VGThuy

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41,023
The statement indicated that the doping rules don't vary based on age.
"The CAS Panel stressed that the test with respect to intention under Clause 12.2 of the Russian ADR is one and the same whether the athlete is an adult or a Protected Person. It means that if a Protected Person fails to discharge the burden (which under the Russian ADR is borne by the athlete) that he or she did not commit ADRV intentionally, there is no basis under the rules to treat them any differently from an
adult athlete."
This is what many of us were saying when Valieva was somehow allowed to compete in the individual when all of this came out. The WADA rules were very clear and easy-to-read. That panel during the emergent hearing came to their rationale for their decision to allow Valieva to compete in the individual event out from their behinds.
 

crzesk8dad

Where am I? How do I get off? Do I get ice cream?
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897
4 years for a minor athlete. Now it seems to me that all this delaying the decision was not for nothing. I hope this is not the last decision.
Eteri should get a lifetime ban from ISU. I hold her more accountable than the athlete, although the athlete is also responsible. Much like harassment rules, she is in position of authority and needs to be held at a higher standard.
 

VGThuy

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41,023
I'm unclear as to why the Russian ADR applies vs. an international rule.
I bet it's because a lot of CAS rulings are starting to get appealed based on the charters signed by the European Convention on Human Rights that Russia was a signatory of at the time of this issue. Some CAS decisions were getting overturned for due process reasons (not on the merits specifically in many cases). The rights of the athletes from member states are based on this convention and even the EU human rights charter.

I bet citing the Russian ADR is a way to make this decision less likely to be overturned on appeal. CAS is working to make their decisions stick while complying the with European Convention, the EU, and other international charters protecting individual rights.

Importantly, Russia is no longer a signatory of the European Convention on Human Rights, so any future case wouldn't make CAS beholden to the same strict due process and other rules that signatories of that convention would be so entitled.
 

Rob

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15,237
That's why I think it will be the middle ground of treating Russia like Germany & Ukraine with a 0 and the rest of the women getting 1 point extra in both segments since Russia would have still made the FS segment even without Valieva's 10 points from the SP but they'll lose out on any medal at all, which seems just punishment.
This is what I think too. In gymnastics, to me, the rules read as if it is the national federation's responsibility to make sure all team athletes are age-eligible so it makes sense that the whole federation is disqualified in a team event for an age violation. In track and field/swimming, if an athlete is DQ in a team event for doping, it means they didn't complete the course so the team is DQ. Apart from that, I can't think of examples on doping eliminating a whole national team unless you have a Sochi 2014 state sponsored issue (and even then we have had ROC or OAR).

With Winter Games 2022, many people might think Russia is guilty of state sponsored doping, but no-one of the other skaters has a positive test issue. Russia is banned as a state now for the war and not for doping. That is why I think the middle ground is where ISU will go. It is pretty bizarre that with doping being such a huge issue that there aren't written rules on how one DQ affects the rest of the individual performances for this event.
 

Yazmeen

All we are saying, is give peace a chance
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5,840
Well, hopefully their medals will come WAY sooner than these did - and this did set a bit of a precedent for a team disqualification.

I'm still blown away that China only got caught because Dong Fangxiao made the mistake of using a passport with her REAL birthdate on it when she became a technical specialist for the 2010 games.

 

Karen-W

How long do we have to wait for GP assignments?
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36,713
That's better than one they apparently considered trying to float in the first few hours of trying to come up with an excuse - per one article transalated on FS-Gossips, her dog was going to be fingered as the culprit.
 

DreamSkates

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Eteri should get a lifetime ban from ISU. I hold her more accountable than the athlete, although the athlete is also responsible. Much like harassment rules, she is in position of authority and needs to be held at a higher standard.
The article mentions in such a case, the entourage should also be investigated. Not sure how they would go about that now, but works for me.
 

Rainbow

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461
This is what I think too. In gymnastics, to me, the rules read as if it is the national federation's responsibility to make sure all team athletes are age-eligible so it makes sense that the whole federation is disqualified in a team event for an age violation. In track and field/swimming, if an athlete is DQ in a team event for doping, it means they didn't complete the course so the team is DQ. Apart from that, I can't think of examples on doping eliminating a whole national team unless you have a Sochi 2014 state sponsored issue (and even then we have had ROC or OAR).

With Winter Games 2022, many people might think Russia is guilty of state sponsored doping, but no-one of the other skaters has a positive test issue. Russia is banned as a state now for the war and not for doping. That is why I think the middle ground is where ISU will go. It is pretty bizarre that with doping being such a huge issue that there aren't written rules on how one DQ affects the rest of the individual performances for this event.
As written above Rythmic Gymnastics worlds 2001 in Madrid. The positive doping tests of two of the four team members also occured several weeks before the competition. Whole team disqualified and rightly so.
 

Rainbow

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461
oh what a surprise. Russia. Doping. I never would have thought.



really - if we never see them on international competitions again it is still too bloody soon. I am so fecking over them.
And Putins baby mama on top of it. Canˋt make this stuff up. And claimed they just took medication helping with premenstrual syndrom at the time.
 

Andrey aka Pushkin

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Anything other than a full DQ of the ROC team would set an odd precedent that could potentially cause flip-flops in future cases. E.g., imagine a hypothetical case where Japan was ahead of the US by one point and the order of finish in both the women's short and free was Japan, Russia, USA. Recalculating points without Russia would cause a flip-flop and vault USA ahead of Japan.

I think the least dangerous option is to leave the points as-is, but fully disqualify RUS. If they start meddling with recalculating points, there could be a future situation where literally the entire podium changes and teams find themselves jumping or dropping two or more spots after a DQ.
I don't have a strong opinion on this, but I don't see a real justification of DQ the entire team. They wouldn't have been ineligible to compete if Valieva was disqualified, and unlike with gymnastics team, where the officials/coaches of the other athletes were directly involved, as far as I'm aware right now, the rest of the Russian team, including, interestingly enough, Tutberidze, is not accused in anything.

Which brings be back to my original point, this idiotic event was just made up to allow the big federations getting an additional medal, and it has nothing to do with actual competition that would make any sense.

And with Sadovski being a potential medalist, I'm voting for giving Russians the bronze at any cost :scream:
 

coppertop1

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1,969
Why do you support doping/cheating? She shouldn't have been at the Olympics anyway. The real victim here is Elizaveta Tuktamysheva, who watched the Olympics from home.
Liza. Sigh. I
I don't have a strong opinion on this, but I don't see a real justification of DQ the entire team. They wouldn't have been ineligible to compete if Valieva was disqualified, and unlike with gymnastics team, where the officials/coaches of the other athletes were directly involved, as far as I'm aware right now, the rest of the Russian team, including, interestingly enough, Tutberidze, is not accused in anything.

Which brings be back to my original point, this idiotic event was just made up to allow the big federations getting an additional medal, and it has nothing to do with actual competition that would make any sense.

And with Sadovski being a potential medalist, I'm voting for giving Russians the bronze at any cost :scream:
So let the team that cheated keep their medal? Nice
 

Wyliefan

Ubering juniors against my will
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Andrey aka Pushkin

Playing ping pong with balls of chocolate jam
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So let the team that cheated keep their medal? Nice
The team didn't cheat. A skater did. This entire event has nothing "teamy" about it, and there's zero connection between the team members. It's more akin to these fun statistics of "which country won the most medals", where for some reason, additional medals are given to the top three of these statistics.

Besides, Russians will claim Sadovski as their own, do not only we get the Russians medal, but also it awards arguably the worst performance in the Olympic history.
 

manhn

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14,814
Athletes don't win medals for being the atop the medals standings. Not sure why the legitimacy of the event matters here. If it's no big deal, I'm sure the other athletes don't mind relinquishing their gold medals.
 

Karen-W

How long do we have to wait for GP assignments?
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36,713
The team didn't cheat. A skater did. This entire event has nothing "teamy" about it, and there's zero connection between the team members. It's more akin to these fun statistics of "which country won the most medals", where for some reason, additional medals are given to the top three of these statistics.

Besides, Russians will claim Sadovski as their own, do not only we get the Russians medal, but also it awards arguably the worst performance in the Olympic history.
Hey, all those "team" members are more than happy to call themselves Olympic champions and benefit from that achievement financially. Live by the "team", die by the "team" and suffer the consequences if one of the "team" members decides to cheat.
 

coppertop1

Well-Known Member
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1,969
The team didn't cheat. A skater did. This entire event has nothing "teamy" about it, and there's zero connection between the team members. It's more akin to these fun statistics of "which country won the most medals", where for some reason, additional medals are given to the top three of these statistics.

Besides, Russians will claim Sadovski as their own, do not only we get the Russians medal, but also it awards arguably the worst performance in the Olympic history.
Having an athlete in the team who wasn't clean is cheating. One team member breaks the rules, the whole team is stripped. That's some mental gymnastics your doing
 

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