US Figure Skating Music Policy

[Theoreticalgirl]

Does ClicknClear or Songview even have much of the well-known classical repertoire, my brief glimpse at these sites suggested that they did not.

The majority of classical works are in the public domain. HOWEVER: specific recorded performances of those compositions may be copyrighted themselves, and you would need to credit the particular recorded work itself.

 

[EdgyIceMarks]

The majority of classical works are in the public domain. HOWEVER: specific recorded performances of those compositions may be copyrighted themselves, and you would need to credit the particular recorded work itself.

Would this include most of the recorded performances of these pieces from the late 1950s?

 

[her grace]

Maybe more skaters will go the Dolensky route and compose their own music.

 

[Theoreticalgirl]

Would this include most of the recorded performances of these pieces from the late 1950s?

It depends on the work itself. I would recommend looking at copyright.gov for info about copyright duration.

It is important to remember that copyright and licensing are not the same thing, but they are connected to each other.

Just because a work is copyrighted doesn't mean it's licensed—the licensing is what matters to USFS.

 

[skatfan]

Gymnastics FloorEx used to be so gorgeous and peaceful when played by pianists. I recently watched the opposite: Jordan Chiles in a crazy-colored and wild leotard that mimicked a costume by Beyoncé…to Beyoncé music. Total embarrassment, imo.

And yet women’s gymnastics have full events for both elite and NCAA and a way younger demographic in their fans. I wonder why?

 

[Simone411]

How have the copyright issues about the music been handled up until now?
(especially in the world of figure skating where the music often gets edited?)

According to this article, Alexis Knierim and Brandon Frazier had to settle with the musicians. The musicians said they had skated to one of their songs at the Olympics without their permission.

https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/olympic-skaters-nbc-settle-with-musicians-over-song-use-2022-07-22/

That's exactly what happened to me when I had the YouTube Channel. I received a copyright warning because of the music that was used in an interview with Michelle, Tara, Elvis and Todd that I had uploaded from one of my VHS tapes. YouTube deleted the video and said something about having to go to 'copyright school' in order to have access to my channel again. YouTube also warned that they would delete my channel if there was another copyright violated regarding music that was used by a skater.

I didn't want another violation, so I deleted my YouTube channel. It was worth it to me to not have another violation against me.

My book was only copyrighted so long by the publishing company I used. When that expired, I was given back all rights to my poems and lyrics that was included in the book.

I also had a copyright from the Library of Congress for my poems and lyrics way before I ever got my book published. I had the poems and lyrics copyrighted as a collection. Therefore, my poems and lyrics are still protected. I had written lyrics for a friend of mine that had a band. My friend also used a couple of my poems. I had given her permission to use them, and we both agreed at that time that I should get everything copyrighted. I mailed the Library of Congress for a form to fill out. I mailed the form back to them after I filled it out along with my collection of poems and lyrics. I received the Copyright in the mail about three weeks later.

 

[purple skates]

I feel like most reasonable people are fine with there being a clearance process and a way to make sure artists are getting the correct credit and compensation for their work. The problem is completely in how and when usfs has rolled this out and also with the blanket ban on streaming and posting up programs with music. But there are definitely people who are panicking because they are supposed to compete this weekend and they are having to try and navigate this on top of everything else with very little actual instruction on how to do it.

This.

Plus, I already paid for the music. As a skater, I am not making any money by using the music. In fact, I am paying a whole lot of money for the pleasure of using a small portion of the music. USFS should be paying any necessary royalties, IMO, and not pushing this back on their membership.

 

[BaileyCatts]

I've read this thread 3 times and I'm chalking this up to being loopy on cold meds .. but I don't understand. Does 'no streaming' mean that unless you watch a comp Live at the time it takes place, you just can never see it? So if I don't watch NHK from 2a-6a my time, I just never see it? We will still be able to watch all the comps at least online like we do now, right? I come home from work and watch the ISU feed later that night, that will still work, right?

Also means that you won't be able to just watch a bunch of single videos of skates on You Tube like you can now?

 

[overedge]

I feel like most reasonable people are fine with there being a clearance process and a way to make sure artists are getting the correct credit and compensation for their work. The problem is completely in how and when usfs has rolled this out and also with the blanket ban on streaming and posting up programs with music. But there are definitely people who are panicking because they are supposed to compete this weekend and they are having to try and navigate this on top of everything else with very little actual instruction on how to do it.

^^This, and thanks to everyone who clarified the wording in the statement and/or posted the actual statement. Also @Theoreticalgirl is right that Songview is a service to help find the composer/publisher of a piece of music. If music isn't listed there, that doesn't mean it's not licensable.

ETA: Also, regarding YouTube, YouTube has some sort of algorithm that scans posts for music, and pays royalties to artists for the use of their music, with the money coming out out of YouTube ad revenues. However, artists also have the right to ban unauthorized or unlicensed use of their music in YouTube videos, and to request that a video be taken down if they don't approve of how their music is used. The Beatles (TM) publishers are very vigilant about this.

 

[Karen-W]

I've read this thread 3 times and I'm chalking this up to being loopy on cold meds .. but I don't understand. Does 'no streaming' mean that unless you watch a comp Live at the time it takes place, you just can never see it? So if I don't watch NHK from 2a-6a my time, I just never see it? We will still be able to watch all the comps at least online like we do now, right? I come home from work and watch the ISU feed later that night, that will still work, right?

Also means that you won't be able to just watch a bunch of single videos of skates on You Tube like you can now?

This is strictly for USFS-sanctioned domestic events that are not streamed on Peacock.

No event/competition organizer for events like Glacier Falls Summer Classic or Lake Placid Ice Dance International, etc will be allowed to stream the competition and no event videographer will be allowed to sell videos of individual competitors to anyone.

I'm not sure how the USFS thinks they can prevent skaters/parents/fans from taking videos with sound and posting them on social media/video platforms. All they're really doing here is CYAing to say "we have prohibited it, therefore we're not legally liable" if some artist wants to pursue a copyright infringement against someone who does post something on YT.

 

[Capt. DeSoto]

USFS should be paying any necessary royalties, IMO, and not pushing this back on their membership.

Anything the USFS pays for is pushed onto their membership by virtue of it being a membership-funded organization. But I agree, it's too much headache for parents and coaches. In my opinion, USFS should just pay a blanket license -- even though it would obviously need to recoup those costs via increased membership and competition fees.

 

[overedge]

Anything the USFS pays for is pushed onto their membership by virtue of it being a membership-funded organization. But I agree, it's too much headache for parents and coaches. In my opinion, USFS should just pay a blanket license -- even though it would obviously need to recoup those costs via increased membership and competition fees.

Or it could find savings somewhere else in its budget to cover the cost of the blanket license.

 

[gkelly]

Or it could find savings somewhere else in its budget to cover the cost of the blanket license.

Should they cut services to members? To fans?

 

[overedge]

Should they cut services to members? To fans?

They could cut staff or look for efficiencies there. I don't think we're talking about millions of dollars for these kinds of fees, at least according to this overview: https://cloudcovermusic.com/music-licensing-guide/music-license-cost-guide

 

[Debbie S]

Should they cut services to members? To fans?

(Are they providing services to fans?)

I attended (virtual) GC but I admit I didn't scrutinize the USFS budget. But I did listen as they said attracting new fans to the sport was a priority. I realize that watching Juvenile Pairs at Sectionals/Final isn't going to draw in a bunch of fans, but given what's been happening with Peacock replays the past few seasons, this edict doesn't give me hope that we'll have more elite skating programs online and eligible to go viral.

Restricting event videography and forcing skaters and coaches to jump through hoops isn't going to help keep participants in the sport, at least not competing, and comps are currently big fundraisers for clubs. Clubs also usually get a portion of vendor fees...putting videographers out of business, aside from the obvious bad consequences for them, will also hurt clubs hosting comps. Not being able to record or stream club shows may hurt clubs' ability to attract and engage potential members. There are a lot of ripple effects.

Bottom line: USFS needs to embrace streaming and online sharing, not work against it. Attracting new fans and participants requires an investment. When creating its budget, USFS needs to prioritize and shift allocations to reflect its priorities. IMO, USFS (and the ISU) don't understand how to promote the sport.

 

[leafygreens]

According to this article, Alexis Knierim and Brandon Frazier had to settle with the musicians. The musicians said they had skated to one of their songs at the Olympics without their permission.

https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/olympic-skaters-nbc-settle-with-musicians-over-song-use-2022-07-22/

It hasn't been confirmed if US Figure Skating's new policy has anything to do with Knierim/Frazier's situation. Just to compare, cheerleading was forced into copyright compliance several years before K/F's incident. It is not surprising that ligation attorneys have frightened another organization into compliance by threatening their membership.

The way USFSA went about it was wrong. Telling their membership in essence, "You've been thieves this whole time and now you have to pay" is quite heartless. No wonder participation is plummeting from skaters, coaches and judges. As someone else mentioned, people don't have a problem if you have reasonable solutions but not if you make them feel like a criminal for participating.

From what I understand they could have purchased a more comprehensive license. They didn't and instead are dumping it on their membership and right as people are competing in the near future. They could have also provided advance warning. They didn't. On top of this, the email only went to coaches, not skaters, so now you have a fear and panic situation with the skaters not even being talked to directly. Hey, we have this webinar coming up but if you're competing this weekend the policy is effective immediately.

What is even scarier than the perceived consequences of alleged noncompliance from BMI/ASCAP, is the K/F lawsuit simply appears to be, not that a license wasn't purchased, but that the band just didn't like that their music was used. The arena and broadcaster should have already had a license to air music which should have covered the band's licensing. If the music had already been licensed, then you are looking at  another form of litigation where even if a license exists, you need another level of express permission directly from the musician. Who is going to bother with this? Skaters may avoid skating to any routine that requires music. I expect an increase in compulsory, moves or even figures competitions just to avoid the hassle.

 

[Debbie S]

It hasn't been confirmed if US Figure Skating's new policy has anything to do with Knierim/Frazier's situation. Just to compare, cheerleading was forced into copyright compliance several years before K/F's incident. It is not surprising that ligation attorneys have frightened another organization into compliance by threatening their membership.

The way USFSA went about it was wrong. Telling their membership in essence, "You've been thieves this whole time and now you have to pay" is quite heartless. No wonder participation is plummeting from skaters, coaches and judges. As someone else mentioned, people don't have a problem if you have reasonable solutions but not if you make them feel like a criminal for participating.

From what I understand they could have purchased a more comprehensive license. They didn't and instead are dumping it on their membership and right as people are competing in the near future. They could have also provided advance warning. They didn't. On top of this, the email only went to coaches, not skaters, so now you have a fear and panic situation with the skaters not even being talked to directly. Hey, we have this webinar coming up but if you're competing this weekend the policy is effective immediately.

What is even scarier than the perceived consequences of alleged noncompliance from BMI/ASCAP, is the K/F lawsuit simply appears to be, not that a license wasn't purchased, but that the band just didn't like that their music was used. The arena and broadcaster should have already had a license to air music which should have covered the band's licensing. If the music had already been licensed, then you are looking at  another form of litigation where even if a license exists, you need another level of express permission directly from the musician. Who is going to bother with this? Skaters may avoid skating to any routine that requires music. I expect an increase in compulsory, moves or even figures competitions just to avoid the hassle.

I remember reading at the time that the artist whose music K/F used did not sign on to the blanket ASCAP/BMI licensing agreement. So that gave them the right to sue and collect damages whenever their music was used (by people/orgs who assumed they were part of the blanket agreement). As the article Simone posted upthread indicates, the group has sued others.

 

[YukiNieve]

Or it could find savings somewhere else in its budget to cover the cost of the blanket license.

In one of the TSL interviews in which Maya Bagriantseva talked about ISU congress, she mentioned that ISU is raising money on the stock market. They do not raise money by holding competitions. I know quite a few organizations raise money this way. Can the USFS change the by-laws or the structure to do something similar? (I just don't know).

​

 

[BittyBug]

@Debbie S I wish I could like your post more than once because you nailed it. US Figure Skating in an organization entirely devoid of vision.

It hasn't been confirmed if US Figure Skating's new policy has anything to do with Knierim/Frazier's situation.

No, but if not for the lawsuit, given US Figure Skating's adversity to change and adaptation, it defies belief to think that they would have pro-actively implemented such a policy.

What is even scarier than the perceived consequences of alleged noncompliance from BMI/ASCAP, is the K/F lawsuit simply appears to be, not that a license wasn't purchased, but that the band just didn't like that their music was used. The arena and broadcaster should have already had a license to air music which should have covered the band's licensing. If the music had already been licensed, then you are looking at  another form of litigation where even if a license exists, you need another level of express permission directly from the musician. Who is going to bother with this? Skaters may avoid skating to any routine that requires music. I expect an increase in compulsory, moves or even figures competitions just to avoid the hassle.

I'm not sure how you're reaching this conclusion from the article posted or from any of the previous articles about the situation. From the article:

U.S. figure skaters Alexa Knierim and Brandon Frazier have settled a lawsuit brought by musicians who said the pair skated to one of their songs at the Olympics without permission, according to a Thursday filing in California federal court.

From prior articles, I seem to recall that the artists in question do not participate in any of the blanket licensing organizations - any use of their music must be authorized directly by the group (whose brother is the attorney behind all of their litigation). Assuming my recollection is correct, the new policy being implemented by US Figure Skating, terrible rollout notwithstanding, would in fact prevent future lawsuits because if the piece is not part of a blanket license, the skater will not be able to use it.

 

[overedge]

In one of the TSL interviews in which Maya Bagriantseva talked about ISU congress, she mentioned that ISU is raising money on the stock market. They do not raise money by holding competitions. I know quite a few organizations raise money this way. Can the USFS change the by-laws or the structure to do something similar? (I just don't know).

​

Someone more familiar with USFS' financial operations might know more about this, but according to the most recent audited financial statements (https://www.usfigureskating.org/sites/default/files/media-files/2022-23 Financial Audit Report.pdf) USFS does get income from investments. There is an "investment income" line item under "revenue" on page 4 of the linked document.

 

[leafygreens]

I remember reading at the time that the artist whose music K/F used did not sign on to the blanket ASCAP/BMI licensing agreement. So that gave them the right to sue and collect damages whenever their music was used (by people/orgs who assumed they were part of the blanket agreement). As the article Simone posted upthread indicates, the group has sued others.

It's the situation I described above. Each skater will be responsible for being part time music license researchers and obtaining direct permission from the artist. How many local skaters will bother with this? My guess is not many.

 

[Karen-W]

With this new policy, what would prevent an event organizer or a rink itself from purchasing a blanket license that would allow for streaming & videographers selling copies afterward? Is the USFS saying that they will not sanction any club competitions that want to pursue a blanket license independent of the USFS?

 

[Debbie S]

It's the situation I described above. Each skater will be responsible for being part time music license researchers and obtaining direct permission from the artist. How many local skaters will bother with this? My guess is not many.

No, see BittyBug's post. If their music is listed in the database, then it's covered, they don't have to ask permission. If it's not in the database, they can't use it.

 

[Debbie S]

With this new policy, what would prevent an event organizer or a rink itself from purchasing a blanket license that would allow for streaming & videographers selling copies afterward? Is the USFS saying that they will not sanction any club competitions that want to pursue a blanket license independent of the USFS?

I assume the cost would be prohibitive. Clubs don't pay videographers for recordings or live streaming, the videographers make their money from selling the videos to skaters and clubs receive a small percentage of their profit. Clubs run comps to make money, not provide broadcasting services.

 

[overedge]

It's the situation I described above. Each skater will be responsible for being part time music license researchers and obtaining direct permission from the artist. How many local skaters will bother with this? My guess is not many.

This is true, but only if they choose to use non-licensed music. Most of the music that would be under consideration is probably already licensed, and it's pretty straightforward and quick to search online whether a song is licensed (on the sites that USFS listed in its information document).

 

[YukiNieve]

Someone more familiar with USFS' financial operations might know more about this, but according to the most recent audited financial statements (https://www.usfigureskating.org/sites/default/files/media-files/2022-23 Financial Audit Report.pdf) USFS does get income from investments. There is an "investment income" line item under "revenue" on page 4 of the linked document.

Thanks！　So they need to hire more skilled investors.

 

[BittyBug]

Someone more familiar with USFS' financial operations might know more about this, but according to the most recent audited financial statements (https://www.usfigureskating.org/sites/default/files/media-files/2022-23 Financial Audit Report.pdf) USFS does get income from investments. There is an "investment income" line item under "revenue" on page 4 of the linked document.

The investment income that US Figure Skating derives is from its endowment funds. @YukiNieve said that "ISU is raising money on the stock market." That sounds to me like they are seeking investors in some way - i.e., selling a piece of the ISU to other owners in some manner.

Depending on the ISU's financial condition, they could probably sell a portion of their future income for money now, but that would essentially be selling out their future, so I'm not sure why they would do that. More likely would be some sort of partnership with a marketing organization, sort of like US Figure Skating used to have with IceNetwork, which was owned by Major League Baseball. But keep in mind that the ISU is global and also includes speed skating, so they have a much broader reach.

 

[ice coverage]

They could cut staff or look for efficiencies there. ...

Just want to note that USFS already has eliminated at least 10% of staff positions.
It's easy to say, "They could cut staff" -- but real people already have lost jobs.

 

[gkelly]

The way USFSA went about it was wrong. Telling their membership in essence, "You've been thieves this whole time and now you have to pay" is quite heartless. No wonder participation is plummeting from skaters, coaches and judges.

If this policy was just issued this week, it wouldn't have had any effect on participation "plummeting" before this week. It might have that effect in the future.

Do you have stats on the participation numbers?

I was just discussing this with an accountant a couple of weeks ago -- participation by skaters seems to have increased back to pre-pandemic levels or higher, but there has indeed been a loss of officials (judges, tech panel members, accountants and technical accountants, announcers, music coordinators), and USFS is working hard to streamline the process to get more officials on board more efficiently.

I can't speak to coach numbers.

Participation in standard-track singles events has indeed declined since 20 years ago -- because many of the skaters who would have gone to regionals to finish near the bottom in those events have chosen instead to focus on Excel track singles or on Solo Dance, Synchronized Skating, Showcase, Theatre on Ice, etc.

From what I understand they could have purchased a more comprehensive license.

At a significantly higher cost, if I understand correctly.

They didn't and instead are dumping it on their membership and right as people are competing in the near future. They could have also provided advance warning. They didn't.

That is indeed a problem.

What is even scarier than the perceived consequences of alleged noncompliance from BMI/ASCAP, is the K/F lawsuit simply appears to be, not that a license wasn't purchased, but that the band just didn't like that their music was used. The arena and broadcaster should have already had a license to air music which should have covered the band's licensing.

My understanding was that that particular band had chosen to license their music independently rather than to participate in ASCAP or BMI licensing.

 

[Simone411]

I remember reading at the time that the artist whose music K/F used did not sign on to the blanket ASCAP/BMI licensing agreement. So that gave them the right to sue and collect damages whenever their music was used (by people/orgs who assumed they were part of the blanket agreement). As the article Simone posted upthread indicates, the group has sued others.had this

Absolutely, and they definitely have. If I were a skater whether single, pairs or dance, I would definitely make sure the music being used had the blanket ASCAP/BMI licensing agreement. The skaters need to double check, read between the lines, whatever it takes to make sure they're not using music where someone may sue over it.

I know that writing or being an author isn't exactly the same thing, but when it comes to writing poems and lyrics, there have been times when someone used said lyrics, etc. and claimed the music, lyrics, etc. were theirs. That is why it is important to have that copyright, etc. It's a different story if someone contacting asking to use some of my poems as examples or for a project they were working on. I'd give the person permission. But trying to claim it was their work would be a dumb thing, especially if the author or writer had a copyright like I do.