toe walley vs. toe loop; walleys

[Sylvia]

There are toe walley threads in the Archives so here's a new thread.

Walley is an edge jump that takes off the back inside edge. We see single walleys now and then as a connecting move -- it is not a "listed jump" in the IJS scale of values.
Toe walleys, like toe loops, are toe jumps.
Toe walley would generally be done by turning a FO three and then putting the other foot down onto an inside edge rather than an outside edge as for a toe loop from the FO three entry. In either case, the skater would then pick with the now-free foot.
However, most examples we see in competition the skater actually did step onto a back outside edge, so it really was a toe loop after all.
Hence the decision early in the history of the Zayak rule to consider toe walley and toe loop the same jump for purposes of allowed repetitions.
I don't know offhand of a good example of a true triple toe walley.

Here is a clear example of a single toe walley off an obvious inside edge, without a turn preceding.

And here is a video showing half toe walley, single toe walley (with the preceding three turn and change of foot, but shallow/unclear takeoff edge), and single walley, to show the difference between toe walley and walley.

It's correctly spelled "walley" after the inventor, Nathaniel Walley.

If you search youtube for "walley jump" you can find several videos demonstrating the (single) jump.

When I have more time, maybe in a more relevant thread, I could find some good examples of single walleys in elite programs.

How to teach a walley in 10 minutes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0lA15RW8gw

ETA - found an old post of mine in the Archives:

A Walley is done off a back inside edge without a toe assist -- for counterclockwise rotators it would be a RBI edge entry and landing on the RBO edge.

From the now-defunct Skateweb:

"BO edge, counter rotation, no toe: toeless lutz (rare)"

 

[bardtoob]

Michelle Kwan had an incredibly distinct 3TW-3T combination where she is clearly on the inside edge for the first jump and clearly on the outside edge for the second jump.

Michelle Kwan (USA) - 2000 World Figure Skating Championships, Ladies' Free Skate (US, ABC)

..Nice, FRANCE - 2000 World Figure Skating Championships, Ladies' Free Skate - Vanessa Gusmeroli of France. Commentators were Terry Gannon, Dick Button and...

youtu.be

Michelle Kwan - 2001 World Figure Skating Championships - Long Program

Music: Song of the Black Swan by Villa-Lobos and Dumky Trio by Dvorak

youtu.be

Roslyn Sumners had a 3TW that you can see clearly on slow motion but she enters her jumps very quickly, so it can be hard to see.

Rosalynn Sumners (USA) - 1984 Sarajevo, Figure Skating, Ladies' Long Program

Sarajevo, YUGOSLAVIA - 1984 Winter Games, Figure Skating, Ladies' Long Program - Rosalynn Sumners of the United States did not make any major errors except p...

youtu.be

Robin Cousins had a 3TW.

Robin Cousins - 1980 European Figure Skating Championships FS

Robin's rarely seen European performance in 1980. He is interviewed afterwards by his countryman and predecessor as Olympic champion, John Curry. Not Robin's...

youtu.be

 

[On My Own]

Michelle Kwan had an incredibly distinct 3TW-3T combination where she is clearly on the inside edge for the first jump and clearly on the outside edge for the second jump.

Not really though? She starts off an inside, I'll give you that, but by the time she picks in, she's clearly on RBO.

We can call it 3TW(e)+3T maybe, but not really 3TW+3T.

ETA: Same for Sumners...

 

[bardtoob]

Not really though? She starts off an inside, I'll give you that, but by the time she picks in, she's clearly on RBO.

We can call it 3TW(e)+3T maybe, but not really 3TW+3T.

She gets off the edge very quick, so I think it is more a ! than an e.

To get the true counterrotation, you would have to glide straight back and pick with your free leg about inline with your skating leg, like a lutz. Nobody every really did that.

 

[On My Own]

She gets off the edge very quick, so I think it is more a ! than an e.

To get the true counterrotation, you would have to glide straight back and pick with your free leg about inline with your skating leg, like a lutz. Nobody every really did that.

That's a good point. I do wonder if the TP cares about these things like momentum when going into a jump. As an example, I think a Lutz that remains on a shallow outside through take off will have less counter-rotation compared to a Lutz that begins on a deep outside but ends up on a shallow or moderate inside edge by the time the person picks in and vaults straight up afterwards without spending too much time on the inside. While under the current rules the second jump would be 'e', a (!) might be more justifiable based on momentum.

I think they also make mistakes on flip calls, because they don't notice things like where the knee is leaning into, and just go by how the boot "looks" placed to them...

 

[gkelly]

As an example, I think a Lutz that remains on a shallow outside through take off will have less counter-rotation compared to a Lutz that begins on a deep outside but ends up on a shallow or moderate inside edge by the time the person picks in and vaults straight up afterwards without spending too much time on the inside. While under the current rules the second jump would be 'e', a (!) might be more justifiable based on momentum.

Good point.

I think they also make mistakes on flip calls, because they don't notice things like where the knee is leaning into, and just go by how the boot "looks" placed to them...

I think they're looking at the blade more than at the boot. Which, as noted above, doesn't really address whether there was any counterrotation. But I don't think the knee itself would be more accurate.

 

[On My Own]

I think they're looking at the blade more than at the boot. Which, as noted above, doesn't really address whether there was any counterrotation. But I don't think the knee itself would be more accurate.

I brought up the knee because if the knee leans into the circle, like when you are on the Lbi lobe, then it's at least much more likely that you're on an inside edge. I agree it won't be the most accurate even then, but right now I don't even get some of the flip (!) calls.

 

[orbitz]

Janet Lynn's double toe-walley. The inside edge take-off is very clear here.

 

[On My Own]

Janet Lynn's double toe-walley. The inside edge take-off is very clear here.

AND a great Lutz, despite being another who was supposed to be bad at figures...

 

[On My Own]

"BO edge, counter rotation, no toe: toeless lutz (rare)"

Well my request for one is still 100% open. It's pretty much a mythical beast in my mind, even though it's supposed to exist.

 

[screech]

Jackie Wong noted in his 4CC play by play that Keegan Messing does a walley for his quad toe. He picks so quickly once he changes feet that it can be hard to see, but once Jackie pointed it out, it was very clear to me.
Video, and another angle of the same one. Another angle of a different quad toe (from the same program)

 

[On My Own]

Jackie Wong noted in his 4CC play by play that Keegan Messing does a walley for his quad toe. He picks so quickly once he changes feet that it can be hard to see, but once Jackie pointed it out, it was very clear to me.
Video, and another angle of the same one. Another angle of a different quad toe (from the same program)

None of them are really real I guess, but this one does make me think the reason for the LFO-LBI-change of foot set up to a toe loop came about as a way to give the skaters an "easier" body position with which they can vault and snap into rotation...

 

[gkelly]

Jackie Wong noted in his 4CC play by play that Keegan Messing does a walley for his quad toe.

A quad TOE walley?

Or a single (edge) walley as a transition into the quad toe?

Again, a "quad toe" (or triple toe, etc.) can be either a quad toe walley or a quad toe loop. It cannot be a "walley," which is an edge jump and almost never done with more than 1 revolution.

A very rare double WALLEY

 

[On My Own]

A very rare double WALLEY

That looks fantastic!

 

[gkelly]

Some IJS-era single walleys as transitions:

E. LYSACEK - 2006 OLYMPIC GAMES - FS

EVAN LYSACEK - 2006 OLYMPIC GAMES - FS

www.youtube.com

More recently:

Shunsuke NAKAMURA (JPN) | Men Short Program | Torino 2022 | #JGPFigure

To license ISU footage: https://bit.ly/3M7bcaFVisit https://isu.org/JuniorGrandPrix for more information on the ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating.Courc...

www.youtube.com

Chaeyeon KIM (KOR) | Women Short Program | Torino 2022 | #JGPFigure

To license ISU footage: https://bit.ly/3M7bcaFVisit https://isu.org/JuniorGrandPrix for more information on the ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating.Courc...

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[briancoogaert]

Surya Bonaly often did a walley as transition before 3 Salchow
Wally half-loop 3 Salchow :

Surya Bonaly (FRA) - 1995 European Figure Skating Championships, Ladies' Free Skate

Dortmund, GERMANY - 1995 European Figure Skating Championships, Ladies' Free Skate - Surya Bonaly of France won the European Title.

youtu.be

 

[delayedaxel]

How would a lutz without toepick even work? Has it ever been recorded?

 

[bardtoob]

Wally half-loop 3 Salchow

Loop half-loop 3 Salchow

 

[On My Own]

Some IJS-era single walleys as transitions:

What do you expect would happen if they take the walley off an outside edge by accident?

 

[gkelly]

What do you expect would happen if they take the walley off an outside edge by accident?

It would be a loop with the free foot behind.

Or if it were a listed jump called by the tech panel, it could be called as walley with an e or ! call.

 

[On My Own]

It would be a loop with the free foot behind.

So it would occupy a jump box wouldn't it? Or would the TP be more discerning and "allow" it, simply thinking of it as an incorrectly performed transition?

 

[gkelly]

As long as walleys are unlisted jumps, the tech panel isn't going to scrutinize them or call them as elements.

Eulers as transitional moves don't get called as 1Lo or 1Eu either.

I think it would be cool to add double and triple walley to the Scale of Values. If so, then those would fill boxes and be subject to edge calls.

 

[On My Own]

Oh one more! Can someone currently attempt a jump+Eu+toe walley or walley (rotating in the opposite direction than they are used to)? I guess not walley because it has no value, but toe walley and toe loop have no difference, so I'm curious there.

 

[gkelly]

Oh one more! Can someone currently attempt a jump+Eu+toe walley or walley (rotating in the opposite direction than they are used to)? I guess not walley because it has no value, but toe walley and toe loop have no difference, so I'm curious there.

I guess it would be legal to do a 3T (inside takeoff) in the opposite direction after an Euler, but under the current rules there's no extra reward for doing so, and the GOE would likely be lower, so why bother?

 

[delayedaxel]

A little bit off topic, but does anyone happen to know what exactly the Oppacher (jump) is? Thanks!

 

[On My Own]

Where did you see the name?

A google book I found claims Ernst Oppacher of Austria invented the one-foot Axel. https://books.google.com/books?id=2EQZoKnMN7gC&pg=PA196&lpg=PA196&dq=Oppacher+jump+skating

 

[Sylvia]

A little bit off topic, but does anyone happen to know what exactly the Oppacher (jump) is? Thanks!

Named for Austrian Ernst Oppacher? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Oppacher
Just did a quick search online but couldn't find any info on this jump.

 

[bardtoob]

Where did you see the name?

A google book I found claims Ernst Oppacher of Austria invented the one-foot Axel. https://books.google.com/books?id=2EQZoKnMN7gC&pg=PA196&lpg=PA196&dq=Oppacher+jump+skating

The one-footed Axel is often called the Colledge as it is widely credited to Cecelia Colledge, the skater that introduced the layback spin and camel spin, among other innovations, to challenge Sonia Henie's dominance, and it nearly worked at the 1936 Olympics*.

However, this naming is not universally accepted on the grounds that the jump is first and foremost an Axel, and needs no other name just because the landing foot is different.

* Cecelia was so close to Sonia after compulsory figures that Cecelia only needed to win the freeskate to win, which was considered unimaginable. Apparently Sonia saw the results posted and broke character by throwing a tantrum and tearing down the results. Well, the next day, in the most improbable of "happenstances", the skating order was posted and Cecelia was nearly first to skate among ALL THE SKATERS while Sonia was LAST. This meant the judges had to save room above Cecelia's marks and had to sit through every other skater before their now clouded memories had to decide if the spectacular Sonia Henie was better than some skater they had seen hours before.

 

[On My Own]

* Cecelia was so close to Sonia after compulsory figures that Cecelia only needed to win the freeskate to win, which was considered unimaginable. Apparently Sonia saw the results posted and broke character by throwing a tantrum and tearing down the results. Well, the next day, in the most improbable of "happenstances", the skating order was posted and Cecelia was first to skate among ALL THE SKATERS while Sonia was LAST. This meant the judges had to save room above Cecelia's marks and had to sit through every other skater before their now clouded memories had to decide if the spectacular Sonia Henie was better than some skater they had seen hours before.

Well. Henie did have a certain kind of connection.

 

[On My Own]

The one-footed Axel is often called the Colledge as it is widely credited to Cecelia Colledge, the skater that introduced the layback spin and camel spin, among other innovations, to challenge Sonia Henie's dominance, and it nearly worked at the 1936 Olympics*.

Her wikipedia entry claims SHE invented the one-foot axel, so does that mean the google book is wrong? It's by John Misha Petkevich, but the source in wikipedia for Colledge also has a credited publication...