Slate | The Once Unthinkable Revolution Coming to Figure Skating

[gkelly]

As pair skating has developed, difficult acrobatic overhead lifts, including twist lifts, have become a significant part of the discipline.

They are among the most visually spectacular and therefore among the most popular with fans of the discipline, including casual fans.

And those elements rely on a significant size difference with a very high degree of strength required from the lifting partner. (Also from the lifted partner, but in different ways.)

A tall strong woman might be able to lift a tiny woman well enough to meet the current required elements for novice level and above. But they would not be able to match the difficulty levels achieved by tall strong men paired with tiny women.

Some of that disadvantage could be overcome by pairing tall strong adult women with pre-growth-spurt small girls. But there would be other issues with that approach, especially with the new age limits that might prevent such teams from competing at either junior or senior level. (Or novice, internationally or in any federation that follows ISU novice age rules.)

It would also defeat the purpose of allowing two girls or two women who are friends and age peers and of more medium size/body type for their age group to compete together in this discipline. If indeed that is expected to be one of the purposes.

A discipline that focuses on side-by-side singles moves, on-ice pair moves such as pair spins and death spirals/pivot spirals, and more dance-type lifts would be more accommodating to increasing participation by female-female teams. As well as for male-male or mixed-gender teams with lower size differences.

Should the whole discipline of pairs be changed in that direction, with the high-flying tricks no longer rewarded or allowed for anyone including the large man/small women teams that already exist?

Or should there be at least two separate freestyle couple disciplines, one that relies on extreme size/strength difference and another that rewards more on-ice skills and lower lifts (perhaps with bonuses for teams that switch off which partner takes on the lifting duties)?

 

[VGThuy]

Plus, I think skating has gotten kind of stale or at least stagnated in terms of variety of skills that can be scored. It's time we find new ways of opening up IJS.

 

[Icetalavista]

Introducing the incredible new dance pair: Baker and Gibson. You just won't know who to look at!!!

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

, I think y'all are nuts if you think you'll see these sort of partnerships competing at Worlds or the Olympics in the next quarter century.

and yet I’m fielding calls from Frangi and Poirier right now

 

[SidelineSkater]

and yet I’m fielding calls from Frangi and Poirier right now

From them or their legal representatives?

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

From them or their legal representatives?

it’s very under wraps right now, very hush-hush, very on a needs to know basis

 

[Sylvia]

AnythingGOEs' livestream earlier today with Kaitlyn Weaver focused on issues in Talia Barringon's Slate article, starting at this point (from ~6 mins. until 25:55): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgKzPlVB1gA&t=370s

 

[Karen-W]

it’s very under wraps right now, very hush-hush, very on a needs to know basis

Which, loosely translated, means ANL is fighting the restraining orders placed by each man on him.

 

[azcalder]

I clicked on her name and got this: https://slate.com/author/talia-barrington

The author is Jordan Cowan's wife. (On Ice Perspectives)

 

[MacMadame]

I clicked on her name and got this: https://slate.com/author/talia-barrington

Thanks. I clicked on her website and it only said ballroom dancer.

Personally, I think y'all are nuts if you think you'll see these sort of partnerships competing at Worlds or the Olympics in the next quarter century. Figure skating is far too conservative of a sport for any kind of rapid change to the existing gender structures within the elite levels of the sport. It will be an oddity that appears in shows and in some videos that perhaps go viral, but it will take a loooong time for this to gain any traction.

Personally, I think y'all are focusing too much on the elites. In the US, for every female you see at Nationals, there are tens of thousands more that you will never see. Most of them get to a certain level in the sport, realize they will never be competitive at singles or get a partner for dance/pairs and drop out of skating. Synchro, Theater on Ice, and Solo Dance are all things that either didn't exist until recently or are being emphasized more now. Having gender-neutral pairs and dance teams is yet another outlet for the serious, but essentially recreational, skater. It's also another outlet for the elite but waiting for a partner skater.

We will see these events at local comps way before we see them at ISU events. Or probably even at Skate Canada Nationals. But if it becomes popular enough, it will seep up into higher and higher levels.

Will it replace Pairs and Dance as we know them? I don't know. I think it depends on what people do with it. If what they do is compelling enough, it will change. But I also think we'll see teams that can do these acrobatic moves.

What if Nathan Chen and Timothy LeDuc get together? They have a 7" height difference and are both strong. I bet Timothy could lift Nathan as as high they did Ashley. I mean Nathan and Ashley were the same height.

 

[Rukia]

I am begging people to stop trying to limit what skaters can do without even letting them try. Who's to say a woman can't lift another woman?? Your preconceived notions are just that. I bet you'll be surprised at what will happen when you give these athletes half a chance.

 

[emilieh]

Strong and tall women exist in plenty of other sports!! If they are involved in skating when they are young, then they are pushed out of skating as soon as they grow because they don't fit the mold.

An anecdote - I had a classmate who was an incredibly tall and strong woman. She looked like a division I college athlete. I remember her talking about how she was pushed into basketball and volleyball when she was in high school because of her height, but she hated traditional team sports. She just wanted to dance, but was constantly told that she didn't have the right look. I am thinking of her, imagining what she might have been able to bring to the table as a lifting partner in a skating team.

 

[Orm Irian]

I am begging people to stop trying to limit what skaters can do without even letting them try. Who's to say a woman can't lift another woman?? Your preconceived notions are just that. I bet you'll be surprised at what will happen when you give these athletes half a chance.

THIS.

Don't think categories. Think individuals. Individuals will always surprise you.

If we fixate on categories all we're doing is telling the tall girls with broad shoulders who got the message very early on that there was no place in figure skating for girls who looked like them and that they should go and play ice hockey instead that there's still no place in figure skating for girls who look like them, no matter what the rules say. But some of those girls might still have dreams about figure skating, and if they do they deserve the chance to put on some sparkles and yeet the local daredevil fairy princess type halfway down the rink on a daily basis if she's agreeable, no matter what people assume women as a category can or can't do.

 

[alexikeguchi]

Sorry, but no. Not every female is 5'4 or less and doesn't strength train.

There is no reason a tall woman couldn't lift a tiny woman. Or a tall non-binary person couldn't lift a short person of any gender.


Or just open up skating to more body types that can do typical pair elements.

I remember an interview with Allison Janney, probably in relation to "I, Tonya," where she said that her initial passion was figure skating and that she was actually pretty decent. She's the same height as most Pairs men and looks pretty athletic, so I'd bet she could perform the male role for most pairs elements.

Personally, I think y'all are focusing too much on the elites. In the US, for every female you see at Nationals, there are tens of thousands more that you will never see. Most of them get to a certain level in the sport, realize they will never be competitive at singles or get a partner for dance/pairs and drop out of skating. Synchro, Theater on Ice, and Solo Dance are all things that either didn't exist until recently or are being emphasized more now. Having gender-neutral pairs and dance teams is yet another outlet for the serious, but essentially recreational, skater.

We will see these events at local comps way before we see them at ISU events.

In the late '70s, when I was a very good but recreational skater, our internal SCNY competitions had a pairs category. The pairs were exclusively girls because there were like three boys in the whole club who stuck with the sport long enough to reach the same skill level on individual elements.

 

[ice coverage]

This topic reminds me of Lauren Gibbs, who won World gold and Olympic silver as a bobsled push athlete.
Her Team USA bio says that she is 5' 10" tall.
"Lauren’s first athletic loves were soccer and figure skating, and she played varsity volleyball at Brown," per another bio.

On her Olympic journey in bobsledding, Lauren became good friends with many figure skaters who were Olympic hopefuls and/or Olympians.
In the just-for-fun 2017 video below, Lauren quickly gets the hang of lifting Tarah Kayne off ice -- watch to the end.

(I also vaguely recall a different female Team USA Olympian lifting Alex Johnson off ice, but I can't find this other just-for-fun video that was on social media years ago. IIRC, they were indoors at OPTC in Colorado Springs, but I can't remember her name or sport.)

Lauren Gibbs lifting Tarah Kayne:

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https://www.instagram.com/p/BVkJPs1hywt/​

 

[Pink Cats]

For some elements a size/weight difference will be advantageous, perhaps even necessary, no matter the genders of the performers. Overhead lifts in pairs, for example.

We see this in cheerleading and acrobatic troops, whether mixed or same gender. It's almost always one of the smaller people who is thrown, catapulted, or ends up balanced on top of the pyramid.

Yes, but I think the point here is that decreasing the emphasis on what we consider “typical pair elements” now might also help open the sport to more body types. Even if we take gender out of the equation, the way pairs is scored right now still favors a significant size difference between the partners. And since there’s a practical limit on how many very tall or very muscular lifting partners are going to be able to land consistent triples, that tends to lead to one partner being very small instead. IMO this is one of the biggest issues limiting the development of pairs skating, and just opening up the sport to all genders wouldn’t completely fix it. Change the scoring so that we’re not incentivizing extreme size differences so much, and we might see more skaters who fall somewhere in the middle of the size spectrum. Plus, skaters would have more options in terms of potential partners.

I think the one element that would be extremely hard for a pair of women is the triple twist. I don't see the throw jumps or overhead lifts being as difficult a hurdle to overcome.

The issue is of course that the pressure on the smaller partner to stay at or below a certain weight could lead to more eating disorders.

 

[overedge]

I think the one element that would be extremely hard for a pair of women is the triple twist. I don't see the throw jumps or overhead lifts being as difficult a hurdle to overcome.

A triple twist doesn't have to be one of the elements. The rules aren't set in stone. People created the rules, and people can change them.

The issue is of course that the pressure on the smaller partner to stay at or below a certain weight could lead to more eating disorders.

It can, and it does.

 

[overedge]

I remember an interview with Allison Janney, probably in relation to "I, Tonya," where she said that her initial passion was figure skating and that she was actually pretty decent. She's the same height as most Pairs men and looks pretty athletic, so I'd bet she could perform the male role for most pairs elements.

She talks about being a skater in this interview. Her dad owned a building with an ice rink in it, and she could skate whenever she wanted! https://www.heraldscotland.com/life...janney-ice-skating-drama-tonya-picking-bafta/

 

[ellenpuff]

A triple twist doesn't have to be one of the elements. The rules aren't set in stone. People created the rules, and people can change them.

Changing the rules to accommodate all-female pairs is a slippery slope—and to be frank, reeks of blatant tokenism.

The twist has been the most important moves in pairs figure skating for 40 years. Devaluing the twist to accommodate same-sex pairs would be akin to eliminating the triple lutz in ladies because no American girl could do a lutz off a true outside edge for 20 years.

If two females want to compete in pairs, go ahead and let them, but we shouldn't have to change the sport to accommodate their needs or shortcomings. It's a slap in the face to every other pairs team in the world, regardless of their level.

remember an interview with Allison Janney, probably in relation to "I, Tonya," where she said that her initial passion was figure skating and that she was actually pretty decent. She's the same height as most Pairs men and looks pretty athletic, so I'd bet she could perform the male role for most pairs elements.

This seems like quite the stretch.

 

[jamesy]

You're right this sport should never try to grow or change or be more inclusive.

Did y'all clutch your pearls this hard when ice dance was introduced? "Where are the jumps?!??!?"

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

You're right this sport should never try to grow or change or be more inclusive.

Did y'all clutch your pearls this hard when ice dance was introduced? "Where are the jumps?!??!?"

Here here , I can’t wait until three men can skate together, me, Hektor and Donahue

 

[MsZem]

I don't think that pairs or dance elements should be changed, but I'd be more than happy to see same-sex partnerships in both disciplines

It's definitely feasible in ice dance; the hardest part would be the lifts, and it's hardly unprecedented for women in ice dance to manage those - even as a scoring element. As for pairs, if anyone manages it, good for them! Or this could just be more inclusive of NB skaters than the current terminology.

 

[overedge]

Changing the rules to accommodate all-female pairs is a slippery slope—and to be frank, reeks of blatant tokenism.

The twist has been the most important moves in pairs figure skating for 40 years. Devaluing the twist to accommodate same-sex pairs would be akin to eliminating the triple lutz in ladies because no American girl could do a lutz off a true outside edge for 20 years.

If two females want to compete in pairs, go ahead and let them, but we shouldn't have to change the sport to accommodate their needs or shortcomings. It's a slap in the face to every other pairs team in the world, regardless of their level.

There are plenty of male-female pairs teams who can't do triple twists either. And they aren't getting to national/international events because of it, while they could be excelling at other elements.

Eliminating the triple twist or lessening its value isn't tokenism. It's a way to open up the sport to more teams, regardless of their genders. Something being part of the sport for decades is not a valid reason to retain it forever.

 

[KaitlynB123]

I think that will be great! Besides solo dancing, same gender teams pair and ice dance will be awesome!

 

[On My Own]

Did y'all clutch your pearls this hard when ice dance was introduced? "Where are the jumps?!??!?"

Wasn't born till 30 years later, but would be stunned at the level of illiteracy if people felt the introduction of a new discipline is the same as devaluing elements in a sport for the sake of 'inclusion'.

Also find it incredibly condescending to the all-female pair, as if because they factually can't do it, so we're patting them on their heads and giving them a free medal. If you don't do well at a sport, then you don't do well at it. You're not entitled to winning and being 'included'. Suck it up and get that medal or find a different avenue you're good at.

---
I'd love same gender ice dance. IDGAF about same gender pairs. Whatever.

 

[VGThuy]

You bet your butt other sports adopt things in order to increase participation because that’s the only way a sport survives. Gymnastics opened up itself to all sorts of changes to help competitors of more body types be competitive and the technical standard of the sport have never been so high.

 

[just tuned in]

TBH, I am not so stoked to see a larger woman throwing or lifting a smaller woman in a way that attempts to approximate current opposite sex pairs.

I’d be more interested in having another discipline for same-sex skating partners and let that develop independently. I guess initially it might look like pairs moves that women already do in synchro — death spirals and some lifts.

 

[ellenpuff]

There are plenty of male-female pairs teams who can't do triple twists either. And they aren't getting to national/international events because of it, while they could be excelling at other elements.

Eliminating the triple twist or lessening its value isn't tokenism. It's a way to open up the sport to more teams, regardless of their genders. Something being part of the sport for decades is not a valid reason to retain it forever.

Then these female-female teams may do a double or single twist instead and make up points elsewhere.

I’d be more interested in having another discipline for same-sex skating partners and let that develop independently. I guess initially it might look like pairs moves that women already do in synchro — death spirals and some lifts.

I like this suggestion and approach. No need to rewrite the pairs rulebook to accommodate a small number of female-female teams. The sport can be inclusive and even expand the reach of the sport.

 

[overedge]

Then these female-female teams may do a double or single twist instead and make up points elsewhere.

You ignored the part of my post that pointed out that many male-female teams can't do a triple twist either.

 

[coppertop1]

I'm all for this. This might also help lessen the power imbalances and abuse that plague this sport.

It's 2023. Yet, so many people here seem to be stuck in the past.