The Skating Lesson

[IceAlisa]

Oh I thought she said that because of the dance results. For sure, Pairs and Dance have to make the maximum of every of their outings. It's harder for them (especially Dance) to get the PCS up.

Which is so surprising coming from Sandra. She must know her audience will be in the know and even the casual watchers of dance would be aware of this. Le shrug.

 

[Amantide]

Oh I thought she said that because of the dance results. For sure, Pairs and Dance have to make the maximum of every of their outings. It's harder for them (especially Dance) to get the PCS up.

No, she was specifically talking about V/M and P/C when she said GPF is nothing.

She actually addressed that twice. First with V&M and P&C, when she was speaking about the performance (?), then again after, when speaking about Men. I remember the latter better though. I might need to listen the first part again. I was busy making some videos while listening to them as well.

 

[IceAlisa]

She actually addressed that twice. First with V&M and P&C, when she was speaking about the performance (?), then again after, when speaking about Men. I remember the latter better though. I might need to listen the first part again. I was busy making some videos while listening.

With the men she said that it's not important for Javi and Yuzuru to be there and it's more for the younger skaters, in the context of Yuruzu's injury and focus on the Olympics. She also said that singles skaters tend to burn out sooner in the season than pairs and dance. I was referring to the first time she mentioned GPF wrt dance.

 

[Amantide]

With the men she said that it's not important for Javi and Yuzuru to be there and it's more for the younger skaters, in the context of Yuruzu's injury and focus on the Olympics. She also said that singles skaters tend to burn out sooner in the season than pairs and dance.

Yep. That's right.

 

[Anyasnake]

Which is so surprising coming from Sandra. She must know her audience will be in the know and even the casual watchers of dance would be aware of this. Le shrug.

Yes, I was surprised at that comment. You can't show up in Korea and hope your step sequences are going to be level 4.

On the other hand I get all the political stuff that they're talking about because it has always existed (even if it's harder to cheat now)... But I feel like for TSL there is nothing BUT that. That they acknowledge/like a program, it's their opinion and I couldn't care less.
But to be blind and just see drama written everywhere, everytime has me more than surprised. Sometimes the actual competition matters. It did this weekend in Dance, especially with the US teams (who in the end were correctly judged I think).
And they are adding to the fire here, because it takes away from a skater to just talk about politics when they actually skated well.

 

[IceAlisa]

She is contradicting herself. She wants all the quads and she wants all the freedom to perform. You can't have both. Nathan was just saying in the interview to Elena Vaitsekhovskaya how to do one quad, you need one set of skills which you have to throw out immediately after it's done and get ready for a whole other set of skills, both mental and physical to do another kind of quad. It's hard not only physically but also mentally and doesn't leave a lot of freedom OR TIME to perform. Which is why current men's FS are just surviving from one quad to another. What gives?

 

[MAXSwagg]

There is no reason to penalize a fall twice, in TES AND in PCS. This is exactly the problem. A clean performance that's robotic and uninspired automatically gets PCS inflation which was not the purpose of PCS, but the opposite.

Falls aren’t really penalized. Wow, you lose at most 5 points. Big whoop, when your technical score is 110. Sorry. Technical mistakes are equivalent to performance mistakes. The program is a PERFORMANCE. If it’s uninspired and robotic, that should be reflected in interpretation as well. Grade the marks. This is why component marks range from 0.25 to 10, not 7 to 10 like the judges seem to believe.

 

[IceAlisa]

Falls aren’t really penalized. Wow, you lose at most 5 points. Big whoop.

Yup, it is exactly that—a very big whoop when 5 points could mean a medal, the color of the medal or no medal. What punishment do you want for a fall, a life sentence?

 

[skatingguy]

Just a comment on what Bezic said about the GPF. She was saying that the GPF is not what is going to matter a year from now. It might be important to the competition at the Olympics, but nobody is going to right books about how great it was that Papadakis/Cizeron won the Grand Prix Final and glorify that accomplishment. It may be important to remember that in 2009 it was Davis/White that won the GPF and Virtue/Moir won the Olympics, it also may be important that Papadakis/Cizeron won the only competition that they have against Virtue/Moir in the lead to the Olympics. We will now around Feb. 18/19/20 of next year.

 

[barbarafan]

Is the drama they discuss all P/C vs V/M or are they also talking about the U.S. teams?

Kind of shocked that Sandra Bezic would agree to be on TSL. Then again, how much is she involved with the elite skating world at the moment?

I am assuming here that Sandra Bezic (who does the choreo.along with David W.for I/M's long programs)in some way made contact with Mr.Lease after his atrocious spewing of drivel on last day of Cdn nationals in January. Sandra is highly respected worldwide and very much so in the US. So is Julie Marcotte, He did not watch nationals but one of his boyfriends (a non skater)did so his info came from someone with connections in Quebec as the worst of what he said had to do about Julie Marcotte and what a terrible Choreo.she was & how the teams were forced to use her. Anyways the section was mostly about what horrible pairs I/M were and that Sandra was unfair giving them choreo which (in his or his source's words)masked their complete lack of chemistry..at which point Jonathan interrupted him and said "but isn't that what a choreographer supposed to do?". He finished with he hoped they added more jumps & then Skate Canada were mark them really low and they would be gone. I stopped watching his youtubes after that until very recently I watched one which someone had referenced in FSU and he said...when he was talking to Sandra the other day & he mentioned I/M in a professional manner so I was perplexed and went back to watch the infamous cdn national show and it has been edited and most of his discussion about I/M is now gone...If she is now on his show it would seem they worked things out.

 

[Areski]

I am assuming here that Sandra Bezic (who does the choreo.along with David W.for I/M's long programs)in some way made contact with Mr.Lease after his atrocious spewing of drivel on last day of Cdn nationals in January. Sandra is highly respected worldwide and very much so in the US. So is Julie Marcotte, He did not watch nationals but one of his boyfriends (a non skater)did so his info came from someone with connections in Quebec as the worst of what he said had to do about Julie Marcotte and what a terrible Choreo.she was & how the teams were forced to use her. Anyways the section was mostly about what horrible pairs I/M were and that Sandra was unfair giving them choreo which (in his or his source's words)masked their complete lack of chemistry..at which point Jonathan interrupted him and said "but isn't that what a choreographer supposed to do?". He finished with he hoped they added more jumps & then Skate Canada were mark them really low and they would be gone. I stopped watching his youtubes after that until very recently I watched one which someone had referenced in FSU and he said...when he was talking to Sandra the other day & he mentioned I/M in a professional manner so I was perplexed and went back to watch the infamous cdn national show and it has been edited and most of his discussion about I/M is now gone...If she is now on his show it would seem they worked things out.

But does Sandra even know that they were blabbering about her? I mean ... who cares or listen to their 1,5 hour long chatter? Ok, I consider that possibility that she knows about it from other source but still.

 

[barbarafan]

But does Sandra even know that they were blabbering about her?

I doubt she watched TSL but I am sure she heard about it . As well the nonsense about Julie Marcotte would have gone over like a lead balloon. The fact that he now watches what he says with respect to I/M & he removed the worst part of his ramblings as well as the fact that they talk on the phone & she agreed to come on the show points to there having been repercussions to what he did. Hopefully it also taught him be careful with his sources and if they might have motives for feeding him horsesh**it.

 

[giselle23]

Is the drama they discuss all P/C vs V/M or are they also talking about the U.S. teams?

Kind of shocked that Sandra Bezic would agree to be on TSL. Then again, how much is she involved with the elite skating world at the moment?

Dave and Jenny interviewed Sandra a few years ago. It was one of their better interviews. This one was pretty good, too. Dave was more restrained and less gossipy (though he did have his moments). Sandra is very diplomatic but it is clear she doesn't like the judging system (and neither do I). I hope some changes are made after the Olympics. I would get rid of the 10% bonus altogether and stop rewarding 'tanos as part of TES. Excessive front-loading should result in lower PCS and a well-placed 'tano (like in a ballet) should improve the presentation score. The ISU and the rest of the sporting world need to accept that there is an artistic element to skating and that it is subjective. Attempts to quantify it through PCS scoring haven't worked.

 

[Maximillian]

I admit I refuse to watch TSL anymore because I don't want to encourage them...however, they did do interviews well, at least when it was Dave and Jenny. I think the last one I watched was their interview with Fratianne, which was with Jonathon. I always get the impression with Sandra B that since the implementation of IJS she'd prefer to spend her time in her house which is right out of a Nancy Meyers movie, sipping Pinot Grigio and shopping Ann Taylor on line.

 

[MAXSwagg]

Yup, it is exactly that—a very big whoop when 5 points could mean a medal, the color of the medal or no medal. What punishment do you want for a fall, a life sentence?

Statements based on your dramatics and not based in facts. But is typical for you.

 

[gkelly]

Falls aren’t really penalized. Wow, you lose at most 5 points. Big whoop, when your technical score is 110. Sorry. Technical mistakes are equivalent to performance mistakes. The program is a PERFORMANCE. If it’s uninspired and robotic, that should be reflected in interpretation as well. Grade the marks. This is why component marks range from 0.25 to 10, not 7 to 10 like the judges seem to believe.

Yes, but don't forget that judges don't only watch elite skating. They have to sit through a lot of bad and mediocre skating that fans don't bother with. The range of component marks from 0.25 to 10 covers all that bad skating as well as the average and good and outstanding world-class skating.

I think of 5.0 as average senior level. Which is why you see a lot of 5s at national competitions or senior B events.

In comparison to average seniors, almost all the skaters who make it to the Grand Prix, let alone the Grand Prix Final, are pretty darn good. Even if they fall once or twice during a program.

 

[IceAlisa]

Statements based on your dramatics and not based in facts. But is typical for you.

It's called sarcasm, darling

 

[jenniferlyon]

Yes, but don't forget that judges don't only watch elite skating. They have to sit through a lot of bad and mediocre skating that fans don't bother with.

When I went to Worlds in Boston, a lot of people didn't bother to watch the lower two flights of ladies, and these skaters aren't bad or mediocre. I mean, they're good enough to make it to Worlds! But some people still didn't watch them. I did, though. I like to see everybody.

 

[skateboy]

Yes, but don't forget that judges don't only watch elite skating. They have to sit through a lot of bad and mediocre skating that fans don't bother with. The range of component marks from 0.25 to 10 covers all that bad skating as well as the average and good and outstanding world-class skating.

This.

Many fans don't seem to understand that the system is designed to evaluate all (or most) levels of skating. It took me awhile to realize it myself. So, at a world class level, there is a pretty substantial difference between a score of, say, 8.50 and 9.00.

 

[MAXSwagg]

This.

Many fans don't seem to understand that the system is designed to evaluate all (or most) levels of skating. It took me awhile to realize it myself. So, at a world class level, there is a pretty substantial difference between a score of, say, 8.50 and 9.00.

I understand it. I just don't agree with it. It makes the program components score pointless because there is no substantial difference between 85 and 90, even though the difference the actual skills of those two skaters in that "elite" group out of the entire world of competitive figure skating is greater than that difference.

 

[Anyasnake]

I understand it. I just don't agree with it. It makes the program components score pointless because there is no substantial difference between 85 and 90, even though the difference the actual skills of those two skaters in that "elite" group out of the entire world of competitive figure skating is greater than that difference.

For the next season they want to extend GOEs (-5 to +5). Perhaps do the same with PCS ? Because PCS will matter even less if we change the GOEs and not the rest.

 

[bardtoob]

For the next season they want to extend GOEs (-5 to +5). Perhaps do the same with PCS ? Because PCS will matter even less if we change the GOEs and not the rest.

They could just change the factor multiplier for the PCS.

If you wonder what I mean, look at the lower left of an individual skaters protocols on these GPF Protocol Sheets:

Men SP: PCS Factor 1.00
Men LP: PCS Factor 2.00

Ladies SP: PCS Factor 0.80
Ladies LP: PCS Factor 1.60

Pairs SP: PCS Factor 0.80
Pairs LP: PCS Factor 1.60

Short Dance: PCS Factor 0.80
Free Dance: PCS Factor 1.20

 

[Anyasnake]

They could just change the factor multiplier for the PCS.

If you wonder what I mean, look at the lower left of an individual skaters protocols on these GPF Protocol Sheets:

Yes you're right actually, I forgot about the factor. That would be a good idea to increase it then.

 

[Willin]

I understand it's also used to evaluate lower-level skaters, but that doesn't mean that all top seniors deserve 8+ on everything. Ashley's skating skills aren't "world class" - maybe more a 6 or a 7. Same with Zagitova - who hardly uses her edges at all (I have NO idea how her turns get called for the step sequence levels with edges that shallow). And somehow, some way judges are giving Mirai 7s for composition and transitions - heck, some judges are giving her over 8.

For skating skills, I think of it this way: 10 is textbook. 10 is V/M, D/W, P/C - very top ice dance teams. No singles skaters are quite as good as an ice dance team because they don't have to do edges that deep or gain that much speed through turns as dance teams need to do. So mid-9s is around where the singles skaters with the best skating skills are. Mid-8s have great skating skills, but not outstanding. Mid-7s is good, and mid-6s are for the skaters who are succeeding in Senior despite their skating skills, not because of them.

 

[Areski]

I understand it's also used to evaluate lower-level skaters, but that doesn't mean that all top seniors deserve 8+ on everything. Ashley's skating skills aren't "world class" - maybe more a 6 or a 7. Same with Zagitova - who hardly uses her edges at all (I have NO idea how her turns get called for the step sequence levels with edges that shallow). And somehow, some way judges are giving Mirai 7s for composition and transitions - heck, some judges are giving her over 8.

For skating skills, I think of it this way: 10 is textbook. 10 is V/M, D/W, P/C - very top ice dance teams. No singles skaters are quite as good as an ice dance team because they don't have to do edges that deep or gain that much speed through turns as dance teams need to do. So mid-9s is around where the singles skaters with the best skating skills are. Mid-8s have great skating skills, but not outstanding. Mid-7s is good, and mid-6s are for the skaters who are succeeding in Senior despite their skating skills, not because of them.

Ice Dance skaters use slightly different skates than singles / pairs skaters so maybe it's not super comparable.

 

[Willin]

@Areski I understand that (I've used both freestyle and dance skates). But, since I've used both kinds of skates I can tell you that you can still do deep edges, extension, gaining speed, etc. on both.

The only real difference is that dance skates/blades are that dance blades make turns and spins easier and that the back is lower so that you can point your toes better. Dance blades have a shorter tail end so that you or your partner don't step on it during the nice, tight footwork you're doing and no bottom toepick. So I forgive the difference in toe point - some of those freestyle skates are impossible to point your toes in. But it's no excuse for having no edges, not gaining speed well, having no/poor extension, toe-pushing, and scratchiness in their skating. Admittedly, having no bottom toepick is an advantage in no scratchiness, but if you have good skating skills you'll be putting your weight on the middle/back of your blade while skating, preventing scratchiness even if you have that extra toepick.

 

[Areski]

@Areski I understand that (I've used both freestyle and dance skates). But, since I've used both kinds of skates I can tell you that you can still do deep edges, extension, gaining speed, etc. on both.

The only real difference is that dance skates/blades are that dance blades make turns and spins easier and that the back is lower so that you can point your toes better. Dance blades have a shorter tail end so that you or your partner don't step on it during the nice, tight footwork you're doing and no bottom toepick. So I forgive the difference in toe point - some of those freestyle skates are impossible to point your toes in. But it's no excuse for having no edges, not gaining speed well, having no/poor extension, toe-pushing, and scratchiness in their skating. Admittedly, having no bottom toepick is an advantage in no scratchiness, but if you have good skating skills you'll be putting your weight on the middle/back of your blade while skating, preventing scratchiness even if you have that extra toepick.

Obviously it can't serve as an excuse, I just wanted to point out this little difference that many people are not aware of (I did not even mean you in particular)

 

[sap5]

@Areski I understand that (I've used both freestyle and dance skates). But, since I've used both kinds of skates I can tell you that you can still do deep edges, extension, gaining speed, etc. on both.

The only real difference is that dance skates/blades are that dance blades make turns and spins easier and that the back is lower so that you can point your toes better. Dance blades have a shorter tail end so that you or your partner don't step on it during the nice, tight footwork you're doing and no bottom toepick. So I forgive the difference in toe point - some of those freestyle skates are impossible to point your toes in. But it's no excuse for having no edges, not gaining speed well, having no/poor extension, toe-pushing, and scratchiness in their skating. Admittedly, having no bottom toepick is an advantage in no scratchiness, but if you have good skating skills you'll be putting your weight on the middle/back of your blade while skating, preventing scratchiness even if you have that extra toepick.

Gordeeva/Grinkov and Kurt Browning are good examples of this, imo.

 

[Loves_Shizuka]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxg7SZbXEr4&t=1s

Part Two of Linda Fratianne.

it is strange that part 2 of the Linda Fratianne interview never got posted,

I am also waiting for the Linda Fratianne Part 2 interview.

I wonder if he'll ever make available Part 2 of his interview with Linda Fratianne?

 

[skatfan]

Found this tonight but will have to finish later.so far it’s pretty good!