CAS rules Valieva can compete - reactions/fallout, plus some details from the hearing

[thvu]

But don't you think they'd make the same mistake for all the ones on the cocktail?

Mr. thvu (PharmD) told me that if a medication isn't compounded correctly (or well), different doses from the same batch can have different concentrations of the different medications in the compound.

So, there can be varying reasons that Valieva tested positive while other skaters in the same camp didn't. It could have been different metabolisms like you mentioned, or it just could have been just a poorly compounded drug cocktail that gave different concentrations of TMZ to each skater.

 

[Mugs]

Thank you. when I googled it all I got was Kamilla's story. Not a picture. So a pill. There should be nothing of it in the glass or in the water or in the grandfather's mouth.

It's a tablet in the push-through type packaging. Since it's not FDA approved in the US, I could only find images of it from foreign countries. I googled the full name of the drug and then click on images. Shown below is a link...hopefully it works.

https://tajgenerics.com/portfolio-i...es-modified-release-tablets-35-mg-taj-pharma/

 

[Frau Muller]

what's odd is that Scherbakova and Trusova also haven't tested positive. Why would they not get what Valieva's getting, and if they did get it, why would it be out of their systems quicker? Eteri's whole group is now suspect IMO.

Because Trusova & Scherbakova may not have needed, wanted or even known about it? To suspect everyone in a coach’s group because of one (1) underaged skater’s single test is despicable. Valieva isn’t even my fave but I’ll support CAS’ decision to allow her to compete. “The court” - as Alysa Liu terms it - has spoken.

Also, you ask-
“Why would they not get what Valieva’s getting…” This is not a virus, caught by not practicing social distancing.

As I asked on another thread, about Pairs: Should we also suspect Tarasova/ Morozov? Of course not.

 

[MacMadame]

It's a tablet in the push-through type packaging. Since it's not FDA approved in the US, I could only find images of it from foreign countries. I googled the full name of the drug and then click on images. Shown below is a link...hopefully it works.

https://tajgenerics.com/portfolio-i...es-modified-release-tablets-35-mg-taj-pharma/

Those are modified release tablets so they don't break down until they are in the stomach and/or intestines. (This has come up before.)

 

[overedge]

what's odd is that Scherbakova and Trusova also haven't tested positive. Why would they not get what Valieva's getting, and if they did get it, why would it be out of their systems quicker? Eteri's whole group is now suspect IMO.

Mr. thvu (PharmD) told me that if a medication isn't compounded correctly (or well), different doses from the same batch can have different concentrations of the different medications in the compound.

So, there can be varying reasons that Valieva tested positive while other skaters in the same camp didn't. It could have been different metabolisms like you mentioned, or it just could have been just a poorly compounded drug cocktail that gave different concentrations of TMZ to each skater.

Or it could have been better timing on when it was administered to the others.

 

[Bigbird]

what's odd is that Scherbakova and Trusova also haven't tested positive. Why would they not get what Valieva's getting, and if they did get it, why would it be out of their systems quicker? Eteri's whole group is now suspect IMO.

Valieva is not as naturally thin as Anna and Sasha so they need to push her harder. Hence the dose given to her may have been higher. Being Navka or Sinitsina thin in Russian figure skating circles for ladies is considered the gold standard.

 

[altai_rose]

Those are modified release tablets so they don't break down until they are in the stomach and/or intestines. (This has come up before.)

To clarify, I said there are both immediate release and modified release forms. Immediate release forms can be taken whole or crushed and taken in apple sauce or yogurt or water. Modified release forms should not be crushed.

 

[bladesofgorey]

To clarify, I said there are both immediate release and modified release forms. Immediate release forms can be taken whole or crushed and taken in apple sauce or yogurt or water. Modified release forms should not be crushed.

I'm curious what form the package her grandpa held up in the car was.

 

[Bigbird]

I'm curious what form the package her grandpa held up in the car was.

ROTFL.

 

[Rukia]

It's completely possible that while they are all getting some kind of cocktail, they are not getting the same thing (and it's certainly possible they're not all getting banned substances). Kamila may have been the chosen one thus getting special stuff or they felt she needed something extra. The problem is unless someone actually spills all the secrets as to what everyone was taking, we will never know, which means we will always wonder.

Or they just got Kamila's dosage wrong that time for whatever reason.

 

[Tavi]

So there goes the "minuscule amount" defense.

Yes. In view of the fact that so many people have been arguing about whether the use of l-carnitine and hypoxen is relevant, I also thought this comment was interesting:

“The initial excuse,” Tygart said, “seems to be seriously undermined” by her use of the two legal substances — because it’s unlikely that the use of a third substance that serves a similar purpose would be accidental and coincidental.”

I also thought it was interesting that USADA had previously tried to get hypoxen banned.

 

[barbarafan]

It's a tablet in the push-through type packaging. Since it's not FDA approved in the US, I could only find images of it from foreign countries. I googled the full name of the drug and then click on images. Shown below is a link...hopefully it works.

https://tajgenerics.com/portfolio-i...es-modified-release-tablets-35-mg-taj-pharma/

so.....great info. pill is really coated and it is also time released so really no traces would be in the glass or anyone's mouth. Very concerned about possible side effects...That is quite a list. Thank-you for finding this.

 

[Allskate]

Because Trusova & Scherbakova may not have needed, wanted or even known about it? To suspect everyone in a coach’s group because of one (1) underaged skater’s single test is despicable.

Oh, please. It's not just because they skate for the same coach. That coach has publicly said that she was looking for a drug to replace a banned substance. And the reason they are skating as ROC is because of systemic doping by the Russians. What is "despicable" is the doping.

 

[once_upon]

Kamila is skating in the Olympics, regardless of age she has been on the international stage for at least a year or more right?

She wants to play with the big girls on the biggest stage, then the big girl rules should apply. The nonsense about destroying one's life - if it is so traumatic that she needs to be protected, what about the trauma life long consequences of all the women skating?

Rules are put in place to make competition as fair as possible. No exceptions.

 

[Lara111]

Twitter thread by journalist Kalyn Kahler (who wrote the Defector.com article that has its own thread in GSD) - copied out below: https://twitter.com/kalynkahler/status/1493328419114962947

Just talked to Arthur Liu, dad of Team USA skater Alysa Liu. He is big mad about the CAS' decision to let Valieva compete. "I just simply can't believe the 'irreparable harm' to her. How about the irreparable harm to other clean athletes? You are depriving them."

Arthur Liu says Alysa is trying to focus now, but, "It is going to be very hard for all the clean athletes to see that the Russians are doping and they are going to walk away, run away with all the medals and you can’t do anything about it."

"If I had known this system was so rigged & officials were so blatantly ignoring the facts & the law & WADA code, I would probably not have put Alysa in skating. Why would you want to put your kids into a sport that is so obviously rigged?
Not only rigged by the skaters & coaches but also by the officials!"

Arthur says Kamila should be held responsible even though she is 15. "Alysa has been tested since she was 12 or 13 years old and she knows what she is supposed to take and what she’s not supposed to take. Even when she was a junior, when she was 12, during nationals she got really sick and I didn't give her any medication because of concerns of doping. I didn't even give her any medication, she was so sick."

I asked if anyone who has coached/worked with Alysa has ever brought up doping to keep up with the Russians quads:"No, no, no. Nobody, no coaches here in Alysa’s career has ever offered to dope her & I would never have allowed it. That is pure a child abuse. Child endangerment."

"Eteri started the quadruple revolution in ladies figure skating with the aid of drugs. They cause other skaters to try to match them technically, without the aid of drugs, often causing injuries to themselves! What an uneven play field!"

Also, Arthur Liu will not be watching the Russian women skate. "I am not going to watch the Russian ladies. Who cares what they do? They could land a quintuple jump, who cares!"

sore L

 

[skateboy]

sore L

Really??

Because nobody else anywhere has a problem with Valieva being allowed to continue...

 

[Karen-W]

sore L

Lolololol. Because why would ANYONE put thousands of dollars, every year, into their child's chosen sport only to find out, a decade into this journey, that your kid is competing against someone (maybe multiple someones from one country) who dopes?

Maybe you would feel differently if it was your own money funding your kid in sport rather than the government's?

 

[VGThuy]

sore L

Well then, he and she join the club of many other competing and past skaters (some of whom are champions themselves).

 

[MacMadame]

We desperately need a emoji on the like button.

 

[Tahuu]

Arthur did sound a bit sour grape and I don't think he has definitive evidence. Kamila may dope or may be doped but there's still a possibility Anna and Sasha didn't dope. I remain amazed at them and their skills.

 

[Aussie Willy]

Chatting to friends who know nothing about skating last night. They all knew about it.

So will this be the end of Russia being able to compete in the Olympics in future?

 

[Lara111]

Lolololol. Because why would ANYONE put thousands of dollars, every year, into their child's chosen sport only to find out, a decade into this journey, that your kid is competing against someone (maybe multiple someones from one country) who dopes?

Maybe you would feel differently if it was your own money funding your kid in sport rather than the government's?

I funded believe you or not, for many years with my own money. It just some turn out to be great and very successful but others do not. Its sad but its life. Parents should accept it

 

[skategal]

In the words of one of my friends who was a professional athlete when speaking about an Olympic champion from
the past (not in skating).

“We could all do what X did if we ate what they ate for breakfast.”

 

[overedge]

I funded believe you or not, for many years with my own money. It just some turn out to be great and very successful but others do not. Its sad but its life. Parents should accept it

I would guess most parents would be pretty annoyed if their skater had been told not to dope, and then ended up in a competition against a skater who had an advantage because that skater was doping.

 

[Sylvia]

Henry Bushnell really has been churning out articles for Yahoo! Sports (this is English-speaking-skaters-centric and if someone finds a similar article in the Japanese press that quotes Japanese skaters re. the team event medal ceremony not happeing in Beijing, please share):

Innocent bystanders punished by cancellation of Olympic medal ceremonies

There are countless ramifications of the Kamila Valieva scandal, including her competitors being denied a podium ceremony.

sports.yahoo.com

Karen Chen had dreamt of the moment. She'd watched it from afar over the years, at various Olympics and across various sports. She'd seen athletes ascend to podiums in slick tracksuits, with pride on their faces and teammates by their sides. She'd craved it, and she earned it last week when she and eight other U.S. figure skaters won silver in the team event.
But she never got it. And, she learned Tuesday, she never will.
She'll get a medal. It might be silver. It might be gold. The color will depend on a resolution in the Kamila Valieva case. But with that resolution likely months away, the IOC executive board decided Monday to withhold medals until Valieva is either cleared or convicted, and Russia either crowned or disqualified.
So Chen and her American teammates will not get their moment. And that, she said, was "definitely upsetting." And "disappointing."

Even if the medal she received turned out to be the wrong one, or even if the ceremony featured no medals at all, "to just stand on the podium in our medal ceremony outfits, I think that's just such a special moment," she said. She'd treasure it.
"I wish we got to have [it]," she said.
There are countless ramifications of the Valieva scandal. Several are more significant than this one. But the IOC's decision to cancel two medal ceremonies — for the team event, which Valieva and Russia won; and for the women's singles competition, which Valieva will likely win — has harmed innocent bystanders and saddened them. Chief among them is Team USA.
Even if the medal she received turned out to be the wrong one, or even if the ceremony featured no medals at all, "to just stand on the podium in our medal ceremony outfits, I think that's just such a special moment," she [Karen Chen] said. She'd treasure it.
"I wish we got to have [it]," she said.

"I know all the people in the team want to receive the medals here as a team," U.S. ice dancer Madison Hubbell said Monday. "If we miss that opportunity, it's huge disappointment."

The decision has even upset skaters unaffected by it.
"I feel sorry for anyone who gets on the podium," Great Britain's Natasha McKay said Tuesday. "They won't get that experience, and it is such a big part of the Olympic Games — to get the medals."
Switzerland's Alexia Paganini agreed: "I feel sorry for the skaters who have a chance at a medal — that you can't have your moment in front of the whole world."

AP sources: US skaters to get Olympic torches as medals wait:

AP sources: US skaters to get Olympic torches as medals wait

IOC president Thomas Bach has offered U.S. figure skaters Olympic torches as holdover gifts while they await a resolution of the Russian doping case preventing them from receiving their silver medals.

apnews.com

IOC president Thomas Bach offered U.S. figure skaters Olympic torches as holdover gifts while they await a resolution of the Russian doping case that is preventing them from receiving their silver medals, The Associated Press has learned.
Two people familiar with the events told AP late Wednesday that Bach, in a private meeting with the skaters in Beijing, reiterated the IOC stance that no medals ceremonies would be held for events involving Russian figure skater Kamila Valieva. The people did not want their names used because the meeting was confidential.
Officials from the International Olympic Committee did not immediately respond to an email query from AP.

The nine-person U.S. team stands to at least get silver but could end up with the gold if Valieva is disqualified. The skaters had already received boxes for storing their medals when they learned the ceremony was off.
The people familiar with the meeting said torches used during the traditional Olympic flame relay had already been given to team staff to be presented later to the athletes.
After the CAS decision, U.S. Olympic and Paralympic CEO Sarah Hirshland said the federation was “disappointed by the message this decision sends” and suggested athletes were denied the confidence of knowing they competed on a level playing field.
Neither USOPC officials nor officials at U.S. Figure Skating immediately responded to emails from AP seeking comment.

I assume Thomas Bach will meet/has met with JOC/JSF representatives about this as well and hopefully the Japanese skaters will be/have been offered "Olympic torches as holdover gifts" too.

 

[overedge]

Arthur did sound a bit sour grape and I don't think he has definitive evidence. Kamila may dope or may be doped

"May?" She and her camp haven't challenged the result of the doping test. All they've done is "explain" how the dope got into her system.

 

[Aussie Willy]

I assume Thomas Bach will meet/has met with JOC/JSF representatives about this as well and hopefully the Japanese skaters will be/have been offered "Olympic torches as holdover gifts" too.

They will only give them those evil looking little pandas. #potentialzombiepandas

 

[Sylvia]

They will only give them those evil looking little pandas. #potentialzombiepandas

Japan's team members already have those pandas -- here's a great photo: https://twitter.com/Japan_Olympic/status/1493872790302253056

 

[Aussie Willy]

Japan's team members already have those pandas -- here's a great photo: https://twitter.com/Japan_Olympic/status/1493872790302253056

They are still really scary and could come to life any moment.

 

[Mayra]

I assume Thomas Bach will meet/has met with JOC/JSF representatives about this as well and hopefully the Japanese skaters will be/have been offered "Olympic torches as holdover gifts" too.

Per the IOC briefing today with Mark Adams, the JOC "...fully accepted the IOC's approach to the situation. That's the reason there was no meeting with their athletes, but they are fully in agreement that any discussion should be up to the athletes concerned."

The question that led to this answer was asked by a Japanese reporter and starts around 23:24:

https://youtu.be/jmxSYLJ7JWM?t=1404

It seems like USOPC on behalf of their athletes, stomped their foot hard enough that Bach gave them a consolation prize to tide them over.