Valieva Banned for Four Years, Effective December 25, 2021

[rfisher]

You were the one who brought up Canada getting 1 point and tying with Russia. So math is the issue here, but not for me.

Whatever.

 

[Colonel Green]

Well apparently the rules don't explicitly state what they'd do in the event of a team member being DQ'd so I don't think math is the issue here.

Setting aside the math, there is no conceptual justification for not updating the points. If Kamila is disqualified, she didn’t win the segment. Everyone is, per the rules, supposed to move up.

Right now, the ISU says that winning the women’s segment gets you 9 points but winning men’s, pairs or dance gets you 10.

 

[Rob]

And according to the 2021 rules regarding team, Article 11.2.1 states that if one member of the team is found guilty of violating anti-doping rules, the rest of the team is tested on site and if they are negative, they will not be disqualified as a team. It is the in-competition testing that determines the results. The rest of the team, and Valieva for that matter, did not test positive at the Olympics.

Article 11.2.2 states if any member of the team is found to have violated the rules during the event, then the entire team would be DQ'd. They were not.

Article 11.2.3 states that if one member is found in violation and the rest of the team members establish they had no fault or negligence, they are not DQ'd

That is why the "team" is not DQ'd. These articles make the TE very complicated.

So no rule on what happens to the team with someone who tested positive out of competition (because they expected them not to be there) so they are applying what they would have done if she tested positive in competition. And no rule on reallocating points with an individual DQ in the team event. All Wrong.

 

[BlueRidge]

Setting aside the math, there is no conceptual justification for not updating the points. If Kamila is disqualified, she didn’t win the segment. Everyone is, per the rules, supposed to move up.

Right now, the ISU says that winning the women’s segment gets you 9 points but winning men’s, pairs or dance gets you 10.

Its hard to argue with this. But if you take the stand that they don't have an explicit rule for the Olympic team event that says what happens if one skater's results are removed, the argument is you can do whatever you want and no one can really argue. If this satisfies some people for how the ISU should do things

 

[skategal]

Setting aside the math, there is no conceptual justification for not updating the points. If Kamila is disqualified, she didn’t win the segment. Everyone is, per the rules, supposed to move up.

Right now, the ISU says that winning the women’s segment gets you 9 points but winning men’s, pairs or dance gets you 10.

Yes this is the crux of it.

Skate Canada cited rule 353 that says "competitors having finished the competition and who initially placed lower than the disqualified competitor will move up accordingly in their placement."

All of the women who competed in the team event are supposed to move up and thus, get the subsequent points boost giving Canada the bronze.

 

[rfisher]

So no rule on what happens to the team with someone who tested positive out of competition (because they expected them not to be there) so they are applying what they would have done if she tested positive in competition. And no rule on reallocating points with an individual DQ in the team event. All Wrong.

That is how I read the updated Articles regarding the team event and doping. It's very explicit that with regard to the team as a whole, it is in competition results that determine if the team is DQ'd. Because she tested positive at a prior event, DQs her, but not the team if they are clean at the event in question. If, however, one member of the team does test positive, it's still not a forgone conclusion that the team would be DQ'd as there is a provision for the team members to prove no fault or negligence. They've known this since the Olympics when they tested the entire team. So, there was never any intent to DQ the entire team. The articles say nothing about scoring or what that means to team results as they only refer to doping violations and disqualifications.

 

[Bigbird]

C’mon we all know they’re going to award joint bronze medals to Canada and Russia

Now that is the medal ceremony I could pay to watch....

 

[Vagabond]

C’mon we all know they’re going to award joint bronze medals to Canada and Russia

With medals presented by David Pelletier.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

Just to get it off my chest. This is disgusting. So, if you cheat you can still win!

I smell Thomas Bach, the most corrupt head of the IOC in history. He`s a chronic Russian apologist and the one pushing Russia into the Paris games.

I haven`t looked around yet, but I hope that USFS is not just selfishly grabbing their gold and walking away.

 

[BittyBug]

Forget whether the OAR team or whatever Russia was called should be DQ'd - it doesn't matter - Valieva was DQ'd. So the competition results need to be recalculated as though she never skated. And if she never skated, the woman who originally placed 2nd is now in 1st and gets 10 points, not 9, the woman who placed 3r is now in 2nd and gets 9 points, not 8, etc. etc. And when the points are correctly re-allocated, CAN is 3rd and OAR is 4th. Nothing else makes sense.

 

[PRlady]

@PRlady's point seemed to be that they can do whatever they want to do. Which some actually think happens much too often.

Ahem my friends (I’m a gonna cook you a NICE American dinner Andrey, complete with ketchup). PRlady only stated that the TE is a made-up event with its own rules, and thus they can DQ a participant without bumping up her runners-up if they want. Didn’t say I thought that was the right thing to do, only that they’re making it up as they go along. And that they are thinking of politics and PR even if they’re woefully inept at it.

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

Setting aside the math, there is no conceptual justification for not updating the points. If Kamila is disqualified, she didn’t win the segment. Everyone is, per the rules, supposed to move up.

Right now, the ISU says that winning the women’s segment gets you 9 points but winning men’s, pairs or dance gets you 10.

Ah. So that is the reasoning....

Well, that kind of makes sense. I think someone who has more investment in this than I should check it.
How are the points per even calculated? Because if it is defined as "number of participants", then yeah, women event would count as 9 and then this decision makes sense.

 

[BlueRidge]

Ahem my friends (I’m a gonna cook you a NICE American dinner Andrey, complete with ketchup). PRlady only stated that the TE is a made-up event with its own rules, and thus they can DQ a participant without bumping up her runners-up if they want. Didn’t say I thought that was the right thing to do, only that they’re making it up as they go along. And that they are thinking of politics and PR even if they’re woefully inept at it.

I think that's what I said you said. Please no ketchup for me.

Now you may say that what they are doing is wrong if you would like

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

(I’m a gonna cook you a NICE American dinner Andrey, complete with ketchup).

 

[Lynn226]

Their explanation will probably be something to do with Grandpa's drink.

You forgot the cake!!

 

[honey]

Ah. So that is the reasoning....

Well, that kind of makes sense. I think someone who has more investment in this than I should check it.
How are the points per even calculated? Because if it is defined as "number of participants", then yeah, women event would count as 9 and then this decision makes sense.

That isn’t how they handled other events that only had 9 competitors. Those were allocated out of 10, not 9. They are applying different rules for the women.

 

[Colonel Green]

How are the points per even calculated? Because if it is defined as "number of participants", then yeah, women event would count as 9 and then this decision makes sense.

First equals 10, and so on. Having fewer participants just means that last place is 2 points (or whatever), as we saw when the German pair couldn’t compete.

 

[tony]

Ah. So that is the reasoning....

Well, that kind of makes sense. I think someone who has more investment in this than I should check it.
How are the points per even calculated? Because if it is defined as "number of participants", then yeah, women event would count as 9 and then this decision makes sense.

No. If a skater or team does not compete in a section, that country gets 0 (and not 1). It doesn’t start from 9.

 

[Private Citizen]

I agree with Marbri that Occam's razor favors incompetence over malice with the ISU.

I anticipated this potential outcome (see post from yesterday), but thought the rationale was extremely weak, making it unlikely. Guess not with the ISU . Skate Canada is 100% right. I do expect that, somehow, eventually, this will be resolved in Canada's favor. Meanwhile, the beat goes on, and medals will be delayed even further....

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

With medals presented by David Pelletier.

Gordeeva, Sale and Berezhnaya will hand out the flowers

 

[Lynn226]

With medals presented by David Pelletier.

Taylor Swift and The Kween wuz robbed!!

(Someone mentioned them as medal presenters earlier.)

 

[Colonel Green]

With medals presented by David Pelletier.

With the way her politics have been trending, Jamie might show up to advocate for the Russian team at this point.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

Russian Fed and ISU are cowards. Russian Fed proved they cannot acknowledge nor play by the rules.

Russian Fed not cowards. They know exactly what it takes to win any battle and have no qualms about implementing them. They have cheated the 40 years I`ve watched sport. Where they`re allowed to compete they will continue to do so.

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

No. If a skater or team does not compete in a section, that country gets 0 (and not 1). It doesn’t start from 9.

First equals 10, and so on. Having fewer participants just means that last place is 2 points (or whatever), as we saw when the German pair couldn’t compete.

Yes, I managed to miss the WD of Shmuratko and Seegert.
Well, maybe they should recalculate pairs and men too
Is there anything in the actual rules about how the points are awarded?

 

[skategal]

The way it stands now is that the Japanese ladies finished second to nobody in the Women's Team Event portions.

 

[Desperado]

With medals presented by David Pelletier.

And his Russian wife, Katia Gordeeva.

 

[PRlady]

Apparently it does start at ten for first place even if there are fewer competitors. Someone posted it in the last thread.

Now they could have done it differently. They could have devised a formula based on score as well as placement so that if Joan scores 110 in the free and Katya 108 and Midori 98, Katya’s contribution to the team total is much closer to Joan’s than to Midori’s.

The point being that it’s all arbitrary anyway. Bumping up skaters in individual events if someone is DQed is a longstanding rule. There isn’t anything longstanding about the TE.

 

[Tesla]

And, that was the debate at the time and the IOC and ISU decided to let her compete since she was a minor. That's on them.

I thought it was CAS that let her compete. Hence, the reason for 25 women skating the short.

 

[Vagabond]

With the way her politics have been trending, Jamie might show up to advocate for the Russian team at this point.

She can bring flowers. It's the Russian thing to do, and Eteri Tutberidze would appreciate it.

 

[rfisher]

Apparently it does start at ten for first place even if there are fewer competitors. Someone posted it in the last thread.

Now they could have done it differently. They could have devised a formula based on score as well as placement so that if Joan scores 110 in the free and Katya 108 and Midori 98, Katya’s contribution to the team total is much closer to Joan’s than to Midori’s.

The point being that it’s all arbitrary anyway. Bumping up skaters in individual events if someone is DQed is a longstanding rule. There isn’t anything longstanding about the TE.

Exactly. It's pretty much the same as scoring a skater to place higher by ignoring faults in the skate. See the US men's championship results. When there are no rules, you can make rules to suit the circumstances. This is a decision that was made two years ago when a) Kamila was allowed to compete, b) decisions were made, c) appeals were made. The possible outcomes were pretty clear and for whatever reason this is the one that was chosen.