Keeping Track of Criminal Cases & SafeSport Suspensions in Skating

[BlueRidge]

The difference is that they are employees who will get paid while on leave or who can be fired. Sørenson is not an employee so how to deal with this situation is more complex. I mean who is going to put him on leave? How can he be fired? The closest to those situations is to bar him from coaching and not appoint the team to international events.

There may be other things that should be done until the investigation is over but I bet a lot of them would end up with an appeal to CAS and the thing being overturned.

I'm just thinking that he does have a relationship with an organization that could sever that relationship if it chose to regardless of all the rest of this. I'm hoping that is in the cards.

 

[Judy]

I guess we’ll see what happens though. I have no idea myself. I’m not into guessing.

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

I'm just thinking that he does have a relationship with an organization that could sever that relationship if it chose to regardless of all the rest of this. I'm hoping that is in the cards.

I'm guessing that Skate Canada has been consulting with lawyers over the last couple of days (I bet IAM has been too). If nothing else, they're going to need to respond adequately to media questions during Canadian Nats. It's possible they can't do much until OSIC at least makes some kind interim ruling, which might make things very complicated come World's in Montreal, FB/S's training base and hometown.

 

[Sparks]

It helps to answer that if you remember that there is another person involved, and ask yourself: Did the victim deserve to have her life wrecked? She has had to pay a huge price in pain and suffering, and the "mistake" wasn't even hers. Why shouldn't the person who made the "mistake" have to pay a price?

Yes. Rape can be the equivalent of soul murder

 

[Lil Sarah]

Since the topic has also covered other athletes that are in Canada, here is one from my local area. Boady Santavy was a hit-and-run driver, seriously hurt someone, and yet still went to the Tokyo Olympics after that. Canada doesn't have a great track record for athletes.

Here is an article about it (ETA: that article isn't visible without signing up)

A free article

 

[Dragonlady]

Hockey boys have been sexually molested too. Google Mike Danton and David Frost. The story is very, very, very sick with Frost. Dalton just pled guilty, denied it was he was after and has never spoken publicly. Still has no contact with his parents or his younger brother. It‘s a really sick and complicated story ?.

While that's true, what does that have to do with the rape of female athletes by male athletes. You seem to be suggesting that males who rape women should be cut some slack because male athletes have been sexually assaulted as well????

 

[MacMadame]

I'm just thinking that he does have a relationship with an organization that could sever that relationship if it chose to regardless of all the rest of this. I'm hoping that is in the cards.

I am hoping too but it has to be after the investigation is over IMO. Nationals and (possibly) Worlds are going to happen before that. So what can and should be done about that? I think SCI is in a hard place here and there isn't much they can do right now.

 

[Hedwig]

I am hoping too but it has to be after the investigation is over IMO. Nationals and (possibly) Worlds are going to happen before that. So what can and should be done about that? I think SCI is in a hard place here and there isn't much they can do right now.

I agree and I very much think that it is therefore on Sorensen- or if he is not human being enough to do it- on his coaches- to withdraw from Nationals.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

IF this situation happened (and I have no reason to believe it didn't), does the perpetrator deserve to have their entire career destroyed?

Yes. Rapists deserve to have their life ruined. Rape is not a mistake.

What a disgusting question.

 

[Alilou]

Yes. Rapists deserve to have their life ruined. Rape is not a mistake.

What a disgusting question.

THIS THIS THIS!

 

[Dragonlady]

Since the topic has also covered other athletes that are in Canada, here is one from my local area. Boady Santavy was a hit-and-run driver, seriously hurt someone, and yet still went to the Tokyo Olympics after that. Canada doesn't have a great track record for athletes.

Here is an article about it (ETA: that article isn't visible without signing up)

A free article

What does this have to do with the case in question?

Just food for thought here....

Is there a difference between a one off drunken event and consistent targeting and sexual abuse? (I guess I'm just asking for people's thoughts on this). For example, I suspect MANY men and women have done things they regret after a drunken evening of partying in their early 20s. Is that sort of behaviour "equivalent" to someone who is targeting people and sexually assualting numerous people over a period of time?

Yes - some will think I'm trying to excuse this "one off behaviour" which I'm not.... but I do feel there is a difference.

IF this situation happened (and I have no reason to believe it didn't), does the perpetrator deserve to have their entire career destroyed? If you say yes to this, then would you say the same to any other professional/adult who has made a mistake in their past? (ie: If a victim comes forward 10-15 years after an alleged rape, should the accused automatically be fired and lose their job?). If that is the case, I think you could see hundreds of thousands of people around the world lose their jobs because of one accusation.

I'm just not understanding the logic with some of the posts above who claim that Nik's career should be ended right this very second.

Rape is rape and using the excuse that you were "drunk" doesn't excuse the act, nor does it lessen the impact on the victim.
Rape is crime of control and humiliation. While being drunk may loosen inhibitions, if the perp didn''t have a strong sense of entitlement, and complete disregard or respect for his victim, he wouldn't rape someone under the influence, so there is no difference in the underlying criminal intent between the two.

Imagine a world where men's entire careers come to a crashing halt when it's found they raped someone. Maybe the world would be safer for women and girls and 1/4 of all women surveyed wouldn't be reporting having been raped or sexually abused at some point in their lives.

If Sorenson is guilty, he's had 11 years of a career that should have ended in 2012. He COULD have tried to take some responsibility or to make amends to his victim during that time, and he CHOSE to continue to cover it up. So I'm really not prepared to cut him any slack or extend his career beyond this point, if there is a finding of guilt.

Nor do I want him coaching young skaters. That's the LAST place he should be.

 

[BlueRidge]

I am hoping too but it has to be after the investigation is over IMO. Nationals and (possibly) Worlds are going to happen before that. So what can and should be done about that? I think SCI is in a hard place here and there isn't much they can do right now.

I'm not thinking of Skate Canada.

I'm thinking of his training base and coaches.

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

I'm not thinking of Skate Canada.

I'm thinking of his training base and coaches.

IAM definitely needs to do something or their "Charter of Values" means diddly squat. However, I suspect that they did not know the full extent of the complaint until Brennan's article came out.

 

[BlueRidge]

IAM definitely needs to do something or their "Charter of Values" means diddly squat. However, I suspect that they did not know the full extent of the complaint until Brennan's article came out.

They know it now.

 

[marbri]

I'm not thinking of Skate Canada.

I'm thinking of his training base and coaches.

I think Skate Canada and his training base and coaches are all in the same boat.

If you found out someone you knew and loved for years was accused of this is it really so easy to immediately toss them aside. They also have known and loved LoLo for years and her life, career and world are all in jeopardy now as well through no fault of hers. If I were in their position and had to make a decision that affects her as well I would see the investigation through.

I think it's really unrealistic to expect family, friends, colleagues, teammates to turn their backs on Nik when they have know about this, at most, for 3 months. I can only imagine the internal struggle I would be dealing with, the numbness, if someone I was close was accused of this. I can only imagine it would be similar to the seven stages of grief and give them the time to process that.

 

[Hedwig]

They know it now.

I wonder if they believe it. I can understand to an extent if people cannot fathom this kind of crime from someone they know and like or love.
And maybe they already gave promises to stand behind him when the accusations came to their attention at first.
People tend to believe the people they know. Like we had in the example above of someone saying that there was a wrong accusation of someone molesting someone.

I would have huge respect for them if they stop working with Sorensen now and I think it would be the right and only way.

But do I really believe that they will? Seeing humans as they are and them thinking themselves as a good judge of character… somehow I fear they won’t…

 

[Hedwig]

We wrote at the same time, Mabri, but very similar. I agree.

 

[BlueRidge]

I wonder if they believe it. I can understand to an extent if people cannot fathom this kind of crime from someone they know and like or love.
And maybe they already gave promises to stand behind him when the accusations came to their attention at first.
People tend to believe the people they know. Like we had in the example above of someone saying that there was a wrong accusation of someone molesting someone.

I would have huge respect for them if they stop working with Sorensen now and I think it would be the right and only way.

But do I really believe that they will? Seeing humans as they are and them thinking themselves as a good judge of character… somehow I fear they won’t…

IAM is an organization. It should have policies to deal with a situation such as this when an accusation is made about a person involved in the organization. It needs to be separated from personal feelings and not about the specific person whom the accusation has been made about. Because that is not what it is about; it is about how societies handle these issues so that victims can come forward and all involved can receive due process.

 

[Judy]

While that's true, what does that have to do with the rape of female athletes by male athletes. You seem to be suggesting that males who rape women should be cut some slack because male athletes have been sexually assaulted as well????

No I was referencing the pat c’s comment on the hockey. Get a grip.

Yes I think it’s equally horrific when someone gets raped/molested regardless of boy/girl. Duh.

 

[Hedwig]

IAM is an organization. It should have policies to deal with a situation such as this when an accusation is made about a person involved in the organization. It needs to be separated from personal feelings and not about the specific person whom the accusation has been made about. Because that is not what it is about; it is about how societies handle these issues so that victims can come forward and all involved can receive due process.

Very good answer

 

[Baby Yoda On Skates]

Here’s an example of an athlete who was allowed to compete at the 2021 Olympics and 2022 World Championships in fencing. The sexual assault allegations against him were serious enough that I remember reading about the measures being taken to ensure the safety of his fellow Olympians in 2021.

An Elite Fencer Under Investigation For Sexual Assault For More Than A Year Is Still Allowed To Compete

Six women have accused Alen Hadzic of sexual assault. More than a year later, there's no resolution in the case, and he is still allowed to compete.

www.buzzfeednews.com

He was permanently banned by SafeSport in 2023.

And USA Fencing had egg all over it's face after that debacle. They changed their processes and procedures and members are immediately suspended when a complaint is made to SafeSport.

Right before Xmas I received an email stating the then current Board Chair was suspended and reported to Safesport for an unnamed violation.

Sports organizations can absolutely take the same steps as USA Fencing did to ensure their members are safe.

 

[tony]

I think it's really unrealistic to expect family, friends, colleagues, teammates to turn their backs on Nik when they have know about this, at most, for 3 months. I can only imagine the internal struggle I would be dealing with, the numbness, if someone I was close was accused of this. I can only imagine it would be similar to the seven stages of grief and give them the time to process that.

The problem with this is that the keyboard generation of this social media craze want to tell people exactly how they must think and react to situations. We saw it with Coughlin and the lists of people who did and didn’t make statements (ie Rippon being torn into for him saying he chose to remember the good moments with John), we see it here on FSU with grown-ass adults making comments about never ever again supporting X skater because of something as small as not unfollowing said skater who has been accused.

It’s not up for anyone else to decide how other people process any and all of this info.

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

Once again

Infographic of the Day

[Content Note: Rape culture.] Care of Sarah at The Enliven Project . [H/T to Shaker gidgetcommando.]

www.shakesville.com

If you don't like the vigilante nature of rape accusations today change the percentages shown above. If society laws don't provide justice you can't whine and bitch that vigilantism is on the rise. You can stop vigilantism by actually convicting rape. Pretty damn simple.

 

[tony]

Once again


If you don't like the vigilante nature of rape accusations today change the percentages shown above. If society laws don't provide justice you can't whine and bitch that vigilantism is on the rise. You can stop vigilantism by actually convicting rape. Pretty damn simple.

Not sure if it was referencing any post since you didn’t quote, but once again, you can’t just assume everyone who is ever accused of anything should be automatically guilty. It doesn’t mean anyone cares any less. But it’s not how the system needs to work for this set of circumstances or for anything else involving laws. Think of Jussie Smollett and the whole circus around his situation because many people took his word for 100% fact from the start. Look at the bird watcher situation in NYC and what could have happened to the man accused if not for his video. Look at the Ellie Williams case for something tied to this situation.

Once again, I can pull receipts of posters on this very thread basically calling for immediate recognition of this likely being a true case and calling for action from other organizations, but they completely avoided the Biden case and still root for him to this day.

The vigilante nature on social media goes for any and everything these days— most of the time from a profile with little following, pictures of inanimate objects, and constant harassment of how so and so hasn’t made a clear stance on something or how they are going to be ‘unfollowed’ or have their career ruined because said person does make a stance known. Why should every last low-level celebrity have to make a statement about Israel versus Palestine, for example? Why should skaters be subject to grilling by the same set of media characters at upcoming events or by fans because they don’t clearly state their ‘side’?

 

[Hedwig]

Once again


If you don't like the vigilante nature of rape accusations today change the percentages shown above. If society laws don't provide justice you can't whine and bitch that vigilantism is on the rise. You can stop vigilantism by actually convicting rape. Pretty damn simple.

In defence- I think that was less about this but more about how the rest of his close circle is now expected to behave. And that IS hard.

Also some unrelated and unrealistic experiences like that Canadian skaters now have to say sth against him on social media- ehm no- they should keep still. This is not on them.

Eta- I was wrong apparently ??

 

[Hedwig]

Not sure if it was referencing any post since you didn’t quote, but once again, you can’t just assume everyone who is ever accused of anything should be automatically guilty. It doesn’t mean anyone cares any less. But it’s not how the system needs to work for this set of circumstances or for anything else involving laws. Think of Jussie Smollett and the whole circus around his situation because many people took his word for 100% fact from the start. Look at the bird watcher situation in NYC and what could have happened to the man accused if not for his video. Look at the Ellie Williams case for something tied to this situation.

Once again, I can pull receipts of posters on this very thread basically calling for immediate recognition of this likely being a true case and calling for action from other organizations, but they completely avoided the Biden case and still root for him to this day.

The vigilante nature on social media goes for any and everything these days— most of the time from a profile with little following, pictures of inanimate objects, and constant harassment of how so and so hasn’t made a clear stance on something or how they are going to be ‘unfollowed’ or have their career ruined because said person does make a stance known. Why should every last low-level celebrity have to make a statement about Israel versus Palestine, for example? Why should skaters be subject to grilling by the same set of media characters at upcoming events or by fans because they don’t clearly state their ‘side’?

I dont know half of the names you are pulling but afaik Biden was not accused of sexual assualt (his name I do know) and here it is not about any crime but about rape and here it is universally acknowledged that the rate of „false positives“ is minuscule- so you are comparing apples with oranges.

 

[marbri]

In defence- I think that was less about this but more about how the rest of his close circle is now expected to behave. And that IS hard.

Also some unrelated and unrealistic experiences like that Canadian skaters now have to say sth against him on social media- ehm no- they should keep still. This is not on them.

Eta- I was wrong apparently ??

That is closer to what I was trying to say fwiw.

 

[tony]

I dont know half of the names you are pulling but afaik Biden was not accused of sexual assualt (his name I do know) and here it is not about any crime but about rape and here it is universally acknowledged that the rate of „false positives“ is minuscule- so you are comparing apples with oranges.

Well, you’re wrong.

Examining Tara Reade’s Sexual Assault Allegation Against Joe Biden (Published 2020)

Ms. Reade, a former Senate aide, has accused Mr. Biden of assaulting her in 1993 and says she told others about it. A Biden spokeswoman said the allegation is false, and former Senate office staff members do not recall such an incident.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Hedwig]

Well, you’re wrong.

Examining Tara Reade’s Sexual Assault Allegation Against Joe Biden (Published 2020)

Ms. Reade, a former Senate aide, has accused Mr. Biden of assaulting her in 1993 and says she told others about it. A Biden spokeswoman said the allegation is false, and former Senate office staff members do not recall such an incident.

www.nytimes.com

Okay. So the rest of your names was about rape and SA assault ad well and all proven wrong? That still does not change the propabilities.

 

[Sparks]

That is PI material