Russian Figure Skater tests positive for drugs - delays ceremony for team medals

[Former Lurve Goddess]

Define “observant Muslim”.

Oh FFS - I know polyamorous LGBTQ Muslims who fast during Ramadan and dress modestly when they go to the mosque (but not the rest of the time!). Just because you have a limited view of the world doesn't mean the rest of us do. And it's not up for me as an atheist (or you whatever you are) to pass judgement on people's faiths and values. I have modern Orthodox friends who wear provocative outfits during the week but still keep Kosher and don't use technology during Shabbat. It's a big world out there with 8 billion different people with different stories and outlooks. But I suspect you're not interesting in learning about any of them?

 

[Allskate]

Perhaps IOC/ISU would prefer not to give ROC the photo opportunity of Russian athletes atop the podium?

I do understand that, especially given how much the Russians want that. The IOC essentially is saying that it doesn't want to reward dopers. But the clean athletes pay a price when they've done it right. I think this dilemma is partly the IOC's own fault for going to easy on Russian doping and also the fault of the CAS for their decision.

 

[Karen-W]

Oh FFS - I know polyamorous LGBTQ Muslims who fast during Ramadan and dress modestly when they go to the mosque (but not the rest of the time!). Just because you have a limited view of the world doesn't mean the rest of us do. And it's not up for me as an atheist (or you whatever you are) to pass judgement on people's faiths and values. I have modern Orthodox friends who wear provocative outfits during the week but still keep Kosher and don't use technology during Shabbat. It's a big world out there with 8 billion different people with different stories and outlooks. But I suspect you're not interesting in learning about any of them?

THIS! Goodness gracious, look at how wide and diverse practicing Christians are when it comes to this topic - modesty or avoidance of modern technology does not equal faith, no matter what some oppressive cleric tells you.

 

[Nadya]

Oh FFS - I know polyamorous LGBTQ Muslims who fast during Ramadan and dress modestly when they go to the mosque (but not the rest of the time!). Just because you have a limited view of the world doesn't mean the rest of us do. And it's not up for me as an atheist (or you whatever you are) to pass judgement on people's faiths and values. I have modern Orthodox friends who wear provocative outfits during the week but still keep Kosher and don't use technology during Shabbat. It's a big world out there with 8 billion different people with different stories and outlooks. But I suspect you're not interesting in learning about any of them?

It doesn’t really matter what your outlook means. For the purposes of defining religious observance, the only thing that matters is what Islam’s outlook is. Islam has one set of rules, not eight billion of them, and one either follows them or not. I am not certain why you resist the notion that Islam is a prescriptive religion. It is. It doesn’t matter what the people you know do. It doesn’t change the rules. It’s ok not to be observant but it’s not ok to pretend that the rules of the religion are whatever you say they are. It’s not about your feelz. I mean belief is about feelz but observance isn't.

 

[Nadya]

THIS! Goodness gracious, look at how wide and diverse practicing Christians are when it comes to this topic - modesty or avoidance of modern technology does not equal faith, no matter what some oppressive cleric tells you.

No one talked about faith. Your faith is in your heart. Observance is different. You can be a believer but not an observant one. This doesn't change the fact that rules exist. Whether one is an observant Muslim or not is really not a matter of opinion.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Different Islamic sects plus a very large number of Imams and religious scholars and authorities would beg to differ.

 

[Seerek]

I think this dilemma is partly the IOC's own fault for going to easy on Russian doping and also the fault of the CAS for their decision.

When the IOC left it to the International Sports federations to determine Russian participation in future major events, only the IAAF for Athletics and IWF for Weightlifting in Rio 2016 stepped up - no one else.

It surprises me why so few of the International Federations have opted not apply their own bans (where it is applicable).

 

[skatfan]

Oh FFS - I know polyamorous LGBTQ Muslims who fast during Ramadan and dress modestly when they go to the mosque (but not the rest of the time!). Just because you have a limited view of the world doesn't mean the rest of us do. And it's not up for me as an atheist (or you whatever you are) to pass judgement on people's faiths and values. I have modern Orthodox friends who wear provocative outfits during the week but still keep Kosher and don't use technology during Shabbat. It's a big world out there with 8 billion different people with different stories and outlooks. But I suspect you're not interesting in learning about any of them?

Hard agree! The variety is wide with as large as a religion as Islam. Practices are quite localized according to Muslims that I know. It’s as useful to talk about an observant Christian - do you mean Catholic, Protestant, or Orthodox or one of the many other traditions new and old!

 

[Karen-W]

No one talked about faith. Your faith is in your heart. Observance is different. You can be a believer but not an observant one. This doesn't change the fact that rules exist. Whether one is an observant Muslim or not is really not a matter of opinion.

You are, quite candidly, an idiot. The rules are not hard and finite, as demonstrated by the many different sects of Islam, Judaism and Christianity that demand different behaviors to be considered "pure of faith" which is what you are trying to equate with being "observant". One can, indeed, be "observant" and dress immodestly or use technology instead of adhering to a very rigid set of rules about attire or use of electricity or the number of wives one has.

 

[Allskate]

I just heard Johnny and Tara on NBC with Mike Tirico and the discussion really troubled me. They were discussing how terrible it was what Valieva experienced. (They didn't have much discussion about what others experienced as a result of her doping.) When Mike brought up the issue of raising the age limit, Tara and Johnny said that they didn't see a good solution with that because so many female skaters peak at 15 or 16. IMO, that in itself should raise a red flag. If there are a lot of skaters peaking before they have gone through puberty, either because of their size or because their bodies or their mental health have taken such a beating by the time they graduate from high school, that is a significant issue. That problem affects even those who stay in the sport because it leads to eating disorders for some skaters.

I just read this interesting article interviewing some of the female skaters about how unhealthy the focus is on the size and shape of the bodies of female skaters:

Figure Skating's Eating-Disorder Problem Is Bigger Than Doping, Skaters Say

The Beijing Winter Olympics put the sport's body-image woes back in the spotlight.

www.yahoo.com

"U.S. pairs skater Ashley Cain-Gribble believes a higher age limit would be helpful for the sport she nearly left due to body shaming over her strength and height."

“I dealt with a lot of negativity, like two years ago,” Liu said of the many critics who have commented on her very public growth spurt. “At one point, I was like, why are they literally coming for a 14 year old? That’s so weird. They’re just kind of creepy for that. Why are they looking at a minor’s body that way? It’s just a little weird and kind of wrong, obviously.”

 

[Nadya]

You are, quite candidly, an idiot. The rules are not hard and finite, as demonstrated by the many different sects of Islam, Judaism and Christianity that demand different behaviors to be considered "pure of faith" which is what you are trying to equate with being "observant". One can, indeed, be "observant" and dress immodestly or use technology instead of adhering to a very rigid set of rules about attire or use of electricity or the number of wives one has.

Why do you fight the fact that Islam has rules?

 

[Nadya]

Hard agree! The variety is wide with as large as a religion as Islam. Practices are quite localized according to Muslims that I know. It’s as useful to talk about an observant Christian - do you mean Catholic, Protestant, or Orthodox or one of the many other traditions new and old!

I don't know anything about observant Christians and wasn't opining on that.

Islam may have local practices but it doesn't have local rules. It is a prescriptive religion.

 

[Karen-W]

Why do you fight the fact that Islam has rules?

Why are you insisting that Islam doesn't have different sects, just like Christianity and Judaism, and that they have different interpretations of "the rules"? What is so hard to understand about this concept?

 

[skatfan]

I just heard Johnny and Tara on NBC with Mike Tirico and the discussion really troubled me. They were discussing how terrible it was what Valieva experienced. (They didn't have much discussion about what others experienced as a result of her doping.) When Mike brought up the issue of raising the age limit, Tara and Johnny said that they didn't see a good solution with that because so many female skaters peak at 15 or 16.

I really took issue with Tara talking about her safe environment which included sexual abuser Richard Callahan - he just happened to like boys.

 

[Sylvia]

Maybe the Islam discussion can continue in the PI forum?!?!

 

[skatfan]

I don't know anything about observant Christians and wasn't opining on that.

The diversity is as large. That’s my point.

Islam may have local practices but it doesn't have local rules. It is a prescriptive religion.

Yes it does have local rules on things like dress because climate varies so much that what works in Saudi Arabia will not work in Indonesia. All “rules” are interpreted by local Imans, there is far less that is prescripted than in Roman Catholicism which has a centralized structure.

Sorry @Sylvia this is my last post on this here.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Maybe the Islam discussion can continue in the PI forum?!?!

Why? The discussion is about whether figure skating and Islam are compatible, and, if so, under what circumstances.

 

[overedge]

This "skaters peak at 15 or 16" argument is BS. They "peak" at that age because that's the age at which they can probably do the elements that gain the most points. That's a problem with the way the sport is structured and what it rewards, not with the age limit.

And given how long Tara trained with Callaghan and the behavior that was described in the SafeSport decision on his case - there is no way she couldn't have seen at least some of that. Maybe she was "safe" because her mom was around and was part of her career, and/or because Callaghan was smart enough not to mess with one of his stars. But how dare she trivialize what he did to others by describing that environment as "safe"

 

[Dobre]

This is Evan Bates' fourth Olympics. If he is POed enough to speak out like this, things are very bad.

Evan spoke out about the whole event being held in China, prior to the Olympics.

I think, at this point, he's an adult. He's an established competitor that has been around the block and has been raised in PR speak. Plus he doesn't have family connections in China, therefore, wasn't facing the personal risk that the athletes with family in China would have faced speaking out on that particular topic. Anyway, if someone was going to speak up on behalf of the team regarding their position--which I would think did need to happen--he would be an obvious choice as a representative or spokesperson.

 

[Karen-W]

Evan spoke out about the whole event being held in China, prior to the Olympics.

I think, at this point, he's an adult. He's an established competitor that has been around the block and has been raised in PR speak. Plus he doesn't have family connections in China, therefore, wasn't facing the personal risk that the athletes with family in China would have faced speaking out on that particular topic. Anyway, if someone was going to speak up on behalf of the team regarding their position--which I would think did need to happen--he would be an obvious choice as a representative or spokesperson.

Additionally, he and Chock were the Team Event Co-Captains for Team USA. He is, very much, an obvious choice.

 

[overedge]

Evan strikes me as kind of a quiet guy who just goes about getting his work done. I don't recall him being this public before, especially on politically sensitive issues within skating. But I'm very glad he's speaking out.

 

[Debbie S]

Why? The discussion is about whether figure skating and Islam are compatible, and, if so, under what circumstances.

Then maybe start another thread in GSD. Since this thread is about Valieva's positive test/TE medal ceremony delay, Islam seems a bit off-topic.

 

[Allskate]

This "skaters peak at 15 or 16" argument is BS. They "peak" at that age because that's the age at which they can probably do the elements that gain the most points. That's a problem with the way the sport is structured and what it rewards, not with the age limit.

Yep. The most difficult jumps count for a lot in the jump scores and the jumps count for a huge amount in the technical score. Then, the most difficult jumps tend to artificially inflate PCS scores. And age plays into this.

But, it's beyond that. Focusing on these jumps takes a toll. Tara herself, who did so many 3/3 combinations, had serious hip problems at a very young age. The amount of time spent training takes a physical and mental toll. The amount of time that the Russian girls reportedly spend training per day cannot be good for them physically or psychologically. And it's almost certainly a key reason why they peak young and then disappear. And then there are the health concerns that may result if a skater is doped to further increase their chances of performing at an age where they may be less able to advocate for themselves in such a situation.

There was a discussion on tv the other day about why Norway is so successful in the winter Olympics, and one of the reasons they gave was that they don't have athletes specialize in a sport at a young age so they don't burn out.

 

[Nadya]

That, and their love of asthma medication.

 

[pinky166]

According to the CAS decision, a prescription is needed for TMZ. I'm not sure if it was in the panel's actual ruling or one of the cases stated by the appellants. I didn't see anyone contradicting it.

I thought I heard her grandfather didn’t have a prescription for TMZ, which, if true, makes the excuse even more ridiculous than it already was

 

[overedge]

That, and their love of asthma medication.

There are lots of things that Norway does a lot better than other countries in developing athletes, by making sports as accessible as possible to all, and encouraging active participation at every age. None of that has anything to do with alleged asthma medication abuse.

 

[manhn]

It helps Norway does well in sports that can garner a lot of medals. A sport like hockey, a lot of Canadian play hockey, but it is only reflected in two medals. Maybe there will be a mixed hockey at one point at the Winter Olympics….

 

[MacMadame]

“I dealt with a lot of negativity, like two years ago,” Liu said of the many critics who have commented on her very public growth spurt. “At one point, I was like, why are they literally coming for a 14 year old? That’s so weird. They’re just kind of creepy for that. Why are they looking at a minor’s body that way? It’s just a little weird and kind of wrong, obviously.”

She has such a great attitude. It gives me a bit of hope that maybe this next generation coming up will stick up for themselves. If so, I see (welcome) changes coming to our sport.

 

[Aussie Willy]

This "skaters peak at 15 or 16" argument is BS. They "peak" at that age because that's the age at which they can probably do the elements that gain the most points. That's a problem with the way the sport is structured and what it rewards, not with the age limit.

And given how long Tara trained with Callaghan and the behavior that was described in the SafeSport decision on his case - there is no way she couldn't have seen at least some of that. Maybe she was "safe" because her mom was around and was part of her career, and/or because Callaghan was smart enough not to mess with one of his stars. But how dare she trivialize what he did to others by describing that environment as "safe"

The whole age thing needs to be done with health and safety foremost, whether that be physical, or as recent events have brought to light, emotional. So far the discussions have appeared to centre around the younger skaters have an unfair competitive advantage against older competitors. But after this event, I would not care to see quads in ladies skating again if it means we have skaters who are having difficulty coping with event outcomes or it leads to doping.

I have seen various comments about Trusova's meltdown. I am sure she is very competitive and hungry for wins. But I do think the environment she trains in has a win at all costs culture first and foremost. And it is created by those who manage the space. At her age she is influenced by those around her. And I wouldn't mind betting the internal competition at the rink is part of that environment.

 

[muffinplus]

I have seen various comments about Trusova's meltdown. I am sure she is very competitive and hungry for wins. But I do think the environment she trains in has a win at all costs culture first and foremost. And it is created by those who manage the space. At her age she is influenced by those around her. And I wouldn't mind betting the internal competition at the rink is part of that environment.

Anna is in the very same environment, and she doesn't act that way. In fact she said she is not motivated by wins, but rather by setting goals in her skating and being able to show them in front of an audience. Now I don't know if she is being coy saying "Results don't matter" (I'm not sure that's 100 percent true) but she is not as focused on that...