Russian Figure Skater tests positive for drugs - delays ceremony for team medals

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She doesn't dispute that she was doped, but she did try to pin the blame on :grandpa: rather than her coach.

I strongly suspect that even if she didn't understand how implausible her story was a year ago, she does now. Not that she's going to say so. :shuffle:
The smiley is so :cheer:

I am sure she knew how ridiculous her story was even a year ago, but at the time the most important thing for her was to at least try to come up with a decent line-to-take so that she could compete at the Olympics / play victim.
 
And who here has argued that those around her shouldn't be held responsible?

But who exactly should be responsible? Yes, it's easy to assume it was all Tutberidze's/the Doctor's doing, but a fact that keeps being left out of this whole thing is that skaters can be tested randomly at at any time during the year, not just during competitions. So if one were to believe Tutberidze had an entire schedule down and accidentally mis-dosed or overdosed Kamila too close to Nationals, that still doesn't explain why other skaters in her camp/on the Russian team have (except for a few cases) never tested positive any other time. [BTW- I don't know how often, if at all, they actually were tested but it still remains a possibility]

No one knows what Kamila's 24/7 schedule was, and it could very well be that her parents (or grandpa..) thought they had the secret to her success. Or it could be Tutberidze and she's managed to somehow get several of her previous students to trash her without saying a word about doping. I know she herself has talked about it in the past. But if one were to think this was a state-sponsored, across the board advantage, I'd ask you to sit through any mens free skate in recent history and explain why most of them crawl through their sloppy programs after 2 minutes :lol:
I thought about that too and don't have an answer. A few things to think about though:

  • When they are randomly tested (outside of competition), are the samples collected by Russian officials or international officials?
  • How loose is the testing? Could a skater simply pour some clean urine that she had hidden in her pocket into the tube while the official looked away? I doubt the officials had the right to look directly at the skaters while they pee? Especially for minors?
  • Does an adult have to be present for testing of a minor? Could that adult assist in any way?
  • Are the samples always tested in Russian labs or international labs? Who are these labs sponsored / funded by?
  • How confidential is the random testing schedule?
  • How quickly can someone rinse out or neutralize traces of dosage from a skater's body once they are notified of an upcoming random test?
  • Is it possible that someone got hold of something that can effectively rinse out / neutralize the dose much quicker than WADA can acknowledge? Whether for the skater to drink or to be dropped directly into the sample?

Kamila was winning competitions left and right for about two / three years at that point, I doubt anyone would purposely dope her hoping she would't get tested. My feeling is it is more likely that they are doping her knowing she can escape a positive test through whatever means. I know it's unfair to think that without actual proof but I just don't buy the :grandpa: story. And you are right, the Russian men have always been :fragile: so it is more likely that this is a Team Eteri formula more so than a Russian formula. T&M somehow finally got it together for once after switching to Team Eteri.

Just my guess.
 
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I thought about that too and don't have an answer. A few things to think about though:
Some of this stuff is on record. Here is what I remember
  • When they are randomly tested (outside of competition), are the samples collected by Russian officials or international officials?
It depends. A Russian athlete living somewhere else isn't going to have someone from RUSADA fly out to test them. It will be someone local. But in Russia, it's RUSADA as far as I know. I say that because in the US, it's someone from USADA.

  • How loose is the testing? Could a skater simply pour some clean urine that she had hidden in her pocket into the tube while the official looked away? I doubt the officials had the right to look directly at the skaters while they pee? Especially for minors?
Oh, they are watched. There are even people whose job it is to watch in competitions. The failed test was taken at Russian Nationals so she was watched.

  • Does an adult have to be present for testing of a minor? Could that adult assist in any way?
Don't know if an adult is present. But minor or not, someone watches and no one else is supposed to touch the sample but the athlete and the person collecting the sample.

  • Are the samples always tested in Russian labs or international labs? Who are these labs sponsored / funded by?
Russia lost the right to use its own labs. They have to send samples to WADA-approved labs. Valieva's sample was tested by a Swiss lab.
  • How confidential is the random testing schedule?
Very. Well, unless you are Lance Armstrong. But Valieva got tested at a competition so her test wasn't random which is part of why her getting caught is surprising. Something went wrong there as her team knew exactly when the test would happen and so should have been able to keep her from testing positive.

  • How quickly can someone rinse out or neutralize traces of dosage from a skater's body once they are notified of an upcoming random test?
It depends on the drug, the amount taken, and the size of the athlete. However, athletes are not notified of an upcoming test. The tester just shows up whenever and goes to wherever the athlete has said they will be at that day and time.

  • Is it possible that someone got hold of something that can effectively rinse out / neutralize the dose much quicker than WADA can acknowledge? Whether for the skater to drink or to be dropped directly into the sample?
No. That's why WADA bans drugs that aren't PEDs but can mask a PED. Also, just because there is no way to speed things up significantly, doesn't mean WADA is always right about how long it takes. That's how all those athletes took Meldonium in Dec and got caught in Jan when it became banned even though they had plenty of notice. Experts thought it washed out faster than it does.

And you are right, the Russian men have always been :fragile: so it is more likely that this is a Team Eteri formula more so than a Russian formula. T&M somehow finally got it together for once after switching to Team Eteri.
When Valieva got caught but her name wasn't public knowledge yet, at least one Russian coach said all the Russian coaches were in a panic wondering if it was one of their students. This implies doping is pretty common in Russian skating. The fact that their Men's program isn't producing world beaters shows that PEDs can't perform miracles. ;)
 
Major thanks to @MacMadame

So...

- If non-competition random tests and Russian competition (i.e. Nationals) tests are collected by Rusada... well I suppose this answers @tony 's query to a certain extent. If we are to believe that Russia facilitated doping at a state level, then all Russian skaters training in Russia would really only have to worry about testing / collection of samples at international competitions, for which they undoubtedly know the timetable of and can plan ahead of time. That said, the most likely reason for Kamila's test result being positive is miscalculation (timing or dosage, or both).

- Rusada lost its right to use its own labs to test its athletes only recently? If the first bullet is somewhat legit, then this second level of protection would only have been lost recently and moot since they are not sending athletes out since the war broke out.
 
Recently as in after the doping allegations post Sochi. So within the past decade - don’t remember exactly when but ever since they started competing as “neutral” athletes at the Olympics.
 
I thought about that too and don't have an answer. A few things to think about though:

  • When they are randomly tested (outside of competition), are the samples collected by Russian officials or international officials?
  • How loose is the testing? Could a skater simply pour some clean urine that she had hidden in her pocket into the tube while the official looked away? I doubt the officials had the right to look directly at the skaters while they pee? Especially for minors?
  • Does an adult have to be present for testing of a minor? Could that adult assist in any way?
  • Are the samples always tested in Russian labs or international labs? Who are these labs sponsored / funded by?
  • How confidential is the random testing schedule?
  • How quickly can someone rinse out or neutralize traces of dosage from a skater's body once they are notified of an upcoming random test?
  • Is it possible that someone got hold of something that can effectively rinse out / neutralize the dose much quicker than WADA can acknowledge? Whether for the skater to drink or to be dropped directly into the sample?

Kamila was winning competitions left and right for about two / three years at that point, I doubt anyone would purposely dope her hoping she would't get tested. My feeling is it is more likely that they are doping her knowing she can escape a positive test through whatever means. I know it's unfair to think that without actual proof but I just don't buy the :grandpa: story. And you are right, the Russian men have always been :fragile: so it is more likely that this is a Team Eteri formula more so than a Russian formula. T&M somehow finally got it together for once after switching to Team Eteri.

Just my guess.
And don't forget Elizabet Tursynbaeva rise once she switched to Eteri, her World silver????
 
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Colour me confused.


I interpret this as a face-saving move from RUSADA vis-a-vis international sports bodies, for purposes of future viability? They’re trying to maintain some shred of credibility internationally, while allowing the Russian anti-drug disciplinary committee to shoulder the blame for not sanctioning Valieva. That’s a possible theory, anyway.

 
A twelve-year-old girl won a gold medal in skateboarding at the Olympics in Tokyo in 2021. Do you really believe that she had the same wisdom as an adult?
The bigger question is-- why is a 12 year old the best in the world at anything? It's like skating skills in figure skating. Kids who are 15 or 16 have earned the same scores as say, Jason Brown. It puzzles me why this happens.
 
The bigger question is-- why is a 12 year old the best in the world at anything? It's like skating skills in figure skating. Kids who are 15 or 16 have earned the same scores as say, Jason Brown. It puzzles me why this happens.
Did you watch the competition? If you had, you would know why she won. She was that much better than the other entrants.
 
I interpret this as a face-saving move from RUSADA vis-a-vis international sports bodies, for purposes of future viability? They’re trying to maintain some shred of credibility internationally, while allowing the Russian anti-drug disciplinary committee to shoulder the blame for not sanctioning Valieva. That’s a possible theory, anyway.

So it took them a threat of a possible 4 year ban to have this epiphany? It just looks like an absolute mess.
 
The bigger question is-- why is a 12 year old the best in the world at anything? It's like skating skills in figure skating. Kids who are 15 or 16 have earned the same scores as say, Jason Brown. It puzzles me why this happens.
So when Michelle Kwan had her breakthrough at 15, you don’t think she should’ve scored as she did or won Worlds (including her 6.0s as a comparison to this system)? See below, I expand more on it.
What does it say about the sport if a twelve-year-old can be the best in the world?
It means that there’s a very talented person, probably once in a generation, at that set of skills. It’s not a sport being dominated by pre-teens otherwise.

There are always going to be overachievers at every aspect of life (teenagers graduating college or inventing things, for example). I’m not arguing that minimum age limits shouldn’t increase, but I don’t think her winning is saying anything particular about that sport.
 
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What does it say about the sport if a twelve-year-old can be the best in the world?
IIRC it was in Skateboarding and a sport new to the Olympics. I expect the average age to increase as people start seeing it as a sport where it becomes part of the normal competition track. I think the older ones were already in the current path and may not have seen it as worth the effort.

I don't follow the sport but would be willing to bet the 12 year old wouldn't have won if the best in the world had attended the Olympics.
 
It means that there’s a very talented person, probably once in a generation, at that set of skills. It’s not a sport being dominated by pre-teens otherwise.
IIRC, half of the Women's medalists in skateboarding in Tokyo were fourteen or younger, so your wording is artful, to say the least.
 
IIRC, half of the Women's medalists in skateboarding in Tokyo were fourteen or younger, so your wording is artful, to say the least.
Pre-teens would be 12 or younger...

I really wonder if people sat on the internet in the Kwan/Lipinski/Hughes/Cohen era in particular questioning why they got the results they did or why they were up at the top (well.. maybe not Hughes). I mean I was around for it and I don't remember such. I don't think I've ever seen a peep about Kwan and all the gold medals she won starting at 15, and people were even arguing she should've won in 1995 pre-transformation.
 
To be fair, I think people are generally more sensitized now to the possible issues around very young athletes competing at the highest levels. A lot has changed societally since the mid-1990s, when Kwan first emerged. Also, the emergence of Kwan and Cohen did not coincide with a noticeable and sudden increase in technical content, as happened with the Russian skaters in more recent years. Lipinski did introduce the 3Lp/3Lp combo, which was new at that point.
 
To be fair, I think people are generally more sensitized now to the possible issues around very young athletes competing at the highest levels. A lot has changed societally since the mid-1990s, when Kwan first emerged. Also, the emergence of Kwan and Cohen did not coincide with a noticeable and sudden increase in technical content, as happened with the Russian skaters in more recent years. Lipinski did introduce the 3Lp/3Lp combo, which was new at that point.
I'm not arguing that the age limits shouldn't be raised, at all. But every sports governing body is going to have different approaches and set different limits. I'm no expert on skateboarding and will definitely only watch it during the Olympics, so I don't know what the discussions are in that world.

I'm just trying to point out that being among the best in the world from a young age doesn't say anything about the sport as was questioned, IMO. American fans went through nearly a decade of 14, 15, and 16 year old US women filling out most of the international podiums followed by a few years where almost all of the top US women were too young to even be sent to senior internationals (2008, three of the four medalists were too young). And I would wager the response at that time was much more 'wow, we have so much talent coming up post-Kwan and Cohen!' as opposed to 'what does this say about our sport?'
 
Lipinski got a lot of flack when she was twelve for being a prepubescent jumping bean without any artistry. It was suggested at the time that she should have stayed in Juniors.

Kwan avoided this by (1) having better presentation and (2) testing up from Novice to Seniors behind Frank Carroll's back.
 
The lab was in Sweden (Stockholm), but yes to everything else.
:duh:

I forgot to say that out-of-competition testing is interesting because these athletes are supposed to tell WADA/RUSADA/USADA/etc their whereabouts at all times. Athletes have gotten in trouble for not being where they said they would be when the tester shows up. If it happens regularly, the athlete can be punished just for that. It's a world where you are considered guilty until proven innocent. Not showing up is treated the same as taking a masking agent.

It's a bit crazy to me and shows how complicated this issue is.
- Rusada lost its right to use its own labs to test its athletes only recently? If the first bullet is somewhat legit, then this second level of protection would only have been lost recently and moot since they are not sending athletes out since the war broke out.
WADA declared Russian labs to be non-compliant as early as 2015. The Moscow lab was reinstated in 2018 but WADA appealed that decision and I believe they won.

So it's been quite a while and not all of their problems with their labs is a result of the state-sponsored doping that was discovered after Sochi.

What does it say about the sport if a twelve-year-old can be the best in the world?
That older people aren't crazy enough to do that stuff??? I'm kidding mostly but Tony Hawk entered the sport pretty young and hung in way longer than most. It's definitely a young person's sport.

IIRC it was in Skateboarding and a sport new to the Olympics. I expect the average age to increase as people start seeing it as a sport where it becomes part of the normal competition track. I think the older ones were already in the current path and may not have seen it as worth the effort.

I don't follow the sport but would be willing to bet the 12 year old wouldn't have won if the best in the world had attended the Olympics.
I don't follow the sport either but at the time I was intrigued by all these pre-teens at the Olympics so I looked some of it up.

And, yeah, the people at the 2020 Olympics in the top 5 were also in the top 4 or 5 at the prior year's World Championships. This is just in Park Skateboarding. That discipline seems to be a very young one. There are people in their 20s but there are a lot of teens and pre-teens too.

I have no idea what that says about the sport though. I do suspect that if it becomes more prestigious, the average age of people at the top will rise. But how much is not clear to me.

I'm just trying to point out that being among the best in the world from a young age doesn't say anything about the sport as was questioned, IMO. American fans went through nearly a decade of 14, 15, and 16 year old US women filling out most of the international podiums followed by a few years where almost all of the top US women were too young to even be sent to senior internationals (2008, three of the four medalists were too young). And I would wager the response at that time was much more 'wow, we have so much talent coming up post-Kwan and Cohen!' as opposed to 'what does this say about our sport?'
I don't remember all the arguments at the time but there were definitely discussions about this and what it meant for the sport. I'm sure you remember some of these as well assuming you were on FSU at the time. I mean it's FSU after all. :D
 
Lipinski got a lot of flack when she was twelve for being a prepubescent jumping bean without any artistry. It was suggested at the time that she should have stayed in Juniors.

Kwan avoided this by (1) having better presentation and (2) testing up from Novice to Seniors behind Frank Carroll's back.
Kwan competed in Junior in 1992. And according to what Frank later said, judges suggested she stay Junior for another year. Which is why she tested up to Senior while he was out of town.
 
So it took them a threat of a possible 4 year ban to have this epiphany? It just looks like an absolute mess.
I think what happened is that they (stupidly) thought the international community would accept the underage excuse since they accepted it (or at least were forced to accept it) at the Olympics.

Then, they release their report and are (stupidly) shocked that their excuse wasn't accepted this time. Given the appeals they could be facing very real consequences including extending the period of high scrutiny WADA has placed on them. Now they're trying to backtrack to save face and consequences.
 
Another reason Kwan didn't catch as much flack was because she was 6th in her first senior year and therefore didn't pose an immediate threat to anyone's favorite. Lipinski was 3rd in her first year and went to worlds.
 
Another reason Kwan didn't catch as much flack was because she was 6th in her first senior year and therefore didn't pose an immediate threat to anyone's favorite didn't win with only jumps. She had to go through one of the most extreme transformations I've seen in figure skating and it wasn't just a new hair style and makeup. It is unusual to see. Lipinski was 3rd in her first year and went to worlds as a jumping bean and lacked mature presentation.
Sort of the same statement with some revisions ;)
 
I don't remember all the arguments at the time but there were definitely discussions about this and what it meant for the sport. I'm sure you remember some of these as well assuming you were on FSU at the time. I mean it's FSU after all. :D
I do remember an overwhelming response to Asada not being able to compete at the 2006 Olympics, which the ISU set itself up for when they allowed skaters 14+ to skate in internationals all year but keep the 15+ for ISU Championships. Many (I'm sure not all) people thought she should be able to compete.

Also RE: Lipinski. This was 1995 we are talking about. RSSIF years. The only people who saw her skating at that point either attended Nationals or smaller competitions, or Junior Worlds that season (which I'm not sure if it aired in the US- elsewhere, yes). It wasn't like there was an entire YouTube database for everyone to argue over whether she should move up or not. But I do remember the opinion being that she had made tremendous progress between 1995 and 1996 and had much stronger figure skating basics rather than looking like a roller skater. Whatever the opinion may be, she got sent to Worlds by one vote over Bobek and could've been marked even higher in the LP, probably had she skated later. It wasn't like she was out of place, and it wasn't like she was Ludmila Nelidina presentation-wise when she showed up in 1997.

And really- 'mature presentation'? There are skaters in their 20's, having competed senior for 10+ years, that still have no idea what they are doing with the music nor do they attempt to hide it. It's often the case more than not. Age doesn't always bring this stuff. ;)
 
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