US Figure Skating Music Policy

Back to music....my club president attended the USFS webinar Monday night. Questions had to be submitted in advance and then were answered during the presentation. One was about streaming club comps...USFS said they may purchase a license that covers streaming but essentially said members would have to help cover costs. So I assume if USFS does purchase a streaming license, member dues will go up.

This is a complex issue, so I can see questions being submitted in advance so that USFS can prepare good answers (and hopefully eliminate duplicate questions). But I hope that USFS didn't use this as a tactic to deflect questions like "why wasn't there more advance notice of this change".
 
I would think that the fairer cost allocation would be to competition fees, not to all members at large.
Theoretically, yes. But what would happen is that clubs would be asked to pay a fee to stream their comp, which most wouldn't do (comps are a fundraiser for clubs, it doesn't benefit the club to have the comp streamed) so USFS wouldn't recoup the cost.

Obviously everything costs money. But as I wrote upthread, if growing participation and fandom is a priority, USFS needs to prioritize promoting the sport, which means being able to have performances streamed and/or posted online for more than 24 hours. But USFS has a long tradition of passing everything on to members.
 
I don't mind vocal or non vocal music per se; it is more the individual piece of music.

Skaters should avoid music with the word "FALL" in it.......
Ha! I was at a Kristi Yamaguchi Holiday Special filmed in Denver. Meno and Sand had a tumble on a throw timed to the "Fall" in "Fall on your knees" from O Holy Night. They came out to do retakes after the show, and fell again. I think the third time was lucky.
 
Back to music....my club president attended the USFS webinar Monday night. Questions had to be submitted in advance and then were answered during the presentation. ...

Just want to mention that in addition to answers to pre-submitted questions, responses also were given to some of the questions submitted live using the Zoom chat function.
(IIRC, they ran out of time to respond to every live question from the Zoom chat, but said at the end that they would go through the unanswered questions and send replies individually?)

If anyone needs a link to the archived webinar (approx. 43 minutes long), it is within this e-mail from yesterday:

They also continue to encourage sending questions to: [email protected]
 
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I think this decision will push Figure Skating music even more in the direction of Warhorses than it already is.

I envision this to be the USFSA Approved Music List (since most skaters use this music already, not much of a change):

1. Carmen

2. Rachmaninov's Piano Concerto No.2

3. Rachmaninov's Piano Concerto No. 3

4. Swan Lake

5. The Nutcracker

6. Sleeping Beauty

7. Tchaikovsky's Romeo & Juliet

8. Liebestraume by Franz Liszt

9. Borodin's Polovtsian Dances

10. Blue Danube Waltz
I would prefer warhorses to most of the modern music being skated too now. A prime example would be Ilia’s new short.
 
Not just guidelines - the ISU has the host broadcaster stream and its online streams, and skaters from different countries are using music from all over the world that's probably registered with many different publishers and royalty collectors. The ISU should get on this issue for its own sake.

That's not necessary. Many PROs have reciprocal international agreements with different countries because it would be an absolute nightmare for an artist/publisher/label/etc to register with every single one of them.

Maybe there will be collaboration between musicians and skaters. This seems like a good opportunity for indie musicians to get their music more exposure.

This will not happen. Commissioning new works is a process and along with it comes a whole host of IP concerns related to "works for hire". I could not imagine figure skaters and their teams undertaking such a thing. Furthermore, even if they did, commissioned works would be the domain of the sport's most financially privileged.

The concept of musicians forsaking their royalties and copyright for "more exposure" has a long, twisted, and ugly history. Ask any musician—in particular working-/middle-class musicians—they would rather be compensated fairly. This is why UMAW is currently pushing for South By Southwest, one of the largest industry conferences/showcases, to pay artists better: https://weareumaw.org/fair-pay-at-sxsw

What is even scarier than the perceived consequences of alleged noncompliance from BMI/ASCAP, is the K/F lawsuit simply appears to be, not that a license wasn't purchased, but that the band just didn't like that their music was used. The arena and broadcaster should have already had a license to air music which should have covered the band's licensing. If the music had already been licensed, then you are looking at  another form of litigation where even if a license exists, you need another level of express permission directly from the musician.

Musicians have always had the right to determine who gets to use their music or not. Mostly, artists DGAF about it, as long as the proper licensing is acquired. The largest instances where this becomes an issue is with political campaigns, where a musician/etc issues a C&D for infringement.

I don't have access to the K/F court documents, but reading the coverage, I would guess they settled because it was cheaper than litigation, and kept the attention off them/USFS. I can imagine the optics looked bad, but my .02 is that K/F used the music fairly, and the plaintiffs claimed it counted as a film/commerical sync (which requires direct permission from the writer/publisher), which it was not. Pretty easy to see how a judge would rule in their favor, because the musician's argument was pretty bogus in the first place.

I know I said above that musicians deserve compensation—they do—but I think it's important to point out that HYH decided to capitalize on the media attention around the Olys because in the end it would warrant a payout. If you look at their IMDB credits, they pretty much stop at 2021, so my gut tells me they were looking for money, which they got, but I have to wonder if the PR attention helped their bottom line.

For as confusing as the K/F v. HYH case is, I do think it was important. The issue of licensing and how it intersects with skating has been ongoing; back when I gave a paper on this at the 2006 EMP Pop Conference ("Lost In Translation: Musical Selection In Figure Skating") people were extremely curious. Ben Sisario wrote a good piece on this for 2018.

I already see some folks grousing about USFS passing along the cost to the member, however it may pan out (competitions or membership fee increases). I don't think this is a bad thing.

Just looking at this thread and witnessing how little posters here understand the differences between the concepts of copyright, licensing, televised broadcast, streaming, and digital playback, I think skaters (and USFS) are long overdue for truly understanding the value of the music underscoring the public's appeal and fascination with the sport.

I'm about to dive into the USFS recording, but I do wish they would partner with the folks at the Future of Music Coalition to help build out some educational materials for skaters, choreographers, clubs, et al. I think as someone who has a personal interest in both avenues, it is my hope that the outcome is skaters/etc become more informed about music and serve as allies in musician's efforts for proper compensation, especially in the US.
 
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That's not necessary. Many PROs have reciprocal international agreements with different countries because it would be an absolute nightmare for an artist/publisher/label/etc to register with every single one of them.



This will not happen. Commissioning new works is a process and along with it comes a whole host of IP concerns related to "works for hire". I could not imagine figure skaters and their teams undertaking such a thing. Furthermore, even if they did, commissioned works would be the domain of the sport's most financially privileged.

The concept of musicians forsaking their royalties and copyright for "more exposure" has a long, twisted, and ugly history. Ask any musician—in particular working-/middle-class musicians—they would rather be compensated fairly. This is why UMAW is currently pushing for South By Southwest, one of the largest industry conferences/showcases, to pay artists better: https://weareumaw.org/fair-pay-at-sxsw



Musicians have always had the right to determine who gets to use their music or not. Mostly, artists DGAF about it, as long as the proper licensing is acquired. The largest instances where this becomes an issue is with political campaigns, where a musician/etc issues a C&D for infringement.

I don't have access to the K/F court documents, but reading the coverage, I would guess they settled because it was cheaper than litigation, and kept the attention off them/USFS. I can imagine the optics looked bad, but my .02 is that K/F used the music fairly, and the plaintiffs claimed it counted as a film/commerical sync (which requires direct permission from the writer/publisher), which it was not. Pretty easy to see how a judge would rule in their favor, because the musician's argument was pretty bogus in the first place.

I know I said above that musicians deserve compensation—they do—but I think it's important to point out that HYH decided to capitalize on the media attention around the Olys because in the end it would warrant a payout. If you look at their IMDB credits, they pretty much stop at 2021, so my gut tells me they were looking for money, which they got, but I have to wonder if the PR attention helped their bottom line.

For as confusing as the K/F v. HYH case is, I do think it was important. The issue of licensing and how it intersects with skating has been ongoing; back when I gave a paper on this at the 2006 EMP Pop Conference ("Lost In Translation: Musical Selection In Figure Skating") people were extremely curious. Ben Sisario wrote a good piece on this for 2018.

I already see some folks grousing about USFS passing along the cost to the member, however it may pan out (competitions or membership fee increases). I don't think this is a bad thing.

Just looking at this thread and witnessing how little posters here understand the differences between the concepts of copyright, licensing, televised broadcast, streaming, and digital playback, I think skaters (and USFS) are long overdue for truly understanding the value of the music underscoring the public's appeal and fascination with the sport.

I'm about to dive into the USFS recording, but I do wish they would partner with the folks at the Future of Music Coalition to help build out some educational materials for skaters, choreographers, clubs, et al. I think as someone who has a personal interest in both avenues, it is my hope that the outcome is skaters/etc become more informed about music and serve as allies in musician's efforts for proper compensation, especially in the US.
Thank you for explaining this @Theoreticalgirl -- definitely an area I know nothing about.

Can we (FSU) nominate you for a USFS Board position?
 

The lawsuit is here:

ETA:​
ISU has an (apparently new) e-learning course, "Music Rights in Sports," per Facebook post on Jul 1.​
Literally anyone can make an account to take the course for free.​
Per the overview page: "The course duration is estimated to be 45 minutes." (FWIW, I was able to quickly click through in less time.)​
 
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I don't have access to the K/F court documents, but reading the coverage, I would guess they settled because it was cheaper than litigation, and kept the attention off them/USFS. I can imagine the optics looked bad, but my .02 is that K/F used the music fairly, and the plaintiffs claimed it counted as a film/commerical sync (which requires direct permission from the writer/publisher), which it was not. Pretty easy to see how a judge would rule in their favor, because the musician's argument was pretty bogus in the first place.
I don't think this is accurate. The band in question does not participate in the licensing deals with those companies mentioned. Instead, they negotiate individual licenses for the use of their music. They contacted K/F before the Olympics when they saw their music was being used and were ignored. Hence the suit.

As for them not publishing anything since 2021, Boston had 8 years between albums. :lol: It's not that long for musicians.
 
I don't think this is accurate. The band in question does not participate in the licensing deals with those companies mentioned. Instead, they negotiate individual licenses for the use of their music. They contacted K/F before the Olympics when they saw their music was being used and were ignored. Hence the suit.

I may be wrong about the timeline of events, but you are wrong about them not belonging to a PRO.

Here's the BMI entry for the song in question: https://imgur.com/a/Cl7cRnT

They're both the songwriter and publisher (their company is Lonely Orchard).

(And in looking at the original complaint—thanks @ice coverage!—I think my argument still stands. They're allowed to use the material. This was a cash grab.)

As for them not publishing anything since 2021, Boston had 8 years between albums.
:lol:
It's not that long for musicians.

They don't make records—they work predominantly in making music for TV/Film. I have a few friends who do this stuff and their schedules are booked constantly because they are beholden to production schedules, release dates, etc. The only time any of them have ever stopped is if their union went on strike.

It is as if you are trying to compare a painter who makes fine art work with a designer at an ad agency. They both are in the business of making images, but their disciplines couldn't be any more different.
 
It is as if you are trying to compare a painter who makes fine art work with a designer at an ad agency. They both are in the business of making images, but their disciplines couldn't be any more different
Copyright and trademark laws are the same for both.
 
Why USFS needs to get a license that covers streaming and online posting:


I'm sure there is now a sizable group of people who never heard of Jade before but have made a mental note to try to watch her/women's gym during the Olys. If USFS wants to grab the attention of people who have never watched skating before, they're not going to accomplish that by hiding elite skaters' performances.

I wonder how USA Gym and NBC have handled the licensing of their broadcast content.
 
I really, really don't understand your thinking. Just because some music is on a USFSA list doesn't mean that it is usable for anything except competitions and the immediate broadcast of them. Maybe--if we're lucky--Peacock on replays. It doesn't matter whether it is classical music or the modern rap--the restrictions are severe.
Exactly, and I just want to add that for the fans that have YouTube figure skating channels to be very aware of the consequences that may come about at any time.

Some may not want or wish to hear that. However, there is a chance that the fans with the figure skating channels may find that one day they receive an email from YouTube explaining that a copyright was violated and threaten to close the account because of the music that was in the video.

When I first had my YouTube channel, I received notifications that two of my videos from the 1995 Vail Figure Skating Festival had been muted because of copyrights. A video of Yuka Sato skating to a medley from Mary Poppins, and a video of Paul Wylie skating to O Holy Night was muted.

Plus, YouTube deleted a video because of the music from an interview with Michelle, Tara, Todd and Elvis before the 1998 Olympics. That happened about 4 or 5 years ago. It could have been later than that, and I remember I posted here about it because I was devastated. YouTube gave me no choice because of that one video. They said I either had to take a "copyright class" given by them online or delete my account. YouTube said that even if I chose to take the "copyright class" they would still have to delete my account if anymore of the figure skating videos had a copyright violation because of the music. I decided it wasn't worth it and deleted my account.

I have been given suggestions of other places that I can upload my videos to. I just haven't made up my mind yet because it would take a lot of time to upload the videos because of how many I have.
 
Just curious - "filler" music or no music at all? USFS' "Behind the Lens" programs from 2024 Skate America:

Chock/Bates' FD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8Qh2R5Sok8

Ilia Malinin's FS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeQTmH1i4gw
Honestly, they should just show highlights. There's no point in showing a program with (really bad) background music....then it's not really their program anymore. I assume USFS' goal in posting is to get people interested in skating....a video where the skating and costumes don't match the music just looks strange.

Show some backstage footage with a few on-ice highlights....a couple of Ilia's quads, the backflip and raspberry twist. C/B's lifts, maybe their choreo step.
 

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