Canada is seeing CanSkate numbers down. There are a lot of kids who would rather play hockey, basketball, soccer, ski etc.

There is also a coaching problem, especially for pairs. I guess Andrew Evans is doing some good stuff technically with McIntosh and Mimar but they still need so much work on basic skating, edge quality, line, stretch etc.
 
And re the idea that the team event results should be a wake up call to SC - no. It's not realistic for any one country to win everything all the time. Some of Canada's most consistent and experienced skaters retired over the past four years, and this is a team with limited Olympic experience. As they say in baseball, it's a rebuilding year.

Well I think the Russians and Americans are able to medal in the team event at every Olympics so far.
 

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