The Heir, The Spare and the “Baby Brain” -The Prince Harry and Meghan show rumbles on…

[puglover]

One of the positive aspects of big families and huge residencies is you don't have to be super tight with each and every person to find a comfortable spot. Plus, this is one family I would never say never about. Camilla is Queen and very well liked by many closely associated with the family. Fergie, who seemed to always be on the outs, raised two lovely daughters and speaks with great love and respect about her former MIL. Prince Phillip, who frequently put his foot in his mouth, became a dearly beloved and honoured grandfather. William and Harry are clearly unhappy with each other right now but they were very close, so who knows. Harry's real choice was not to walk away but to do it half time. Time will tell but I don't think he will be happy only as the Montecito royals and he does seem to care about his children's birthright.

 

[Jenny]

Honestly if I had a sibling, or a sibling in law, who repeatedly trashed me and our family and all it stands for in media interviews, tv biographies and a tell-all book, I wouldn't want to spend any more time than absolutely necessary with them, and I'd be strongly inclined to only do so in the presence of impartial witnesses.

 

[Karen-W]

Honestly if I had a sibling, or a sibling in law, who repeatedly trashed me and our family and all it stands for in media interviews, tv biographies and a tell-all book, I wouldn't want to spend any more time than absolutely necessary with them, and I'd be strongly inclined to only do so in the presence of impartial witnesses.

Fair point, but I also wouldn't prevent my kids from being around their kids and having a relationship. If anything, I think William is pragmatic enough to realize that the best way to combat whatever negative opinions/comments that Harry & Meghan might express or attempt to impart on their children is for those kids to be given the chance to interact with their family, especially their cousins. Goodness knows, my mom and her sisters were on the outs with each other at various points in their lives, and there were some awkward family holidays where one sister's family would show up early and depart before the one they were on the outs with arrived, but all of us cousins have managed, for the most part, to have some sort of relationship and contact in spite of all of that. My bet is that William and his Windsor cousins will always have an open door for Archie and Lilibet.

 

[Jenny]

At least some of the Windsor cousins are still close to Harry - he entered the Abbey for the Coronation with Beatrice and Eugenie and their husbands, and word is one or both have visited in California. But then again, he doesn't trash them publicly.

As for William and Harry's kids, might take time, probably better than trying to force it with awkward playdates. William's kids are currently 10, 8 and 5, and Harry's are 4 and 2. Maybe Louis and Archie, but at this point the kids are all at different stages in their growth and maybe what interests them in terms of what they can connect on.

I know that some families are very tight, but not all are. Barely knew my own cousins growing up because I'm older than all of them, so not much in common until we were adults, and now I'm close to several of them.

Either way, I wouldn't want to send so much as a text to Harry or Meghan for fear it would end up in the press, and I'd say many families have the same thinking in terms of what happens between us is nobody else's business, least of all the general public.

 

[Mugs]

If my cousin were going to be the future King of England (UK), I'd make a point of getting to know them regardless of my parents wishes.... There are various way of communicating that don't involve in-person meetings.

 

[canbelto]

You guys are in la la land if you think Archie and Lil will ever even meet G/C/L. These sorts of big family estrangements only harden over time, and kids pick up on the attitudes and beliefs of their parents. G/C/L will no doubt grow up believing only the worst about the Sussexes, and Archie/Lil will grow up believing the worst about the Wales. They would never want to displease their parents by going behind their backs to meet cousins who live halfway around the world.

That's just the way family feuds work.

 

[Mugs]

Hmm. Let me think ...
The disastrous parade with the Range Rover. The shaking hands through a chained fence. The clueless comments. The numerous pictures of Will looking terrified of black people.

I was not able to view the articles from the New York Times and Vanity Fair. I briefly saw a couple photos before I was kindly told I'm not a member, so no lookie for me. I was able to read the article from The Guardian. I saw no photos of William (or Kate for that matter) looking terrified of black people. Nor do I think that William or Kate are terrified of black people. I think some of your characterizations are exaggerated. The Guardian article mentions colonialism, slave trade, an under current of anger by a majority of locals and the overall poor timing of the visit. Two mentions in the article that I found interesting: 1) Lack of visits by W&K to local sites memorializing slavery. The other things lacking from W&K (or the team that set up the visit) were self-awareness, public relations, good optics whatever you want to call it. Acknowledge the past, please; 2) Allegations of racism against the BRF by Meghan. Fast forward nine or ten months, and after letting those allegations of racism hang in the air and negatively impact the reputation of the BRF for a couple of years, Meghan and Harry walk back those allegations. And don't even get me started on why Meghan feels so strongly that she was discriminated against by Harry's family, yet holds on just as strongly to the Duchess title, and just as strongly opined that her children must have prince and princess titles from those same discriminators. Why would anyone want titles from people who discriminated against you? Anyway, based on what I read in the article, the visit was neither a great success nor a complete disaster but more of a meh that failed to solidify future relations.

Yes, the BRF has a history of colonialism and active participation in the slave trade, from which William and Kate receive direct benefit. And yes, the BRF should acknowledge their past atrocities and apologize. They are more than just a family who owned a plantation and slaves (which is bad enough), they are an institution that destroyed lives by actively participated in the slave trade. I can only guess that the reason they don't apologize is that once the apology train leaves the station, how do you stop it? How far back do you go in apologizing for acts that happened hundreds of years ago? Do they apologize to Scotland, to Ireland, half the countries in Africa? And what would be the ramifications (financial, prestige, reputation, future of commonwealth, etc) of those apologies?

 

[Mugs]

You guys are in la la land if you think Archie and Lil will ever even meet G/C/L. These sorts of big family estrangements only harden over time, and kids pick up on the attitudes and beliefs of their parents.

I know adults and children who were rebellious and purposefully went against their parents point of view. We'll have to see how it unfolds.

G/C/L will no doubt grow up believing only the worst about the Sussexes, and Archie/Lil will grow up believing the worst about the Wales.

That is a distinct possibility but I hope not. The one thing that may help all the kids is the fact that the Internet has all of the articles, interviews, books, blah, blah, blah permanently recorded. Most depends on what the kids choose to believe from their parents, what they investigate on their own, what investigative tools they choose to use and if they care to even be bothered.

 

[puglover]

This family is unique though. Harry did not want to just pull out and give up being royal and leave it all to his brother. He stands a real risk of playing second fiddle to his wife in the U.S., and although longevity is a common trait of this family, in 20 years King Charles will be turning 95. William will become king in far less than 70 years. I think there will be large incentives on both sides to find a way forward, maybe not bosom brothers, but end the hostility.

 

[Karen-W]

You guys are in la la land if you think Archie and Lil will ever even meet G/C/L. These sorts of big family estrangements only harden over time, and kids pick up on the attitudes and beliefs of their parents. G/C/L will no doubt grow up believing only the worst about the Sussexes, and Archie/Lil will grow up believing the worst about the Wales. They would never want to displease their parents by going behind their backs to meet cousins who live halfway around the world.

That's just the way family feuds work.

Not every family feud works that way. Trust me, I've seen some pretty shitty behavior by some of my aunts and none of that meant that their kids grew up thinking the worst of their cousins. I'd say chances are good that both the Sussex and Wales kids will hear nice things about each other from their Brooksbank and Mapelli Mozzi cousins. And I'd bet they're curious enough, at some point in life, to have some degree of contact. It might not happen for 15-20 years, once they're all adults, but I don't think all hope is lost. It will, though, be an absolute shame if Archie & Lili never get to know their Grandpa Charles (and Step-Grandma Camilla, who, by all reports, is a wonderful grandmother to both her own and Charles' grandchildren).

 

[becca]

You guys are in la la land if you think Archie and Lil will ever even meet G/C/L. These sorts of big family estrangements only harden over time, and kids pick up on the attitudes and beliefs of their parents. G/C/L will no doubt grow up believing only the worst about the Sussexes, and Archie/Lil will grow up believing the worst about the Wales. They would never want to displease their parents by going behind their backs to meet cousins who live halfway around the world.

That's just the way family feuds work.

Those are some pretty big assumptions that GCL or Archie/Lili are going to have perfect relationships with their parents and never disagree with anything.

There will be some pretty big incentives to get to know family on Archie and Lilis side

This family is unique though. Harry did not want to just pull out and give up being royal and leave it all to his brother. He stands a real risk of playing second fiddle to his wife in the U.S., and although longevity is a common trait of this family, in 20 years King Charles will be turning 95. William will become king in far less than 70 years. I think there will be large incentives on both sides to find a way forward, maybe not bosom brothers, but end the hostility.

I think the problem for William is he doesn’t trust Harry. As long as Harry and Meghan are making money of their issues with the royal family there will be no cooling.

Andrew has issues but he is not giving interviews bashing his family. It’s a huge difference

 

[ballettmaus]

Andrew has issues but he is not giving interviews bashing his family. It’s a huge difference

Personally, I'd rather have someone like Harry in my family than Andrew. Yes, Harry is saying things publicly that I don't think are any of the public's business but he suffers from mental trauma and I think, what he does is forgivable. I don't think there is any excuse for what Andrew did.

 

[becca]

Personally, I'd rather have someone like Harry in my family than Andrew. Yes, Harry is saying things publicly that I don't think are any of the public's business but he suffers from mental trauma and I think, what he does is forgivable. I don't think there is any excuse for what Andrew did.

I don’t think what Andrew did was forgivable to although he still denies it.

But I don’t think William can ever trust Harry. As for Harry is traumatized. William lost his mother to and had been dealing with the media all the time.

I think William had a lot of trauma too when it comes to his parents openly discussing their marital problems on tv. He was older than Harry and had to deal with fall out. As well as friends feeding stories to the news.

They say William actually feeds False information to his friends to see who he can trust.

Harry isn’t the only person with trauma

 

[canbelto]

In normal families kids can and do rebel against their parents. But G/C/L are kids of the future king. If the future king (Will) wants to have nothing to do with Archie and Lil, why would G/C/L go against that?

 

[Mugs]

Personally, I'd rather have someone like Harry in my family than Andrew. Yes, Harry is saying things publicly that I don't think are any of the public's business but he suffers from mental trauma and I think, what he does is forgivable. I don't think there is any excuse for what Andrew did.

Totally agree about Andrew. Continuing denial of the Epstein situation and throwing temper tantrums about being asked to move out of an enormous mansion and into a huge house...zero self awareness.

I think giving Harry a total pass for his behavior based on past trauma isn't fair because William suffered the same trauma. Based on William's age, some parts of the trauma could be worse for him - his parents very public bickering and romantic shenanigans and the fact that Diana used William as an emotional crutch. Both men clearly suffer trauma from their parents public divorce, Diana's death and how the family dealt with Diana's death.

I wish William and Harry would patch up their relationship. You all don't know me at all but I'm going to share a personal story. Since my father died fifteen years ago, I've been the main support person for my mother (helping her with taxes, going to doctor's appointments with her, taking her grocery shopping, doing things around her house...that sort of thing) and my sister ignored the situation. About six years ago my mother started experiencing falls in her home with multiple hospitalizations and weeks spent in rehab facilities. As time passed the level of help and care mom needed escalated. I stepped up and did more to help my mother and asked my sister for help but my requests were ignored. I'm not talking about huge requests; more like asking my sister to grocery shop for mom once per month so I have a break, and I would handle everything else. My requests for help continued to be ignored. At a certain point I became resentful of my sister's attitude towards my mother and I stopped communicating with her and I refused to attend family events. This went on for over two years. In June 2020 my mom fell again. She almost died and was in the ICU for a week. At that point I moved into my mom's home to take care of her full time. In July 2020 my sister became seriously ill and was hospitalized. On August 8, 2020 my sister died. We communicated by text while she was still conscious (I still have all those text messages), so she knew that I loved her and I am thankful I was able to be by her side when she was removed from life support and passed away. I still believe I had legitimate reasons to be angry with my sister but there isn't a day that goes by that I don't regret letting my anger get in the way of my relationship with my sister. I hope eventually William and Harry are able to overcome their anger.

 

[Barbara Manatee]

In normal families kids can and do rebel against their parents. But G/C/L are kids of the future king. If the future king (Will) wants to have nothing to do with Archie and Lil, why would G/C/L go against that?

Oh my, royal children have a long, long history of rebelling against their parents. Exhibit A: Harry.

 

[Karen-W]

In normal families kids can and do rebel against their parents. But G/C/L are kids of the future king. If the future king (Will) wants to have nothing to do with Archie and Lil, why would G/C/L go against that?

You're still failing to adequately explain WHY William would want to have nothing to do with Archie & Lilibet. 100% I get him not wanting to have anything to do with Harry & Meghan, but I find it hard to believe that he's going to give his niece and nephew the cold shoulder and no chance at all to know their cousins or prove that, like Beatrice & Eugenie, they're nothing like their parents.

 

[becca]

You're still failing to adequately explain WHY William would want to have nothing to do with Archie & Lilibet. 100% I get him not wanting to have anything to do with Harry & Meghan, but I find it hard to believe that he's going to give his niece and nephew the cold shoulder and no chance at all to know their cousins or prove that, like Beatrice & Eugenie, they're nothing like their parents.

Yeah I don’t see that either I think when they are young they are going to be hard to have a relationship with because they come with parents but that doesn’t mean when they are older they won’t have a relationship with.

I literally have several Aunts who have no relationship with my parents right now due to issues with them but I still have a relationship.

 

[millyskate]

Personally, I'd rather have someone like Harry in my family than Andrew. Yes, Harry is saying things publicly that I don't think are any of the public's business but he suffers from mental trauma and I think, what he does is forgivable. I don't think there is any excuse for what Andrew did.

Both points can stand. One may disapprove of Andrew much more. In practice, on a day to day basis, Harry causes more difficulties and personal distress.
The comparison with Andrew always baffles me. Someone may be a horrendous criminal, but if they are not directing their crimes towards you it is possible to organise practical activities in their presence regardless of what one thinks of what they have done.
Even if someone's worst offense is verbal, if you are their relentless target then yes, your relationship to them will suffer more.

I'm pretty sure everyone gets it, really.

 

[puglover]

Also, Prince Andrew has two daughters and their families who seem to be well liked by everybody. Princess Eugenie, especially, seems to be warm and friendly and is friends with Harry and Meghan but also William and Kate. Whatever individual family members may think privately of Prince Andrew, I would think they would not want to cause his two daughters any more hurt by how they react to him at family functions.

 

[MacMadame]

The Netherlands went to great lengths to protect Prince Harry and Meghan instead of protecting their crown princess

Princess Amalia: Security fears force Dutch princess from student home

Her parents gave details in an emotional encounter with the press, during a state visit to Sweden.

www.bbc.com

There is absolutely nothing in that story that even suggests that.

 

[MacMadame]

Harry's real choice was not to walk away but to do it half time.

He asked to do it half-time. And was turned down. So it wasn't a real choice at all.

 

[ballettmaus]

Harry isn’t the only person with trauma

Of course, he isn't, but everyone deals with trauma differently. Even if they were treated in exactly the same way and had been of the same age when Diana died, chances are, they would react differently simply because they're different people. But they weren't treated in the same way and they were of different ages. So, I don't think it's a valid argument to say "but William".

I think giving Harry a total pass for his behavior based on past trauma isn't fair because William suffered the same trauma.

Again, see above. They're two different people.

With that said, I'm not saying Harry should be given a total pass, as in, I don't think he's blameless and if he were a member of my family, I wouldn't forgive him unconditionally/if I didn't see that he's aware of the responsibility he bears. Mostly, I just think that what Harry did is in no way comparable to what Andrew did.

Both points can stand. One may disapprove of Andrew much more. In practice, on a day to day basis, Harry causes more difficulties and personal distress.

Does he cause more difficulties, though? The palace doesn't comment on anything anyway.

He likely hurt more people, although, I don't know what I would do if I learned that my father had sexual relations with an underaged girl who was just a few years older than I was at the time. It's unimaginable for me as it is likely for most children, however, once I got over the denial, I probably wouldn't want anything to do with him anymore.

The comparison with Andrew always baffles me. Someone may be a horrendous criminal, but if they are not directing their crimes towards you it is possible to organise practical activities in their presence regardless of what one thinks of what they have done.

Andrew didn't just steal a purse, though. He sexually assaulted an underage girl. Why would anyone want to organize practical activities in the presence of a sexual predator?

Also, Prince Andrew has two daughters and their families who seem to be well liked by everybody. Princess Eugenie, especially, seems to be warm and friendly and is friends with Harry and Meghan but also William and Kate. Whatever individual family members may think privately of Prince Andrew, I would think they would not want to cause his two daughters any more hurt by how they react to him at family functions.

I understand that these dynamics are complex and that there are a lot of emotions involved and that it's never as easy as Beatrice and Eugenie have a choice. Still, just like with addicts, I don't think they are respectful to the other family members is an excuse that justifies keeping Andrew included.

 

[canbelto]

I think among a certain type of aristocrat banging underage girls is less of a sin than marrying a black woman.

 

[airgelaal]

There is absolutely nothing in that story that even suggests that.

Really? The country cannot provide a sufficient level of protection for its princess, so she was almost under house arrest. But it turns out that Prince Harry, with his most terrible threats, is very safe there.

I understand that these dynamics are complex and that there are a lot of emotions involved and that it's never as easy as Beatrice and Eugenie have a choice. Still, just like with addicts, I don't think they are respectful to the other family members is an excuse that justifies keeping Andrew included.

And what should be done with Andrew? Should he be completely excluded from the family? He will be so upset that he will hide in some wilderness and pray that everyone will forget about him. In my opinion, a more realistic option is that he will begin to bring even more scandals and troubles to the family.
Any person who has such an unpleasant relative in the family immediately recognizes the pattern of behavior. And he also knows that not everything is so simple in the family.

 

[becca]

Of course, he isn't, but everyone deals with trauma differently. Even if they were treated in exactly the same way and had been of the same age when Diana died, chances are, they would react differently simply because they're different people. But they weren't treated in the same way and they were of different ages. So, I don't think it's a valid argument to say "but William".


Again, see above. They're two different people.

With that said, I'm not saying Harry should be given a total pass, as in, I don't think he's blameless and if he were a member of my family, I wouldn't forgive him unconditionally/if I didn't see that he's aware of the responsibility he bears. Mostly, I just think that what Harry did is in no way comparable to what Andrew did.


Does he cause more difficulties, though? The palace doesn't comment on anything anyway.

He likely hurt more people, although, I don't know what I would do if I learned that my father had sexual relations with an underaged girl who was just a few years older than I was at the time. It's unimaginable for me as it is likely for most children, however, once I got over the denial, I probably wouldn't want anything to do with him anymore.


Andrew didn't just steal a purse, though. He sexually assaulted an underage girl. Why would anyone want to organize practical activities in the presence of a sexual predator?


I understand that these dynamics are complex and that there are a lot of emotions involved and that it's never as easy as Beatrice and Eugenie have a choice. Still, just like with addicts, I don't think they are respectful to the other family members is an excuse that justifies keeping Andrew

He is their family member.. I am not okay with Andrew’s actions and the company he kept is not okay..

I was going to ask if this was one time incident but he was regular visitor in the island. Yeah I would want nothing to do with him

 

[MacMadame]

Really? The country cannot provide a sufficient level of protection for its princess, so she was almost under house arrest. But it turns out that Prince Harry, with his most terrible threats, is very safe there.

This is a false equivalence as they are not in the same position.

Also, you are assuming that because nothing happened to Harry it's because he was kept safe by the government and not because he had his own security, was lucky or no one wanted to hurt him.

You have no idea what they did to make sure Harry was safe if anything, and you don't know that what they did to keep Harry safe caused the princess to be unsafe. Which is what you said originally. And is extremely unlikely.

 

[airgelaal]

To be honest, I think that Harry is not given exclusive protection anywhere. But for some reason he believes that in UK he and his family are the most unsafe.
Although no, I think I understand why he thinks so. Harry is sure that he and Megan are loved everywhere. Except UK. In the UK, there is an evil Camila, a firm and tabloids that turn everyone against him. Oh yeah, well, there are racists too.

 

[Husky]

They are non-working royals like Princess Beatrice and Eugenie but really not like them at all. This is one of the far reaching results of the decision to not remain as full-time working royals. They really do need a special category for them but exceptions are usually problematic and I can understand the reluctance to set a precedence. No easy solutions and I do feel for Harry on this one.

I would base security measures on necessity. Even criminals get armed security if they are witnesses during a mobster trial. Or isn't this practised in UK? This whole debate looks weird, as if it's about punishment.

 

[Karen-W]

There are some major differences between Catharina-Amalia and Harry's security needs in the Netherlands.

1) Prince Harry was in the Netherlands for a limited period of time, with a predetermined itinerary. Amalia is a student and intended on living in central Amsterdam in student housing while attending university. The security requirements for a short visit by Harry are far different than the security requirements of a university student who attends classes and has the expectation of freedom to go out with friends to concerts, class meetings, or clubs/bars.

2) The threats against Amalia's life are from a specific crime syndicate which have demonstrated an ability from behind bars to harm people who have helped put them in jail. That's not to say that there aren't similarly well-funded and connected individuals who would like Harry dead for his active military service, but, again, Harry was in the Netherlands for a brief stay and it's a lot easier to protect him from any credible threats for that limited length of time than it is to constantly need to protect the crown princess of the nation.