ISU Transgender Policy

[barbk]

Exactly. Everyone's talking about bathrooms/locker rooms but it's not what we should be discussing. Because there's a wide variety (ie binary, trans, transitioning, etc), it's much harder to set the standards. How can we judge by their hormones? By their bodies? I believe we should let them decide which class to compete in and let their skating speaks for itself. There really aren't enough to create a third catch-all class, and at the same time, excluding them from skating just because of how they appear is just ???

Well, we do that all the time in wrestling. We don't allow a 140 lb person who identifies as a 120 lb person to compete in the 120 lb. class. In international figure skating, we don't allow a 22-year-old who is small for her age to compete in junior competitions. We also set drug standards so that someone using PEDs (like anabolic steroids) gets excluded from competition for a long time, partly because those drugs can yield long-term benefits even after they are stopped.

I agree with you on the locker room issue. I grew up in an era where you had to use group changing rooms and shower rooms after PE classes. I find it just a little funny that when I go to a pool today, it is mostly the old ladies and little children getting dressed/undressed in the open locker room and many/most of the younger women decamp to the cubicles for dressing/undressing.

 

[Trillian]

I think it's dishonest to use such a broad brush to attack people posting in good faith who are trans-inclusive and trans-positive.

I think it’s dishonest for anyone to claim they’re “trans-inclusive” when the entire premise of their argument is that trans women should be excluded because they’re somehow a threat to cis women. We haven’t seen a lot blatant transphobia in this thread, but an argument that’s not outright transphobic is not automatically trans-inclusive, either.

Comments about locker rooms have been limited to etiquette -- being explicit, whether it's appropriate for trans women to walk around locker rooms naked, with their penises exposed.

That’s not true. Multiple people a few pages back argued that cis women shouldn’t have to share locker rooms with trans women who have penises, period. I’m not going to quote them, but the posts are still there. Locker room etiquette is fine as long as it applies to everyone in the locker room, but that’s not where the conversation started.

Can we please stick to this issue, or at least not put words in people's mouths or paint them with broad brushes? This isn't transphobia. It's political correctness gone mad.

I agree that this conversation went way off the rails and we’d be better off discussing trans athletes in figure skating in particular. But people who are excluded by the current policies aren’t asking for inclusion in the name of “political correctness,” they just want to play sports. There are actual people being impacted by these conversations.

 

[caseyedwards]

I think it’s dishonest for anyone to claim they’re “trans-inclusive” when the entire premise of their argument is that trans women should be excluded because they’re somehow a threat to cis women. We haven’t seen a lot blatant transphobia in this thread, but an argument that’s not outright transphobic is not automatically trans-inclusive, either.



That’s not true. Multiple people a few pages back argued that cis women shouldn’t have to share locker rooms with trans women who have penises, period. I’m not going to quote them, but the posts are still there. Locker room etiquette is fine as long as it applies to everyone in the locker room, but that’s not where the conversation started.



I agree that this conversation went way off the rails and we’d be better off discussing trans athletes in figure skating in particular. But people who are excluded by the current policies aren’t asking for inclusion in the name of “political correctness,” they just want to play sports. There are actual people being impacted by these conversations.

They can play in their birth sex division! They must not be allowed to switch divisions. These were extraordinarily talented and successful athletes- they just weren’t winners. Now they are becoming winners and it’s totally unfair

 

[just tuned in]

It reminds me of the movie The Incredibles, when Dash wants to do track and his parents have an argument as to whether it would be fair to his classmates. At the end of the movie, Dash is in a race and his parents tell him that he should slow down so that he comes in second place.

The question is not whether Castor is allowed to run, or whether Lia is allowed to swim — just whether it is fair for them to compete in sanctioned races.

 

[Trillian]

The question is not whether Castor is allowed to run, or whether Lia is allowed to swim — just whether it is fair for them to compete in sanctioned races.

Caster Semenya isn’t transgender, but that’s another good example of how people who are not trans are also impacted by these conversations. (More so, honestly, since there are more cis and intersex people than out trans people.) She’s also a really good example of why it’s silly to keep insisting that we need to impose a biological sex “binary” that doesn’t exist on a sociocultural event, instead of using existing sociocultural categories that would separate the vast majority of people into the exact same competitive divisions anyway.

 

[Pink Cats]

I think it’s dishonest for anyone to claim they’re “trans-inclusive” when the entire premise of their argument is that trans women should be excluded because they’re somehow a threat to cis women. We haven’t seen a lot blatant transphobia in this thread, but an argument that’s not outright transphobic is not automatically trans-inclusive, either.



That’s not true. Multiple people a few pages back argued that cis women shouldn’t have to share locker rooms with trans women who have penises, period. I’m not going to quote them, but the posts are still there. Locker room etiquette is fine as long as it applies to everyone in the locker room, but that’s not where the conversation started.



I agree that this conversation went way off the rails and we’d be better off discussing trans athletes in figure skating in particular. But people who are excluded by the current policies aren’t asking for inclusion in the name of “political correctness,” they just want to play sports. There are actual people being impacted by these conversations.

Caster Semenya isn’t transgender, but that’s another good example of how people who are not trans are also impacted by these conversations. (More so, honestly, since there are more cis and intersex people than out trans people.) She’s also a really good example of why it’s silly to keep insisting that we need to impose a biological sex “binary” that doesn’t exist on a sociocultural event, instead of using existing sociocultural categories that would separate the vast majority of people into the exact same competitive divisions anyway.

The reason people keep insisting that we need to impose a biological sex “binary” is because when males and females physically compete against each other invariable the males will win. The reason for the split is for biological reasons not sociocultural ones. Only as long as you are okay with females always loosing should males & females compete against each other. It's fairly obvious that you only care about the rights of Trans Women. It doesn't really matter to you if a Cis woman or some Cis Women or indeed all Cis Women are harmed by a policy as long as it is trans-inclusive. Well sorry to offend you but most people want what is fair to both groups.

 

[VGThuy]

The reason people keep insisting that we need to impose a biological sex “binary” is because when males and females physically compete against each other invariable the males will win. The reason for the split is for biological reasons not sociocultural ones. Only as long as you are okay with females always loosing should males & females compete against each other. It's fairly obvious that you only care about the rights of Trans Women. It doesn't really matter to you if a Cis woman or some Cis Women or indeed all Cis Women are harmed by a policy as long as it is trans-inclusive. Well sorry to offend you but most people want what is fair to both groups.

Or maybe we come up with different categories instead of male/female. Maybe based on weight and muscle mass and other anatomical features rather than sex.

 

[Trillian]

It's fairly obvious that you only care about the rights of Trans Women. It doesn't really matter to you if a Cis woman or some Cis Women or indeed all Cis Women are harmed by a policy as long as it is trans-inclusive.

I am a cis woman and certainly do care about my own rights. I just don’t happen to think it’s a violation of my rights if I lose a game. A lot of different women could beat me at any sport for a lot of different reasons. If two women beat me in a race because they have different kinds of physical advantages over me, I’m not going to say one of them is fine because she’s cis, but the other one is a problem because she’s trans. There’s no logical basis for that argument. They’re both women and I’m not interested in attacking either one of them.

 

[overedge]

The reason people keep insisting that we need to impose a biological sex “binary” is because when males and females physically compete against each other invariable the males will win.

No. It depends on the sport and the optimal physical features for success in that sport.

 

[barbk]

No. It depends on the sport and the optimal physical features for success in that sport.

How many sports don't have single sex competition? Shooting. Curling. Sailing. Others? The only ones that don't seem to be ones where physical strength has less influence on the outcome.

 

[Trillian]

How many sports don't have single sex competition? Shooting. Curling. Sailing. Others? The only ones that don't seem to be ones where physical strength has less influence on the outcome.

I can’t tell by this thread if anyone on this message board is interested in figure skating , but that’s a pretty obvious example of a sport where pure physical strength isn’t the only factor. While there are separate disciplines for men and women, the scoring tends to reward different things and it’s not clear that trans athletes would have any kind of advantage in any discipline.

 

[MacMadame]

sweetheart... in reality, a cic gendered womans genetics, they supersede the hormone test. They have records showing their cic gender...

Um, no. They have records showing the sex they were assigned at birth. Intersexed people have those same records but that doesn't make them not intersexed.

They must not be allowed to switch divisions.

Why? Will the world end or something?

The reason people keep insisting that we need to impose a biological sex “binary” is because when males and females physically compete against each other invariable the males will win.

I guess it's just my imagination that I beat all those men when I did triathlons then. Oh and a couple of male ice dancers.

 

[Pink Cats]

Or maybe we come up with different categories instead of male/female. Maybe based on weight and muscle mass and other anatomical features rather than sex.

Except most of the difference that result in need for more than one category are the result of sexual dimorphism so why reinvent the wheel.

 

[overedge]

How many sports don't have single sex competition? Shooting. Curling. Sailing. Others? The only ones that don't seem to be ones where physical strength has less influence on the outcome.

Some parts of equestrian competition as well.

 

[Pink Cats]

I can’t tell by this thread if anyone on this message board is interested in figure skating , but that’s a pretty obvious example of a sport where pure physical strength isn’t the only factor. While there are separate disciplines for men and women, the scoring tends to reward different things and it’s not clear that trans athletes would have any kind of advantage in any discipline.

Most of the figure skating score comes from the jumps in both the disciplines , the reason that more women don't do quads or triple axels is

1. because of physical strength
2. because they have wider hips and busts which don't allow them to rotate as quickly.

As we have seen over the last 4 years the vast majority of the women who can jump do quads or triple axels resemble prepubescent girls. On the other hand men don't have these issues. Anna Shcherbakova would have placed tenth in the men's free program and Kaori Sakamoto would have placed 20th. In fact only the top 3 women's skaters would have made the long program if they where competing against the men.

 

[VGThuy]

Except most of the difference that result in need for more than one category are the result of sexual dimorphism so why reinvent the wheel.

That's debatable. People within the same sex vary quite a lot meaning that sex isn't the only factor one could or even should look at when determining category separations when it comes to "fairness" and equalizing the playing field. Splitting lines at male and female only seems to be simplistic at best for all these arguments being raised.

 

[tony]

As we have seen over the last 4 years the vast majority of the women who can jump do quads or triple axels resemble prepubescent girls. On the other hand men don't have these issues. Anna Shcherbakova would have placed tenth in the men's free program and Kaori Sakamoto would have placed 20th. In fact only the top 3 women's skaters would have made the long program if they where competing against the men.

Are you being ignorant intentionally or did you just start watching skating last month?

PCS is factored different. It's been discussed for years. Shcherbakova, with the same PCS factor as the men, finishes 3rd in the (mens) LP.

 

[allezfred]

Every 68 seconds another American is sexually assaulted, https://www.rainn.org/statistics/scope-problem, the vast majority of those American's are CIS Women. Unless you can tell us a way that a trans woman who has not undergone reconstruction surgery can be told apart from a CIS Man then you don't have a point. Because if a person with a penis is walking though a public changing room my reaction is not going to be to welcome the Tran women but to call the management. What you have done is indicate that you don't believe that CIS Women have any rights when it comes to Women spaces.

Why are you looking at other people's genitals so much?

 

[Pink Cats]

Are you being ignorant intentionally or did you just start watching skating last month?

PCS is factored different. It's been discussed for years. Shcherbakova, with the same PCS factor as the men, finishes 3rd in the (mens) LP.

No I simply for got about the factoring but if she did compete against the men there is no way in hell she would have gotton the score she did becuase here GOE would be much lower.

 

[Trillian]

Are you being ignorant intentionally or did you just start watching skating last month?

PCS is factored different. It's been discussed for years. Shcherbakova, with the same PCS factor as the men, finishes 3rd in the (mens) LP.

Yep. And that’s without even taking into account the subjectivity involved in assigning GOEs and PCS, and the fact that there are different expectations for men and women in terms of how they execute a lot of elements that would impact both of those areas.

 

[overedge]

That's debatable. People within the same sex vary quite a lot meaning that sex isn't the only factor one could or even should look at when determining category separations when it comes to "fairness" and equalizing the playing field. Splitting lines at male and female only seems to be simplistic at best for all these arguments being raised.

Plus most elite sports have minimum qualifying standards, regardless of the competitor's gender. So there are already lots of athletes being excluded from some competitions for reasons that have nothing to do with their gender identity.

 

[Pink Cats]

Yep. And that’s without even taking into account the subjectivity involved in assigning GOEs and PCS, and the fact that there are different expectations for men and women in terms of how they execute a lot of elements that would impact both of those areas.

I can BS on this, if the women competed against the men they might get more in PCS but they would get much less in GOE because again most of the technical score comes from the jumps and how well you jump heavily impacts you PCS.

 

[gkelly]

Most of the figure skating score comes from the jumps in both the disciplines

That is true at the moment, but it's not inherent in the sport as a whole as it has been practiced over the past 130 years.

It would be perfectly possible to redefine figure skating competition requirements (or the women's division only) such that jumps would contribute a significantly lower percentage to the total score.

E.g., 2010 women's short program requirements:
required solo double axel
no quads
required layback (with level 4 much easier to achieve if it includes a Biellmann position)
required leveled spiral sequence

That already would erase much of the short program advantage that "male puberty" might offer in terms of short programs.

Free skate rules could also be reconfigured either to limit total number or total difficulty of jumps or to allow other opportunities for skaters to earn points through flexibility moves or just basic blade-to-ice skills instead of jumps if that's where they excel.

Higher factors for GOEs on non-jump elements and higher factors for program components.

And of course bringing back school figures in some form would level the playing field even further.

 

[overedge]

I can BS on this, if the women competed against the men they might get more in PCS but they would get much less in GOE because again most of the technical score comes from the jumps and how well you jump heavily impacts you PCS.

That's a reflection of how the sport is scored. As @gkelly points out, the scoring system could be adjusted to make it more equitable if men and woman were to compete against each other. Differences in (potential) scores doesn't demonstrate inherent differences between men's and women's physical capabilities.

 

[aka_gerbil]

I don’t even want to try to guess what would happen with pcs and GOE if everyone competed together given the tendency to inflate GOE and PCS for performing harder elements, even if not at all warranted (especially with PCS..).

 

[Pink Cats]

That is true at the moment, but it's not inherent in the sport as a whole as it has been practiced over the past 130 years.

It would be perfectly possible to redefine figure skating competition requirements (or the women's division only) such that jumps would contribute a significantly lower percentage to the total score.

E.g., 2010 women's short program requirements:
required solo double axel
no quads
required layback (with level 4 much easier to achieve if it includes a Biellmann position)
required leveled spiral sequence

That already would erase much of the short program advantage that "male puberty" might offer in terms of short programs.

Free skate rules could also be reconfigured either to limit total number or total difficulty of jumps or to allow other opportunities for skaters to earn points through flexibility moves or just basic blade-to-ice skills instead of jumps if that's where they excel.

Higher factors for GOEs on non-jump elements and higher factors for program components.

And of course bringing back school figures in some form would level the playing field even further.

So basically fundamentally change the program requirements and scoring correct.

 

[Trillian]

I can BS on this, if the women competed against the men they might get more in PCS but they would get much less in GOE because again most of the technical score comes from the jumps and how well you jump heavily impacts you PCS.

GOE is an execution score applied to each individual element. It has nothing to do with counting jumps. Just as one example, skaters with less flexibility will probably earn lower GOEs on spins in the women’s event than the men’s event because women are generally expected to display more extreme flexibility in their spins.

As far as PCS goes, they’re not tied to jumps and judges who are giving skaters higher or lower PCS based on jump content alone are scoring incorrectly. That doesn’t require a rule change, those are actually the rules that exist now.

And considering that cis women often get lowballed on PCS if they’re not princessy enough, I’m not sure why you think the judges will magically decide to give trans women higher scores for things like performance and interpretation.

 

[overedge]

So basically fundamentally change the program requirements and scoring correct.

Why not? That's essentially what the ISU did after the Salt Lake City Olympics. The program requirements and scoring systems aren't etched in stone and untouchable.

 

[Trillian]

Why not? That's essentially what the ISU did after the Salt Lake City Olympics. The program requirements and scoring systems aren't etched in stone and untouchable.

Not to mention that a lot of the changes being discussed might also help disincentivize drugging children, which is a real problem instead of a pretend one.

 

[Pink Cats]

GOE is an execution score applied to each individual element. It has nothing to do with counting jumps. Just as one example, skaters with less flexibility will probably earn lower GOEs on spins in the women’s event than the men’s event because women are generally expected to display more extreme flexibility in their spins.

As far as PCS goes, they’re not tied to jumps and judges who are giving skaters higher or lower PCS based on jump content alone are scoring incorrectly. That doesn’t require a rule change, those are actually the rules that exist now.

And considering that cis women often get lowballed on PCS if they’re not princessy enough, I’m not sure why you think the judges will magically decide to give trans women higher scores for things like performance and interpretation.

Why not? That's essentially what the ISU did after the Salt Lake City Olympics. The program requirements and scoring systems aren't etched in stone and untouchable.

Not to mention that a lot of the changes being discussed might also help disincentivize drugging children, which is a real problem instead of a pretend one.

I am looking at how the sport is currently scored and what is the judges current biases are not what or how I would like them to be. Under the current system everything I have said is correct. Let's remember that the reason that there is an over emphasis on jumping triple axels and quads is because fan could not understand why a clean program with by a skater with soso skating skills could be beaten by someone with out of this world skating skills who had a fall. Let's say they did change the system how long before there would be complaints about not rewarding the harder elements enough.